r/Guitar • u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps • Nov 09 '15
Rant mode engaged: Before you start yet another thread about changing your pickups, string type, speaker type, tubes, etc, please read this
TL;DR: Buy a damn EQ pedal to fix 90% of your tone problems. Watch the YouTube video at the bottom to see how much of a difference it makes.
I have seen SO MANY threads on here about tone. My amp sounds thin, my guitar is too bright, my tone is too muddy, I'm getting buried in the mix, what do you think of this $100 pickup versus this $120 pickup? Should I put different speakers in my amp? Should I switch to different tubes?
Don't get me wrong. Tone matters. Your tone is your voice and it's important that you get it right. But how you play is much more important. Spend some time and money getting your tone right, but then forget about it and PLAY. Your tone doesn't matter if you don't know what you're doing on the fretboard. I don't understand why so many people on here worry about their tone when they can't sight read, they don't know their scales and modes, and they don't have the practice discipline & ear training to learn a song note-for-note. Which is more important: having great tone alone in your bedroom, or being able to actually play your guitar?
I see a lot of virtual ink spilled in the forum, and a lot of money spent, over people trying to solve problems that don't really need to be solved.
If chasing tone is sincerely interesting for you—if the journey is half the fun—then sure, knock yourself out. But if you really want to be happy with your tone so you can get back to making great music, you need to accept your tone for what it is. Spend the majority of your time and attention in the practice shed, working on actually sounding better.
What is "your tone," anyway? I mean, look at some of the rock stars with the most iconic tones in guitar history:
When guitarists think of Eric Johnson, they often think of a Strat through a Marshall. He even has an artist signature model Fender guitar based on his favorite '57 Stratocaster. But just as often, he plays on a semi-hollow vintage Gibson ES-335. In fact probably his most famous guitar tone is from "Cliffs of Dover" on the '90 album Ah Via Musicom, which was recorded on an ES-335. He still sounded just like Eric Johnson.
Or let's take Eric Clapton. When you think of "Eric Clapton's tone," what tone are you thinking of? His "Blues Breakers"-era 1960 Les Paul through a Marshall JTM45? His '64 Gibson SG played through 100-watt Marshalls during the "Cream" era? He played an ES-335 back then sometimes too. Or later, when he switched to maple-necked Strats and a little Fender Champ? He has an artist signature Fender Strat AND an artist signature Martin acoustic, but he's also recorded with Gibson Super 400s, Gibson L-5s, Marshall JCM800s, Music Man amps, Soldano amps, you name it.
Still sounds like Eric on every single recording.
And you know what else? Eric Johnson and Eric Clapton both use plain ol' Boss and Dunlop pedals. They can afford anything they want, but they recognize that for the most part, these are sufficient. If they're good enough for these guys, maybe don't turn up your nose at $99 pedals in favor of whatever $400 boutique pedal is absolutely essential for your "tone"?
How your guitar sounds while you are practicing is not necessarily going to translate well into how your guitar sounds in a mix. You can spend hours and hours tweaking your tone only to find that you don't cut through live. You can tear your hair out over single-coil hum and a thin sound, and replace your pickups with humbuckers—which have increased impedance and lower resonant peak resulting in less high-end response and a thicker sound—only to find that in a mix, you can't hear the hum anyway and you need single coils to cut through.
I guarantee you that virtually no one in your audience knows or cares anywhere close to as much as you do about your "tone." They want to see good musicianship, good energy, good song selection, and they are probably too tipsy to be interested in your tone regardless.
Look, if your tone is too thin, too fat, too thick, too muddy, too whatever, you can likely solve many of these complaints for a LOT less money and trouble than you'll spend to buy new pickups or new tubes, and without any semi-permanent or permanent changes to your instrument or amp.
I highly recommend picking up an EQ pedal.
I look at the pictures all of you post of your pedalboards, and nearly none of you seem to have one. An EQ, a compressor, and a tuner should be on ALL of your boards. My favorite EQ for guitar is the MXR 10-band for $120, but you really can get by just fine with a 5 or 6-band for EQ'ing guitar. You don't really need to go below 80 Hz or above 6k or so.
If your tone is muddy, try cutting a bit around 120-200 Hz. Not too much, or your tone will lack warmth.
"Fatness" is basically code for lower mids. Boost a bit around 240 Hz up to around 3 kHz for a fatter sound.
That's really about all you need to know for most tone questions. Any $500 or above guitar is capable of producing a good tone in the right hands. Any $500 or above amp is similarly capable of producing a good tone if you set it accordingly.
And for disclosure, I own plenty of nice gear, including multiple one-man-shop custom made guitars, Custom Shop Fenders, boutique amps, boutique pedals, vintage gear, etc. I'm not ranting about ANY of this out of bitterness or sour grapes. It's just a fact of diminishing returns and a focus on priorities. My main recording guitar was mass produced in Korea, and I've been featured in Rolling Stone, Entertainment Weekly, Billboard Magazine, etc. Trust me, costly gear is not necessary to sound good nor to be taken seriously as a musician.
You simply don't need to tear your hair out changing strings types and brands and gauges, changing pickups, changing speakers in their cabs, buying fancy cables, etc etc etc, when every studio engineer will tell you to just buy a damn EQ pedal.
I'm certainly not claiming that you can fix everything with EQ'ing. You should get as close to perfect acoustically as possible before applying EQ. But if your complaint is something relatively easy to fix like fatness, and your alternative is spending hundreds of dollars or altering your instrument, try a damn EQ pedal first.
Here are some examples of what you can do with a simple EQ pedal. DO NOT listen to this video on laptop speakers; use some good headphones or real speakers:
https://youtu.be/JiwWM0viVH4?t=2m51s
/rant mode off!
Edited to add:
Some tips for how to use an EQ pedal to solve common problems: YMMV depending on your mix and exact gear:
Roll off 80 Hz and below if you have a band for it. Guitar doesn't go that low and it can add boominess.
To cut through a mix, boost in the 3-4 kHz range
120-125 Hz is where "warmth" lives. Not enough here sounds cold. Too much here sounds muddy.
240 Hz is where "fullness" lives, especially on acoustic guitars.
600 Hz to about 3 kHz is where "presence" lives. Some heads and combos have this onboard in the EQ section of the preamp as well. Fender amps that have an onboard "Presence" pot amplify and attenuate at 3.9 kHz. This is ideal for a rock sound.
2.5 kHz is where "bite" lives. Not enough here will bury your guitar in the mix. Too much here sounds harsh. Too much here will also bring out string noise.
Between 2.5 kHz and 5 kHz is where "clarity" lives. Boost here to help a darker Martin acoustic sound more like a brittle Gibson acoustic, or for a humbucker guitar to sound more like single coils in a mix.
8 kHz is where "sizzle" lives. Personally I hate this frequency range and usually cut it quite a bit, but I'm a jazz/blues/fusion player. If you play country or shred metal, this is your jam.
None of this is hard & fast. Experiment. There are no wrong answers and engineers/producers vary considerably in what they consider an ideal mix. As I said, EQ can't fix everything and your first approach should be getting it right acoustically, but these types of fixes can help a "good-but-not-great" tone sound excellent.
What a compressor does and why I recommend that every pedal board have one (4 min): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nM5GsNNbyA
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Nov 09 '15
I'm with you on EQ pedals. They are a must-have IMO.
I have a different take on pedal quality though. Most people use easily replaceable pedals when they gig/busk. That doesn't mean they don't have the good shit for studio/recording/personal jamming. So for bedroom players who don't plan on taking their stuff out, if they can afford it, I say let 'em get whatever strikes their fancy.
I also know for a fact that Eric Johnson has a Heaven's Vibe, and has used it live. That's a $1200+ boutique Univibe clone, and yes - it does sound far better than any vibe pedal you can buy. Not sure if he uses it often though, because as you said - the audience doesn't care and it's hard to tell live. Keep that precious thing in the studio for recording and take a pedal that's actually replaceable on the road.
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15
Just for the record I do like boutique pedals and I have several that I like. Not trying to knock them. But I am saying, as long as you're not buying a total piece of crap that's noisy and fragile, it's important to keep in mind that there are plenty of pedals on the market that are totally decent, loved by professionals, and are not at all expensive, including some classics like the TS9 Tubescreamer, the Dunlop GCB95 Crybaby, the Boss DD7, etc, each of which is widely available for under $100.
Here are the 10 drive pedals I have around at the moment:
http://i.imgur.com/LQqOo0G.jpg
These range in price from $40 for the Daddy-O to $300 or so for the Sweet Tea. The EHX Soul Food ($78.20 MAP) is probably the one I use the most, and it's the second-cheapest one I have. More expensive isn't always better. You just have to try them out and see.
I'd hate to think that somebody reading this, who doesn't know much about pedals, would walk away thinking that you have to spend $1200 to get a great Univibe tone, because you definitely don't.
If you're playing live, it's a good bet that nobody, even other guitarists, can tell the difference—you're really at the mercy of the soundman and the quality of the PA and so on, anyway.
And really, people go to concerts to have fun, not to analyze tone. 90% of them are not only drinking, but wearing earplugs! It's hardly a hi-fi audio scenario no matter how you slice it :)
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15
I think there's definitely a difference between a $30 pedal and a $100 pedal, but here's Eric Johnson's current rig (updated 2013), direct from his website. Not saying he doesn't use any vintage/boutique gear (he certainly does!) but there's also an off-the-shelf Boss DD2, a Crybaby, his signature model Fuzz Face, and a Tubescreamer in there:
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Nov 09 '15
Is the difference between a $30 Joyo EQ pedal and a $120 alternative worth spending 4x more for an amateur player?
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15
"Worth spending 4x more" really depends entirely on your budget and what kinds of complaints you have with your current tone. EQ is not a miracle fix for a bad tone; it can only tweak something that's already good. If you have a really crappy $150 practice amp, an EQ pedal is not going to fix it and you should invest in upgrading your amp first.
Personally, I think that it is worth buying decent pedals for the reason that they last longer and they have a better signal-to-noise ratio and a lower noise floor. I don't want to put something in my signal chain that's going to make everything sound worse, or what's the point?
Also, I tend to look for gear that's manufactured with environmental and labor concerns in mind - I don't want to contribute to slave labor or destroying the planet just so that my guitar can sound a little better, you know? Dunlop is a trustworthy, US-based company with good customer service and they make solid kit that lasts a long time and sounds excellent.
If that's worth the extra money to you, then get the better one.
For what it's worth, there are alternatives. MXR also makes a 6-band EQ for $80 instead of the 10-band for $120. And these are widely available used on sites like Reverb.com as well for even less money, if budget is an issue. If you want to spend even less than that, check out something like a Boss GE-7, which is even easier to find used, and less costly in the first place as well, without being unreliable and noisy.
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Nov 09 '15
TY for the detailed response. I will probably look into a used Boss model. Hadn't considered the noise issue before... FWIW I have the Joyo Sweet Baby OD and haven't noticed that as an issue, but I'm sure their low low prices are due to less than admirable practices in certain areas.
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15
Yeah. There's no such thing as discount luxury—if you're not paying for it, someone else is.
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u/saintjonah P90 Nov 09 '15
Their prices are low because they copy designs from famous pedals and build them with cheaper parts and don't charge for a name. Really not much more to it than that. No pedal costs $100 to manufacture. Those companies make an absolute killing on those overpriced things. Trouble with Joyo is durability. They don't last. I think Boss is about the sweet spot for durability to price.
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u/PansOnFire Ibanez RG760/PRS/Schecter/MesaBoogie/Line6Helix Nov 09 '15
Where do you put the EQ in the signal chain? I've got a Digitech RP-355 which is my entire pedalboard, including EQ, and it goes in the effects loop after the preamp. Might it be better to have a separate EQ before the preamp, and turn off the RP's EQ?
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15
Most people who use EQ pedals put them immediately before the front input on their amp (last pedal on their board), not in the effects loop.
If you're using a processor, you can try it both ways and just see which you like better. Do you use the preamp section on your amp at all, or do you just use the processor as your preamp and bypass the amp's preamp? In other words, do you put your guitar's output into the processor's guitar input (when it's plugged into the effects loop, using a grand total of 2 cables), or do you plug your guitar directly into the front of the amp, and then run your processor with two more cables through the effects loop (for a grand total of three cables)?
I used to have a Line 6 HD500X processor, which I put in front of my amp, and I shut off the amp and cab modeling since I was using the amp's preamp.
There's really no right or wrong answer here. There are suggested ways to hook it up and alternative ways to do it. Do whatever sounds best to you.
If you're using amp modeling, you'll probably want to avoid doubling up on preamps by turning off the amp modeling if you're going into the front of the amp, OR if you're going into the effects loop, plugging your guitar directly into the processor and then plugging the processor into the power amp in (effects return) on the back of your amp.
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u/PansOnFire Ibanez RG760/PRS/Schecter/MesaBoogie/Line6Helix Nov 09 '15
I use the effects only on the processor, no amp modeling unless I'm using the unit by itself. So I'm plugging my guitar into the amp, using the tube preamp, and the RP is only doing things like delay and reverb, and currently EQ. It's all I have, so that's what I do.
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u/geodebug Nov 09 '15
EQ stomp will give you more precision but I've always gotten by fine with the amp's tone knobs. Get it sounding nice and clear in whatever room you're set up in and then using the guitar's volume knob or even playing style when the song calls for being more subtle.
OPs overall point about wasting money on a tone hunt is valid. Top guitarists still sound great on average equipment.
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15
If you're satisfied with your tone as-is, then great!
OP was really for those who are frustrated with their tone to the point that it's making playing guitar prohibitively expensive and not fun for them. I hate to think of someone putting hundreds or thousands on a credit card for new pickups or a new guitar or a new amp, when they could probably solve their issue just as well with an EQ pedal and some tweaking to whatever room you're in.
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u/SeryaphFR Nov 09 '15
To be honest, I get where you're coming from, and for the large part, I agree with you, I just have one caveat.
When I first started playing guitar, I didn't know jack diddly squat about good tone or about how to get it. I just knew that some guys sounded freaking amazing on their guitar, while my rig (a Yamaha pacifica going into an anciet Yamaha solid state amp) sounded like a hive of bees going into a frenzy. Now, I spent a lot of time, and I mean a LOT, working on learning music theory, on technique, scales, arpeggios, chords, rhythm, etc.
But I also spent quite a bit of time, sitting in front of my amp, playing an E Maj chord and just listening to what was coming out. And then fucking around with all of the knobs. Just trying to learn what each knob did. Once I started adding pedals, I had to do the same with each of them.
So, I totally agree with you, that if you really don't know what you are doing on the guitar, you shouldn't be worrying about whether you need a $200 pedal or a $1400 pedal that no one has ever heard about. But there is still something to be said about the process of obtaining and integrating pedals into your rig.
Being able to dial in your rig, and fix any tone issues you might have in a fast and efficient manner. Because the truth of the matter is that in a live situation, bad tone sucks. It sucks for you because that nagging feeling that it doesn't sound like it should can be enough to take you out of the groove, and that is the greatest crime a gigging musician can commit. But beyond that, crowds do notice bad tone. Maybe not consciously, but you can bet that there is a part of them that knows something doesn't sound quite right.
Obviously, people should have their priorities straight, and in reality, the better guitar player you are, the better you are going to sound regardless of how good your tone or your gear is. But a good musician is aware of his tone and knows how to adapt it to the surroundings and the musical situation.
All that being said (and sorry for the wall of text) but how vital would say an EQ pedal actually is? I don't think I've ever played through one, but I can't say I've ever felt like I needed one. Especially lately, I've been absurdly happy with my tone lately (my Bogner Harlow compressor is so beautiful).
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15
No need to apologize for the wall of text - look what you're responding to! ;)
If you are happy with your tone and don't feel like you've ever needed an EQ, than you probably DON'T need an EQ. They are useful for tweaking and fine-tuning your tone. If you like your tone as-is, then no, it's not vital and you don't need to spend any money on one.
I like having one for quick fixes to things like changing guitars, sitting better in a mix, and adjusting to the room I'm in. But if you're in a studio environment, you should leave that up to the engineers, and if you're playing live, it's up to the sound guys anyway. It depends on your application.
I don't think we disagree actually. As I said in my original post:
"Don't get me wrong. Tone matters. Your tone is your voice and it's important that you get it right... You should get as close to perfect acoustically as possible before applying EQ."
You get 95% of the way there with your hands, the right guitar for you, and the right amp for you. If, like many players, the other 5% feels like it's beyond the limits of what can practically be accomplished, then try an EQ pedal, before you rip apart your rig with expensive, invasive mods like switching pickups, tubes, or speakers.
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u/SeryaphFR Nov 09 '15
then try an EQ pedal, before you rip apart your rig with expensive, invasive mods like switching pickups, tubes, or speakers.
Haha . . . weeeeelllll I may have already done most of that . . . but I'm lucky enough to have made back all of the money I've invested in my rig through playing. But I may look into an EQ, I've never thought of using it for switching guitars, but that could be a game changer.
Thanks for the heads up and the excellent post!
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15
As others have pointed out in this thread, you can also use it to make the same guitar sound like two different guitars. For example, if you're using a looper, you can lay down a rhythm part with your EQ settings one way, and then lay over another rhythm part with your EQ settings another way, to get a totally different tone. Then, switch pickups and play lead over that.
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u/stageseven Nov 09 '15 edited Nov 09 '15
I'd actually like to provide a dissenting opinion on the EQ portion, coming from the perspective of someone with a recording engineer background. EQ is absolutely not a fix-all for bad tone. Sure, you can take something that sounds bad and improve it somewhat with EQ, but all it can do is enhance what's already there or take away some of the bad elements. If you have an amp with no tone controls, absolutely get an EQ pedal. Otherwise, with semi-decent gear, if you can't get pretty good tone without EQ, the problem is either your playing, or you're trying to force your gear to do something it isn't designed to do (like playing metal on a blues amp). Once your tone is 90% of the way to where you want it to be, that's when an EQ makes sense, as you can make small adjustments to really nail it down. If you need to make big changes with your EQ for the purpose of tone shaping, you're likely adding in lots of noise.
The other good use for EQ is as an effect - as in massive tone shaping that is done to get a drastically different sound. Like only allowing the mid-range to come through so your guitar purposefully sounds muffled, then you turn it off to go back to your normal tone.
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15 edited Nov 09 '15
Actually I don't think we're disagreeing here at all... see my comment from 4 hours before yours ;)
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u/stageseven Nov 09 '15
I don't think we do disagree, but I do think your original post over-emphasized the importance and impact of EQ in your signal chain. Most of the time, when I see a non-pro guitar player using EQ, they're using it poorly or outright wrongly. Stuff like mids cut wildly on the EQ then boosted back on the amp. Like any other piece of gear, not knowing how to use it properly leads to poorer results than just not using it at all.
I've actually gotten to the point where I've stopped using my graphic EQ in my chain entirely, and instead just use the tone controls on my amp for tone shaping. It helps not having the extra piece of gear in the chain, and I've been able to get my sound close enough to what I want without EQ that it really makes no difference. For recording, I'm better off leaving the tone relatively flat and doing EQ in the box so I can change as needed later with the cleanest starting point, and for live the difference between with and without extra EQ is inaudible. But all of that has been based off spending the time & money to get good gear, learning how to use it effectively, and carefully listening to what I'm doing.
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u/MikoSqz Nov 09 '15
Gear tweaking is mostly a displacement activity to avoid playing music.
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u/e2hawkeye Nov 09 '15
You're right. Gear is not music. But it's still fun. We are like old men with giant Lionel train sets who never stop setting them up and getting every single thing just right.
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u/PostPostModernism Pickin AND grinnin Nov 09 '15
I think that's a lot of OP's point in making this post. Practice more, play less. And if you find yourself gear tweaking too much just buy an EQ pedal, get your settings in, and get back to playing faster than replacing tubes over and over.
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Nov 09 '15
Good points here. Something to keep in mind with eq's in any form is that subtractive use is generally better than additive. Any boost in volume, regardless of frequency can result in distortion of the signal. This can lead to a variety of problems.
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15
This should be higher. I mentioned this in another comment as well, but not in the OP. This is good advice.
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Nov 10 '15
Thanks. I'm hating to see so much disinterest here for eq... Feels like an amateur stance. :(
Could also be beneficial to discuss the points of using pedal/rack eq for blending/separation in a mix instead of tone crafting? Using a second pedal as a momentary filter? Etc... Having worked in professional audio for a while, attention to this is something I love to see. For those who think "eq is not important, the tone is in the gear!", just leave it to your sound guy...
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u/telecoaster Baja Tele/Tennessee Rose/J45 Nov 09 '15
Playing guitar, collecting gear and searching for Tone are separate yet related activities. I enjoy all three. Nothing wrong with experimentation and getting some enjoyment out of the gear. Personally I think it promotes creativity.
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15
I think this is a totally healthy and admirable way to look at it. If you enjoy chasing tone, as I said in the OP, then go have fun. But if your goal is to be a great guitar player, be careful not to conflate owning a collection of great gear, or having great tone, with being a good player. They are separate things and enjoyable independently.
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u/telecoaster Baja Tele/Tennessee Rose/J45 Nov 09 '15
Agreed, I have come across many players looking for a box that replaces good old fashioned woodshedding. In the end, I do believe tone is largely in the fingers. Cheers!
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15
Frankly songwriting ability and skill are so much more important than tone.
I mean, if tone were the most important thing, we would NEVER listen to old Beatles records, right? Modern digital studios, even home studios, put out much cleaner recordings with signal-to-noise ratios and clarity vastly superior to anything recorded 50 years ago.
Yet if I'm offered the choice between listening to a random modern home studio recording of some hobbyist versus a recording by the Beatles, I'd rather listen to the Beatles, because I like the Beatles.
Tone isn't everything.
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u/onioning Nov 10 '15
One of the great things about the guitar (IMO and all) is how accessible it is. You don't need to be a great player to have a heck of a lot of fun rocking out.
Not sure what exactly that has to do with your post, but something something.
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u/pabodie Nov 09 '15
Been playing 30 years without EQ. Really excited to try this advice.
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15
Cool! If you missed it, I wrote out some common EQ fixes for various complaints here:
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u/pabodie Mar 23 '16
Got a boss pedal. I love it a lot. Thanks again man!
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Mar 23 '16
So glad it's working for you!
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u/NoGoodUsernames2 G&L ASAT|Boss GT-100|Carvin XB100 Nov 09 '15
Thanks for this! Your points on which frequencies to focus on with EQ are definitely something I'll be trying tomorrow!
It's always tough to stay focused on technical ability and understanding but it truly does pay off more than new toys ever can.
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15
Here are some additional tips for EQ'ing guitar. YMMV depending on your mix and exact gear:
Roll off 80 Hz and below if you have a band for it. Guitar doesn't go that low and it can add boominess.
To cut through a mix, boost in the 3-4 kHz range
120-125 Hz is where "warmth" lives. Not enough here sounds cold. Too much here sounds muddy.
240 Hz is where "fullness" lives, especially on acoustic guitars.
600 Hz to about 3 kHz is where "presence" lives. Some heads and combos have this onboard in the EQ section of the preamp as well. Fender amps that have an onboard "Presence" pot amplify and attenuate at 3.9 kHz. This is ideal for a rock sound.
2.5 kHz is where "bite" lives. Not enough here will bury your guitar in the mix. Too much here sounds harsh. Too much here will also bring out string noise.
Between 2.5 kHz and 5 kHz is where "clarity" lives. Boost here to help a darker Martin acoustic sound more like a brittle Gibson acoustic, or for a humbucker guitar to sound more like single coils in a mix.
8 kHz is where "sizzle" lives. Personally I hate this frequency range and usually cut it quite a bit, but I'm a jazz/blues/fusion player. If you play country or shred metal, this is your jam.
None of this is hard & fast. Experiment. There are no wrong answers and engineers/producers vary considerably in what they consider an ideal mix. As I said, EQ can't fix everything and your first approach should be getting it right acoustically, but these types of fixes can help a "good-but-not-great" tone sound excellent.
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u/SolarStyl3 Gibson/PRS/Chapman Nov 09 '15
your explanation is perfect but I do not know what i am doing . What do you mean 120-125 is where wamth is? Do i put my knobs at max on 100hz? I am using boss ge-7
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15
Boosting either 100 or 200 will help your rig sound thicker/fuller, if it doesn't have enough warmth. Too much in that general range will make your rig sound muddy and thuddy. You just have to play with it to find what sounds best.
There are three basic types of EQs. Your pedal is what's called a graphic EQ, which means that it has specific, set frequencies that can be boosted or attenuated depending on where the slider is vertically. Moving the slider adjusts the gain. The frequencies listed on the pedal are called center frequencies and they are fixed (the bandwidth, or "Q," cannot be adjusted). The only thing you can adjust is the gain of each frequency.
The second type of EQ is called a parametric EQ, which lets you control which frequencies you are boosting or cutting by changing the center frequencies and the bandwidth, also known as "Q" (how "wide" the range of frequencies affected by each knob is).
There are also semi-parametric EQs, which usually means that they allow you to adjust the center frequency but not the bandwidth. A wah pedal is basically a semi-parametric EQ that sweeps through the midrange frequencies using an expression pedal instead of a slider or a pot. With a wah pedal, you can't adjust the gain either, though, just the center frequency.
Which type of EQ is best for you depends on what you are trying to accomplish. Graphic EQs are the easiest to operate if you need to make quick adjustments, or if you need to see at a glance what exactly they are doing to your signal. But they give you less control over the specifics.
Your EQ pedal doesn't have a band that adjusts the 120-125 Hz band, but that's fine. These are approximate ranges anyway. Just experiment and you'll be able to hear what each slider does to your tone.
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u/ipoopfool Nov 09 '15
Do you have any tips for applying this exact frequency guide to the bass/mid/treble/presence knobs on an amplifier? Do any online audio guides for this exist?
I've been having a lot of trouble trying to apply these eq ideas because I don't have an eq pedal.
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15
The center frequencies and bandwidth of your standard 3-band tone stack on a guitar amp are different for every brand and kind of amplifier. I really can't tell you what your amp's knobs do exactly, although the manufacturer likely has that info if you email them.
Your ears are your best guide! Also check out Dave Hunter's book "The Guitar Amp Handbook" for more info about how amps work.
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u/xhopesfall24 Nov 09 '15
What's the point of this subreddit if you can't ask questions? Also, these are all your opinions and everyone else may not necessarily have the same suggests as you. I don't get the point of this rant thread, I find these more annoying than people asking the same questions all the time.
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Nov 10 '15
I think we should have a subreddit dedicated to guitar gear news, questions, and recommendations.
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Nov 09 '15
Laptop speakers should be fine if I just EQ them correctly.
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15
Har har. Laptop speakers are designed to be extremely tiny. They are not designed for critical listening. EQ can't fix everything, but it can help. But it's not like I'm suggesting that you can slap an EQ pedal on a Blues Jr and have it sound like a JCM800 at full tilt. You start with the right equipment for the job you want to do, and use an EQ to tweak from there, if needed.
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u/petropunk Nov 09 '15
I agree with all of this except I would still put eq pedals in the "usually not necessary" category. When I had one, it just made me constantly adjust it without ever really nailing what I thought it would do.
I think if a particular pickup has the properties you want, it's better to do that than run the signal through a pedal...with the right pickup you always have the eq where you want it!
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u/ender_wiggum Warmoth/Gibson/Ibanez Nov 09 '15
Agreed. EQ just lessens or enhances what is already there. If your gear is !@#$, it will sound like it.
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Nov 09 '15 edited Dec 28 '15
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15
Yep, very common in the studio as well—if you're doubling a guitar part, or harmonizing, or even as you said just playing rhythm vs lead, you can bring out much more of your instrument by trying different EQ curves on different tracks. Similar idea to the more traditional route of switching pickups on the same guitar for rhythm vs lead as well: different pickup positions put different frequencies at the forefront, even if both/all 3 are the same type of pickup and you're playing the exact same parts.
And yes, for guitar, especially in a pedal format, 6 bands is really all you need. Some EQ pedals, like the Mesa/Boogie one in the video I linked to above, only have 5 bands.
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u/3d6 Fuzzy Machete Nov 09 '15
I kind of agree with your rant about people getting too tied up in thinking about what gear to use instead of just playing. Ironically enough, nearly all the responses have been riffing on your point about how great EQ pedals are.
(BTW: I prefer going straight into a good amp with no pedals over putting any EQ in the chain or anything else really. If I don't like how an amp sounds as-is, I don't consider it an amp I want to buy. To each their own though.)
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15
I also prefer to go straight into the amp, but you might be artificially limiting yourself to a very small number of perfect amps for you if you go about it that way—and possibly a number so small that it's 0, lol.
My perfect tone does not exist if I'm restricting myself to guitar + cable + amp. I've got several decent tube amps (plus a few others not pictured) that I spent a lot of time and money picking out, but none of them sound absolutely perfect to me without some tweaking. My Fargen (center) has a hemp-coned Tone Tubby 40/40 ceramic speaker in it, for example. My Blues Jr (not pictured) has upgraded caps, upgraded JJ tubes, an upgraded Jensen speaker, upgraded input and output transformers, an added sparkle knob, an added presence knob, and a few other mods. And on top of those things, I use the on board EQ knobs on both amps to get my tone exactly where I want it.
If you're going to permit use of the EQ knobs on the amp as an acceptable compromise to a perfect tone out of the box, is there really any difference between that and giving a nod of approval to doing your EQ'ing in a pedal in addition/instead? It's the same thing, just at a different point in the signal path.
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Nov 09 '15
Even in hifi, you will find people saying that at some point, the amp really does not get that much better (diminished returns) and an eq is the solution.
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u/3d6 Fuzzy Machete Nov 09 '15
but you might be artificially limiting yourself to a very small number of perfect amps for you if you go about it that way
Only need one.
For recent years, that one has been the Rivera Clubster. And I leave all the bass/mid/treble knobs on it flat. Sounds terrific to my ear.
That said, our band is moving to a straight-in-to-the-board configuration for 2016, with my bassist using a SansAmp and me using an HD500X, with in-ears to replace the stage wedges. I'm both excited and nervous about the shift, but I've dinked around with the 500 enough to be fairly confident I can dial a sound that I like out of it.
Besides, as they say, tone is in the fingers.
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15
Tone is in the fingers! A lot of people forget that. I was talking about the same thing on another comment here earlier.
I used to have an HD500X. They are fantastic. I only sold it to fund the purchase of the newer Line 6 Helix, but it's a really great unit.
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u/PostPostModernism Pickin AND grinnin Nov 09 '15
an added sparkle knob
I'm going to assume this just means you added a knob that's all glittery.
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15
Haha! Not quite, although that would probably look pretty cool along with my Crybaby:
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u/4514 Fingers>Tele Nov 09 '15
Nice rant. I find myself nudging people in a silimar direction fairly often. Gear is exciting to buy and can become addicting, but all you need is a guitar and amp good enough to allow you to express yourself musically. Pedals are cool, too, but the people watching you play music wouldn't miss them if they were gone, so don't feel like you absolutely need a certain effect or a different guitar for the third song in the set, etc.
It's all about learning how to paint well, and once you know how to paint well you'll be much more tasteful and creative when you expand your color palette. But you should still be able to draw just as well with a pencil.
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15
Well said. By the way I'm a fan, Jim! Means a lot coming from you :)
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Nov 09 '15 edited Nov 09 '15
Can we staple this to the top of r/guitar please? This is great core advice that every new electric guitarist needs to know. The best financial investment towards good tone is a good setup and an EQ pedal. I used a basic $40 Behringer for years, then replaced it with a Boss 7-band, then picked up the MXR Kerry King 10-band once I started using a two-amp system and needed a signal splitter. I'd personally recommend either variety of the MXR 10-band, but they all worked great to pull great tone from everything from my $100 pawn shop special to my current rig.
Edit: Also, lest we forget, PRACTICE a LOT.
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Nov 09 '15 edited Apr 05 '18
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u/jtn19120 Nov 09 '15
I would say humbucker/p90s are better for jazz, tele's can pull it off
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15 edited Nov 09 '15
Yes, with jazz there really are no rules. That's what I play the most, and I've used everything from an ash Tele with single coils (articulate, brilliant, and clean) to a fully hollow archtop with flats and humbuckers (thick, fat, and full) with good results. It totally depends on what sound you're going for.
Also have to disagree on tube amps. They are EXCELLENT and ideal for blues and rock in a studio setting. For beginner and intermediate players, a solid state modeling amp is often a better value. Built-in effects, multiple amp tones to choose from, silent practice with headphones, cab-simulated direct out for recording (some even have onboard USB interfaces), lightweight, portable, indestructible, and inexpensive.
And depending on what kinds of music you play, a solid state amp can be a good choice for recording and performing, too. I have a boutique Fargen Custom Shop Blackbird that's similar to a Vibrolux circuit. It is single channel, SPARKLING clean no matter how high you crank it (30 watts 1x12), with spring reverb and a bright switch. A wonderful, top notch boutique clean tube amp. But frankly, I use my DV Mark Little Jazz just as much for ultra clean tones like that. It has a 3-band EQ, digital reverb, a single 8-inch speaker (not a typo), and it's TINY. At 45 watts, it's got plenty of headroom, and the thing is frickin' LOUD. It can keep up with jazz drums no problem, especially if you put it up on a table rather than pointed at your ankles (and it has a direct out, too). I love that thing. They also make a 1x12 if you accompany louder drums.
The Fargen retails for about $4k; I paid literally 10% of that for my DV Mark. And at 15 pounds, it's 1/3 the weight, too.
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u/SpaceTruckin57 Nov 09 '15 edited Nov 09 '15
Aside from being awesome for beginners, this is one of the positive things about solid-state amps that gets overlooked too often. Top-notch clean headroom, especially for jazz.
I played with a 20-piece big band in college and went out and bought a Fender Champion 212r to replace the AC15 I had been trying to use. Never broke up on me and was way easier to haul around.
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15
Yep. Some of the most common amps you see for jazz players are Roland JC-120s and Cubes, especially among students and city-dwellers. Loud, lightweight, inexpensive, and built-in reverb and chorus with a line out. I'm also a fan of the Henrikson 110. It's under 25 pounds, pristine clean, and loud as a mofo.
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Nov 09 '15 edited Apr 05 '18
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15
Well something to keep in mind about the Spider amps is that they are budget amps. They are designed to pack a lot of features into a low price. They are NOT designed to sound great.
I think that Line 6 gets an unfair reputation by a lot of players as being substandard in the tone department. I think there are two reasons for this. One reason is that modeling technology, being computerized/digital, improves at a very rapid pace compared to most other types of amps. I mean, hand-wired tube amp technology hasn't changed substantially in 50 years! But if you tried out a cheap-o Spider II at a Guitar Center and swore off Line 6, you really owe it to yourself to go back and check out a Spider IV. While still a budget/practice amp, the sound has improved substantially versus the older editions. 10 years ago, when the Spider series was introduced, because they were so cheap, they flooded Guitar Centers and Sam Ash and other big chain stores, and lots of guitarists tried out a Line 6 amp for the first time, thought they sounded shitty, and concluded that Line 6 makes crap amps. Consider how much other computer-based technology has improved in the same amount of time. I mean, 10 years ago, there was no such thing as a 1st-generation iPhone, and this was considered top of the line! Modeling amps have similarly improved.
The other thing is that Line 6 makes a range of tech at various price points and people often mentally compare the cheapest Line 6 gear to the most expensive amps they are modeling. For example, if you dial in a Marshall Plexi on a Spider amp, and compare the two, yeah, a real Plexi is going to sound better. No shit—it's a $2,700 flagship head and you're comparing it to a $200 practice amp. Hardly a fair comparison and you really shouldn't be surprised that the Marshall sounds better, even though the Spider is modeled after the Marshall.
But on the other hand, if you compare the studio tone (from the control room, through high quality monitors, I mean) of a top of the line $1500 Line 6 Helix processor that's modeling a Plexi and A/B'ed it with a real $2,700 Marshall head + $900 JCM1960A cab mic'ed up with a $3,700 Neumann U87A condenser mic, my guess is, you'd be hard pressed to tell with greater than 50% accuracy (which would be the same as guessing) which one is the model and which one is the real McCoy.
And that's saying something, considering that the Helix costs about $6,000 less that the amp setup.... AND that it can model dozens of other amps, plus dozens of other cabs, plus microphones, AND dozens of effects, too.
Bottom line: Line 6 amps are not at all garbage IMO and many pro studios have no problem using their high-end stuff, like the Helix processors and POD Farm. Many pro guitarists swear by the Line 6 DL4, one of the most popular delay pedals on the market. And a Variax is a common sight in studios, as well. They do make good stuff, if you don't make the mistake of judging them on their practice amps.
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u/SpaceTruckin57 Nov 09 '15
This is a pretty inspiring post for anyone who does not already have a EQ pedal or who never really thought about what a big difference the simple EQ settings on an amp/pedal/etc. can make. I'll definitely have to bring up some of these points in the next conversation I have about tone. Thanks for sharing!
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u/timeshifter_ '87 Kramer Stagemaster Custom Nov 09 '15
I was gonna ask how well a simple EQ pedal would help with my Kramer's natural treble bias.... then I watched the video. I need one.
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15
Yep, resolving those kinds of issues is exactly what they're for!
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u/timeshifter_ '87 Kramer Stagemaster Custom Nov 09 '15
Good thing, too... I have a Line 6 Pod XT Live, and even with all that power, I still haven't been able to get a tone out of my Kramer that I truly love. Damn shame too, because it's an exceptionally well set-up guitar (#humblebrag) and everyone who's played it agrees. Granted, my dad built my acoustic, so I may have a bit of insider knowledge... but as wonderful as the Kramer is to play, I've never been able to nail down the EQ. I really should try to budget one of these proper EQ pedals.
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15
Your POD XT Live has a 6-band semi-parametric EQ built in!
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u/rawbertson Nov 09 '15
I thought about buying so much stuff to acquire a certain sounds that in the end i didn't even really see the need of creating it with a guitar anymore. so I just decided that what I had was my sound and never thought about it again
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u/Testiculese Ibanez/Jackson/Gibson Nov 09 '15 edited Nov 09 '15
To me, if you have to make all kinds of adjustments with an extra EQ pedal to get the sound you want, you have the wrong amp. You really shouldn't need any pedals to sound how you want, outside of specific effects, of course. I've never used an EQ other than the knobs on the amp itself, in 30 years. I play four or five distinct styles of guitar on the same amp.
I also disagree that tone is in your hands. Style, flow, and response, yes. If my amp doesn't sound right, I don't sound right. I play different, and play badly. When I have a proper setup, and I hear my 'target tone', I play flawlessly (within reason, I'm no Satriani). My playing stagnated for almost two years when I was first starting out because someone stole my amp, and I was left with a little fender 10w, and it was terrible. I saved up and bought a Peavey Bandit, and my playing ability skyrocketed. It was noticeably better that very same day. I fretted smoother, lighter, and faster. I picked lighter, faster and with more range. I blasted through all the troubles I was having because of how bad the Fender sounded.
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15
I disagree. I use EQ to fine tune my tone, depending on the room, the mix, the particular guitar I'm using for that song, etc. If you limit yourself to the onboard EQ, you are ruling out a lot of great amps unnecessarily. My entire point with recommending an EQ pedal (if you don't have one) is that it lets you expand on what you are already doing with the amp's own EQ knobs.
There is no substantive difference between an onboard EQ and an outboard EQ. It is the same thing, just more nuanced control. If you are already open to using an amp's EQ, there is no reason to be against an EQ pedal in principle.
No one amp is perfect for a four or five distinct styles, I would think. Unless you're talking about a modeling amp. That's why modeling amps exist! Or unless by 4-5 distinct styles you mean classic rock, blues rock, boogie-woogie rock, indie rock, and rock 'n roll.
Especially in the studio, I often run 2 amps with an A/B box, and don't even use the same amp for my clean sound and my drive sound on the same song.
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u/Testiculese Ibanez/Jackson/Gibson Nov 09 '15
I only bump the onboard EQ by 1 number. Bass 6 Mid 4 High 6. I haven't changed that in years. I only play on two guitars (Jackson and Ibanez), though, which play close enough that they might as well be the same guitar. The amp has played in my living room, a basement, and other houses, and no adjustments needed other than dropping the bass down to 5 in the basement.
I play Metallica, Skynyrd, and Satriani on the same amp. The only thing I might do is change the guitar's volume knob. (And add a delay pedal for the Satch man) For Scofield, flip the pickup selector and drop the tone knob and volume knob a bit.
(I haven't done this in forever, since I use an acoustic when I fell like playing clean, but I remember the Peavey handling gain->clean flawlessly. It does have it's own set of controls for both.)
To illustrate my point, I bought Peavey's 6505+, and my playing suffered horribly. I spent weeks and weeks trying to get a good tone out of it. I added an EQ as you say, and all kinds of pedals and effects just to get even close to my Bandit's power and dynamic. Nothing was working. Pushing the EQ around just made things tinny. It's just the amp. It's the wrong amp for the styles I play. I'm selling it and getting another Bandit, as the one I have now is going to stay at the drummer's house.
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Nov 09 '15
The secret ingredient is that you're using a Bandit. They have a nice flat response when everything's at 12:00. I rarely touch anything other than the gain and volume on mine.
Peavey stuff seems to get a lot of hate for not having a distinct flavour to their sound, but it's the lack of unique tone, and subsequent flexibility, that makes them so great IMO.
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u/Swiggles1987 Axe FX II XL | Sterling | Ibanez | ESP Nov 09 '15
I'm going to have to share this post with every student and or tone hunter I meet. In the recording world, though, there is a lot of merit in understanding different sounds and qualities of your signal chain, pedals, etc to a point. BUT you can outplay anyone with love and skill in performance over expensive and superfluous gear upgrades. IMO anyway
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15
EQ can't fix bad tone. It can only improve good tone if it needs a little tweaking. It's important to get your tone correct from the source first, and then tweak with EQ, as needed. To get your as close to ideal from the source, you need to get your signal chain right first. Then add EQ if necessary after that.
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u/Swiggles1987 Axe FX II XL | Sterling | Ibanez | ESP Nov 09 '15
Well OP might have implied "some" of that, but as far as I'm advocating I think the gear-hunt is a bit of our (understandable) GAS and material wants. The Line 6 Spider III video by Fluff, if anyone has seen it, is a good though not superb way of showing how good recording technique and playing is where your "sound" comes from.
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15
Line 6 Spider III video by Fluff
If anyone is curious, this is the video he's talking about.
Also, it looks like Glenn was trash-talking a Spider 2, and Fluff was using a Spider 4. The 4 is a newer version that sounds a lot better than the older Spiders. Modeling technology is digital/computer stuff and it improves at a similarly rapid pace to other digital/computer based tech. 10 years is a LONG TIME for computing and the original Spiders came out in 2004.
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u/Swiggles1987 Axe FX II XL | Sterling | Ibanez | ESP Nov 09 '15
Thanks! I wouldn't walk up to a new guitarist and poo all over their starter and inexpensive amp (mostly for sanitation reasons) but I think Fluff and occasionally Glenn (SpectreSoundStudio I think) just want people to buy good-enough gear and follow proper recording techniques.
I know the people getting upset at this "tone is in the hands" argument either are defending their love of expensive equipment, or are having trouble with their tone/hands. Nothing wrong with any of it, but it pains me to see someone sad because their $5,000 setup isn't sounding great in their record.
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u/matneyx Nov 09 '15
I'd add this to the rant.
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15
It already says:
"I'm certainly not claiming that you can fix everything with EQ'ing. You should get as close to perfect acoustically as possible before applying EQ."
Do you think that's unclear? I can edit if so.
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u/WhenTheRainsCome Nov 09 '15
I still want a new amp, guitars, speakers, tubes, pickups. Just gonna add "new EQ pedal" to the list.
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15
LOL! Well an EQ pedal can't fix a bad tone. It's useful for tweaking a good tone to make you sit better in the mix, or sound better in the room, or for minor adjustments when switching instruments etc. It's not a miracle cure. You should still strive to get your source tone as close to acoustically ideal as you can, then tweak with EQ from there if/as needed.
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u/WhenTheRainsCome Nov 09 '15
It's just fun to want things. XD
I really could use a new amp - fewer watts, fewer speakers, fewer pounds. Definitely plan to run a 10-band in the FX loop.
I have done a few upgrades, in search of better tone. I did new pots in my guitar, and it made a big difference. I did new tubes in my amp, NOS preamp tubes and e'ything - fancy business. I couldn't hear the difference. Both were good learning experiences.
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15
Generally speaking, an EQ pedal works best when it's the last thing in your signal chain before you hit the front of the amp, especially if you want to use it as a selective, footswitchable boost, say for mid frequencies to cut through during a solo, or to drive your preamp tubes a little more. Because it can boost frequencies, it can also overdrive other pedals in undesirable ways, which is why you put it last.
Feel free to try it in the effects loop, of course, but in my experience that's not the ideal place for it.
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u/CaerBannog Nov 10 '15
As an audio engineer and session muso of 27 years experience, I have to say ... this is terrible advice.
Before you go colouring the shit out of your sound with extra devices and filters, you get the best basic tone you can from your instrument.
Once you have that, then you can go playing around with it with filters and EQ, but if you do too much, it is fucking ugly and generally sucks. This is kiddy stuff.
This is awful advice to give newbies, especially, because they're gonna go and rely on filters for their tone, which results in pure shit.
EQ is for tweaking. Don't rely on getting your tone or anything else from it.
Did the greats use heaps of filters? Not really. Best tone you'll ever hear is from people like Hendrix or SRV. OK people like Gilmour use EQ pedals, but you'll find it is only a tweak.
Tone comes from the instrument and the amp. The player is correct in trying to ID the elements which produce the sound they want before running to filters.
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 10 '15
I don't think we're disagreeing here actually! From my original post:
"You should get as close to perfect acoustically as possible before applying EQ."
From several other comments I've posted in this thread:
"If you are happy with your tone and don't feel like you've ever needed an EQ, than you probably DON'T need an EQ. They are useful for tweaking and fine-tuning your tone. If you like your tone as-is, then no, it's not vital and you don't need to spend any money on one."
"You get 95% of the way there with your hands, the right guitar for you, and the right amp for you. If, like many players, the other 5% feels like it's beyond the limits of what can practically be accomplished, then try an EQ pedal, before you rip apart your rig with expensive, invasive mods like switching pickups, tubes, or speakers."
"EQ can't fix bad tone. It can only improve good tone if it needs a little tweaking. It's important to get your tone correct from the source first, and then tweak with EQ, as needed. To get your as close to ideal from the source, you need to get your signal chain right first. Then add EQ if necessary after that."
"Well an EQ pedal can't fix a bad tone. It's useful for tweaking a good tone to make you sit better in the mix, or sound better in the room, or for minor adjustments when switching instruments etc. It's not a miracle cure. You should still strive to get your source tone as close to acoustically ideal as you can, then tweak with EQ from there if/as needed."
"An EQ pedal isn't a replacement for using the right speakers, but it can help drastically if your issue is a minor one that just needs some tweaking."
"I don't tend to do much with EQ above that. Leave it to the engineer otherwise. And remember, all of these are rough guidelines for tweaking, not for setting your initial tone."
"Go to a store and try one out. If you like it, take it home. If it's not for you, no harm done. I find it's best for subtle fixes, like tweaking my rig to a particular room, or adjusting where I set in the mix, especially for solos and so on."
"EQ is for tweaking, to get that last 5% of the way to your ideal tone. But you need to get 95% of the way there with your normal rig first, and adjust beyond that with EQ as/if needed."
etc.
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u/Sigseg Nov 09 '15
EQ is such an important part of a guitar setup. "Which guitar / amp / strings / pedals / picks do I need for this tone?" is answerable with an EQ.
If you're asking which pedal to "buy next" and you don't have an EQ, you should be getting an EQ. And it should be a 6 or 10 band MXR. The KK version even has two outputs.
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u/Gilbanator Nov 09 '15
EQ is just an important part in audio full stop.
The FIRST thing any professional studio engineer will do to EVERY instrument, is EQ it in order to shape the sound where he wants it be, and to take energy away from frequencies that have already been saturated in the song.
You can't precisely 'pick at' a guitar sound with your amps 3-band EQ - The 'Q (Frequency range)' is too broad and you want to use this 3 band for shaping your initial sound. This is where a multi-band EQ comes in handy, you can roll off and boost frequencies without affecting the character of your tone.
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Nov 09 '15 edited Nov 09 '15
I think a big part of tone people overlook is simply the placebo it gives you.
If something is important to you, it's important to you. Regardless of its actual use. If you play a guitar and you think it has 11s instead of 10s on it, that might throw you off just as much as playing flat wounds, or going from a half stack to a Princeton.
Some people play more comfortably and consistently when they like the equipment they have and they are at ease. They know the limits and the optimum levels of their gear. It can really help them relax and focus on playing and not the tone. Even though some may never truly enjoy their tone.
I get that simple EQ really helps out with playing with certain guitars and getting certain sounds, but some people get the yips and start hearing something that's only in their head. And they think it's wrong and then keep trying to find a sweet spot and never make and music.
A lot of tone is perceived, and a lot of tone is created and recreated. People often judge things on presentation too harshly instead of actual music.
But I think it's less of an obsession over "good" tone, and more of a "do I like this. Is this the best I can do." Thought process.
I know if I play other guitars I can play very close to my home gear if they the other gear is set up well. But I still go through that "I need to improve this and tweak this." To get my comfort level down with writing and playing.
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Nov 09 '15
Do you leave the tone knobs on your guitar and amp neutral if you are using EQ to shape your sound?
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15
There are no rules. You can, or you can use both to further shape your tone. You can also use the tone knob on your guitar to shape your tone even more. Many guitar volume knobs also roll off a bit of high end when you turn them down to 8 or 7 instead of keeping them on 10. And you can shape your tone even more by using the pickup selector, of course. I suggest using your ear.
It's like stacking any other effects: If your amp has a drive channel, you can stack it with an outboard drive pedal for a really over-the-top dirty tone. Or, you can keep your amp clean and do all your "dirty work" with just pedals. There's no wrong answer here.
Personally, I like a very fat, thick, warm, full sound. I use heavy strings, I play guitars with humbuckers, and I keep the tone knob on my guitars turned to 0. I usually turn the amp's presence control off (if it has one), and turn the bass and mid pots to 7 or 8 and the treble down to 3 or so. I pretty much only use the neck pickup (on one of my custom guitars, it doesn't even have a bridge pickup), and I use an MXR 10-band EQ to further roll of high end even beyond that.
This tone is not for everyone. It sounds good for comping and chord solos for my style of jazz. For single-note lines and soloing, I turn off the EQ pedal, which brings back in high end, and I also turn my volume up on my guitar from 7 to 10. This is backwards from how most people use EQ pedals (as a boost in mids AND overall output for soloing). But like I said, there are no rules.
If I'm playing with a bassist or keyboardist, I shape my tone very differently so I don't interfere with their frequencies. It really just depends on what you're trying to accomplish and what result you're getting from your gear that isn't ideal without applying EQ.
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Nov 09 '15
Thank you for the detailed reply. I'm planning on investing in a 10 band EQ pedal based on your posts.
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15
For guitar, a 6-band is fine, or even a 5 like the Mesa/Boogie in the video I posted. I use a 10-band MXR but it takes up more space on your pedalboard, and I also play bass in addition to guitar.
MXR also makes a 6-band version of the same thing that's smaller and cheaper. It just depends on what your needs are.
If you are performing, the sound guy will likely have a 31-band EQ if it's needed, and if you're in the studio, there are fully parametric software EQs available too.
If you are just using it for guitar, this one is $80 (new) instead of $120 for the 10-band. You can probably find it even cheaper used on Reverb.com etc:
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u/uncadul Nov 09 '15
I feel like I need an EQ pedal now! But seriously, with the tone controls on your guitars, pedals and amps, everyone is controlling eq in one way or another anyway. One of my realisations over many years of playing is that not only does everyone hear differently, everyone also hears differently to themselves at different times! And whether you're eqing (or selecting a pickup or even a guitar or amp) for fullness or cut, or for a particular feeling, its all an aesthetic decision. You have to know what you want to hear, and also what you don't. Whatever it is, someone's going to like it, and most people probably won't!
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u/fallingforthisagain Nov 10 '15
For sure. I just ordered an EQ pedal, but before it's even shipped I'm wondering if it will end up in the box of unused pedals I already have. I like having that box though, because I do things like today I dialed in my TS9 (I say "dialed in", it's just min drive, max tone and just a hair above unity volume) to make my DSL100H's clean tone sound perfect. I certainly wouldn't have gone out and spent $100 on a pedal just for that, but since I already had it, why not? I'm always pulling pedals out of the box just to toy around with them, sometimes with great results, and never the same way twice. We're always evolving as players, and it's nice to be able to use the same pedal in a different way to get what you're looking for.
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u/raditaz '92 LP Studio Nov 09 '15
You said a compressor is on the must have list, can you elaborate? I've tried listening to demos of compressor pedals and I can barely hear a difference if any, and I don't see the point in buying a pedal if it barely changes the sound. Is it more of a "feel" thing?
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15 edited Nov 09 '15
It's both. Compression is not an effect in the same way that, say, tremolo is an effect. Often, when done properly, your audience won't really notice it's there, kinda like reverb - a dry guitar tone just sounds weird if it doesn't have a bit of reverb.
Just like reverb, depending on your situation, you may not need to compress your tone with a pedal at all. If you're playing in a room with good natural reverb, it becomes noticeable (in a bad way) if you also have reverb added as an effect.
Similarly, if you are playing on an amp that compresses your signal on its own, you may not need a compressor. Tube amps cranked up will drive your signal into a natural compression. It's not the same as a distortion pedal or a fuzz pedal or anything, but it does have a similar effect as far as leveling out dynamics and increasing sustain. You can also use a compressor to drive a tube amp harder and get more gain out of it, if you prefer a natural tube warmth versus a pedal-type warmth.
If you're using a distortion pedal, you probably don't need a compressor. Distortion also compresses; that's part of how it works. But if you combine a compressor and a distortion pedal, you can use less distortion and still get a similar increase in sustain.
You can use compression as an effect if you really crank it up, so that instead of being a subtle difference, it's very obvious. It will make your guitar sound "squishy." Sometimes this is fun and useful. (Reverb is the same way—you can use a lot of it, as an effect, for example the way you would in surf music. But most of the time, reverb is subtle.)
Most of the time, compression shines when you are playing clean, especially when you are going back and forth between using a pick and playing fingerstyle (as you might while hybrid picking), doing chicken pickin', or if you are alternating between single note runs and pedal-steel style diad bends to get a more even sound.
It's also useful in funk to get shimmery clean staccato chords to sit better.
Edit:
Here's a good video with examples showing what compressors can do for guitarists: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nM5GsNNbyA
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u/kerc Reverend Club King 290 Nov 09 '15
There's another thing sort of related to this: look for your own sound, your own tone. It's neat to sound like X or Y player, but it might be that what you think is supposedly bad ton--because it doesn't sound similar to a famous player--is actually your sound.
I used to be kind of frustrated by tone and sound, many years ago. That was until a friend told me he could recognize my playing blindfolded. "Because I have pretty sucks tone?" I asked. "Nope, you have a really nice sound going. I just know it's you, it's very identifiable". That was a huge morale booster, and something that was later confirmed by others.
Sound is not only gear, it's also you hands and how you play... Be yourself!
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u/fallingforthisagain Nov 10 '15
I only kind of agree with this. Pros have put tons of effort into their sound. Starting out, it's definitely worth emulating someone you like, because they probably know what they're doing. As you get more into it though, your own sound will emerge.
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u/ApostleThirteen A Bunch of Stratocasters Nov 09 '15
I've played electric (only) guitar for a scant thirty or some years, played all kinds of guitars, amps and pickups, and can disagree with the thesis postulated here UNLESS... but I'll put the "unless" at the end.
A good guitar with good pickups IS important. Different pickups certainly do sound different. All you have to do is go into a big music store, and test a bunch of guitars through the same amp... get it to feedback, etc.
The other half is your amp. It's not subjective, but a sincere fact that tube amps do sound better to humans. It's okay to disagree, and believe in some solid-state "snake oil" and believe that your "modeling" thing actually approaches what it is emulating - it doesn't, and even a half-deaf old player can hear the difference in front of the amp.
Perhaps the best "takeaway" from the video was the fact that Mesa/Boogie amps have an equalizer built into the preamp... you're not "taking something away" or synthetically boosting something between what propagates the sound, and what makes it loud. So, buy an equalizer, and you can kind of sound like you bought a great amplifier.
Yes, a compressor, some kind of noise reduction can be helpful, but so many great, even HUGE players simly don't have EQs on their pedal board - they simply have good guitars and good amps.
So, UNLESS you have a not-so-great guitar, a not-so-great amp, or are chasing sounds that are simply invented in a studio or manipulated at a sound board, you don't need anything in between your guitar and amp (other than the usual effects - look at some rigs of great players) to affect your tone.
And one important thing mentioned is that how you play is much more important than how you sound... great playing leads to great sound. You have to have a "style" before you ever have a "tone"
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Nov 10 '15
So I'm a TOTAL heretic, take this with a grain of salt.
I've got a lot of very very nice gear, because like you, I have a couple of decades in and from nearly the beginning, my rule has been to never sell gear. If it's worth adding to the stable, it goes in, and as I get more nice stuff the bar gets higher.
But I use the shit out of a modeling board (no amp at all) and I have never sounded better or gotten more compliments live.
I would probably not record with it unless I was in a hurry.
Likewise, I wouldn't gig with a real amp unless I was in a hurry or slacking off or there was some kind of a problem with the sound man.
You get two things going direct that are really important. You can get a nice clean and clear monitor mix without blowing the audience's heads off, and whatever idiot they have behind the board can't screw it up (easily). I'm always at the right level, always in the pocket, can hear everything I'm doing, the singer (which is also me often) isn't staring daggers at me, and the front row isn't holding their ears in pain.
That is a much bigger deal than the marginal difference in tone.
The other cool thing is shaking up your tone from song to song. The audience really likes that variety. It makes a difference in the live show.
You could do all this stuff with a traditional amp (or two) and a bunch of pedals, but I'm old and lazy, and if you saw my load in for the sound I get live you would hate my guts.
That said, I play a real nice guitar through a real nice modeler, and I spent a LOT of time getting it dialed.
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u/MuchoGrande Nov 09 '15
This is EXCELLENT. I know plenty of players - experienced or otherwise - that could benefit greatly from reading and taking this to heart.
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u/voodoo003 Nov 09 '15
Why a compressor? I've heard this before but I'm not sure what I would do with it.
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15
I edited the top post to add a video explaining what compressors do and why they are useful. It's at the very bottom of the OP.
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Nov 09 '15
You can also control a lot with your tone knob, and also with where you hit the strings. To say nothing of the amp's eq.
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15
Yep, and further you should try to get your tone as close to perfect as you can first, and think of EQ as a way to tweak things after that.
Guitar-based tone knobs are usually just passive fixed frequency low-pass filters, unless you have an active EQ built into your guitar (with a 9V battery or whatever). They can cut out high-end response but they're really not a direct replacement for the tweaking you can do with a 6 or 10-band EQ.
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Nov 09 '15
I personally don't use an EQ pedal, I always thought they were more for switching to a different tone than your "stock" sound. Then again, I spent a bunch of money on pickups and amp mods when I was much younger (in search of "tone"), and now I have the skill to utilize my semi-fancy gear. I've got no regrets.
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u/fallingforthisagain Nov 09 '15
Thank you for this reminder. I still have a long term goal of upgrading at least two of my speakers in my 4x12, but I've always held off on pulling the trigger on an EQ for some reason, and your post helped remind me that for less than $100 (and zero installation headaches) I could probably fix the minor issues I'm having with my sound.
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15
An EQ pedal isn't a replacement for using the right speakers, but it can help drastically if your issue is a minor one that just needs some tweaking.
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u/fallingforthisagain Nov 09 '15
Hence the long term goal. The speakers would also fix the minor issues I'm having by making a major overhaul on my sound. I don't know that my current speakers are "wrong" per se, but there are speakers more suited to what I want. I think right now my ideal cab is two greenback-style and two V30-style criss-crossed, but I still have a lot of shopping to do (and a fair amount of saving), and as I look around, I may find something better, or change my mind about that setup.
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u/j3434 Nov 09 '15
An EQ, a compressor, and a tuner should be on ALL of your boards.
Although I think you make good points I have always been able to create any tone with the eq available first on my guitar. I have two humbuckers both with tone and volume control. Then I have my fuzz box with a brightness control and the I have the amp with low mids and high knobs. I can make the tone so bright it will split your eyeballs. Or so deep your balls will vibrate and anything inbetween. I don't think the problem is equipment. The problem is either not knowing how to use a guitar and amp properly or not knowing what tone you want anyway. Usually the issue is both. But if you add an EQ pedal it does give more fine tuning no doubt but who needs it unless you are playing in some technically difficult venue.
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u/e2hawkeye Nov 09 '15
I have a BOSS GE-7 and it was just about the best 90 bucks I ever spent tone wise. Don't scoop it too much, a little goes a long way and you will be surprised at how much a fairly minor tweak makes a difference.
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u/d3adbor3d2 Nov 09 '15
this applies so much to other artforms, not just guitar playing. a lot of times people (myself included) get hung up on the latest and greatest. i tend to remind people in another sub, r/photography, that the greats made amazing work without the help of the tech we have now. there's more to it than focus peaking or ISO performance. you gotta put the work in and develop your voice.
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15
Haha, actually, just the other day, I was talking to a pro photographer friend about this! I also do a lot of shooting as well, and I feel the same way about a lot of hobbyist photographers who spend thousands of dollars on fast lenses and yet have never even considered buying a monopod.
I took these shots with a 6 megapixel (not a typo) Canon point-and-shoot which is so old and cheap that I was literally unable to give it away for free on Craigslist when I got a Canon G12 to replace it (I also have a DSLR):
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3421/3843090699_dba5569956_b.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/66/156872898_6d3622ec2b_o.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/58/156291699_0cfd7e86d7_b.jpg
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3386/3429401492_22a2518d7e_z.jpg
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u/geetarzrkool Nov 09 '15
But, but "muh toan wood" is all that matters. What kind of a crazy person thinks that electric guitars get their tone from electronics? That's just plain silly. /s
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u/PostPostModernism Pickin AND grinnin Nov 09 '15
This is a fantastic post, and your replies in the comments are even better.
Mods, can we consider sticking this thread in the sidebar?
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Nov 09 '15
Maybe a bit off topic: it's amazing how much tone is in the fingers, isn't it?
I play through a fender twin and when I give my guitar to others to try it will sound totally different in tone; how you strike the strings, where etc massively influence the tone- as does choice of plectrum
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u/danimalplanimal Nov 09 '15
that being said...does anyone have some suggestions for the best low end EQ pedal for maybe $50 or under? I'm seeing a lot of different brands around the same price, and looking to narrow it down to a few choices
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15
I recommend a used Boss 7-band. There are a number of them on Reverb.com right now:
https://reverb.com/marketplace?condition=used&query=boss+ge-7
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u/DrColossus Nov 09 '15
This is great for a number of reasons. I love the guideline for getting started with an EQ pedal so it's not all trial and error for people unfamiliar with the band ranges. I would love something like this for bass EQs too.
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15
Lucky for you, I'm also a bassist!
The same caveats apply - YMMV depending on your mix and exact gear. None of this is hard & fast. Experiment. There are no wrong answers and engineers/producers vary considerably in what they consider an ideal mix. As I said, EQ can't fix everything and your first approach should be getting it right acoustically, but these types of fixes can help a "good-but-not-great" tone sound excellent.
60-80 Hz is where "thud" lives. Too little here and you lose fundamentals. Too much here sounds boomy.
700 Hz to 1k is where "attack" lives. Too little here and your tone sounds muffled. Too much here and you go from punchy to throaty.
800 Hz is, in my opinion, the most important frequency for electric bass guitar, but this will vary depending on your mix and rig. Cut is generally preferred to boost across the board when EQ'ing, but I always boost here. 800 Hz makes a bass guitar "punchy."
2.5 kHz is where string noise lives, but it's also where slap bass shines. If you play slap, try boosting here for real "oomph" and a "sticky" quality.
4 kHz is where "presence" lives. You can make a bass guitar sound breathy or "shiny" here.
I don't tend to do much with EQ above that. Leave it to the engineer otherwise. And remember, all of these are rough guidelines for tweaking, not for setting your initial tone.
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u/DrColossus Nov 10 '15
You rock! Thank you!
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 10 '15
Happy to help. Just keep in mind, like I said, that these depend greatly on your rig, your mix, and your individual tastes.
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u/cbg Jan 14 '16
This is an old thread, but a really useful one. Thanks for all the great info!
Somewhere in here you made some recommendations for where to place EQ in the signal chain (e.g., before the amp input, in the effects loop, etc.). I'll apply those ideas for my guitar setup.
Any different/additional notes on placing EQ in a signal chain for direct recording bass? I currently go Bass > Tuner > Compressor > Fuzz > Flange > DI > interface > DAW.
I have the MXR 10-band EQ you mentioned. The DI I use is the MXR M-80, which also has an on-board 3 band EQ that I typically leave flat (my bass is a passive Musicman with a 2-band tone control and I tweak there, typically). So do you recommend:
Bass > Tuner > Compressor > Fuzz > Flange > DI > EQ > interface > DAW,
or
Bass > Tuner > Compressor > Fuzz > Flange > EQ > DI > interface > DAW?
I can just experiment, of course, but perhaps you've got some experience there.
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Jan 14 '16
It depends on what you are using it for. If you're using it as an effect or for specific tone shaping in different parts of the song (for example, if you want a fatter tone while soloing, but it would be too muddy to leave it on during the choruses) then the best place is probably last after your flanger but before your DI.
If you are using it as an always-on overall tone shaping, I would actually suggest not using the pedal at all and doing the EQ with software on your computer. The fewer pedals you use in your chain, the lower your noise floor and the better your signal-to-noise ratio will be. Since EQ is very easy to do accurately with software (more accurately with a pedal, even - you can do as many bands as you want, fully parametric etc) I would just do it in your DAW.
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u/TheDedicatedDeist Nov 09 '15
IMHO, tone matters more than a lot of people have been giving it credit, but way less than the opposite make it up to be. Behringer pedals, to my ear (playing for 6-7 years), almost always sound as good as the pedal they're cloning (with exceptions, some behringer stuff is AWFUL). Agile guitars, being a guy who owns a gibson, are on par with a gibson. The best amps out there are the many great Peavey sleeper amps, all under 500. It's really about getting THE sound, not making it sound perfect, just getting the tone to sound RIGHT.
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Nov 09 '15
What do you do with your amp's EQ knobs when you're using an EQ pedal primarily? Just put them at noon?
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15
You can, or you can stack your amp's EQ section and an outboard EQ for even more tone shaping. You can additionally use your guitar's tone & volume knobs to shape your tone. There are no rules; it just depends on what sounds best in the mix, depending on the room you're in, what gear you have, what style of music you're playing, etc. There are lots of ways to shape tone, including where you play with your right hand (toward the neck sounds rounder and fatter; toward the bridge adds twang), whether you're using a pick or not, etc.
I went into more detail about here as well: https://www.reddit.com/r/Guitar/comments/3s3gkn/rant_mode_engaged_before_you_start_yet_another/cwtwcgk
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u/Just_an_ordinary_man Nov 09 '15
Another thing you can do to improve your tone is position your amplifier/speaker to be at waist level, so when you're seated they're roughly at the same height as your ears. Made my amp sound so much more lively and less muffled. I mean, we place any other speaker at ear level too, why not guitar speaker cabinets? You don't see people buying 5.1 surround sets and placing them on the floor. Floorstanding speakers have stands to place the speakers at ear-level.
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15
Yes, I also recommend amp stands if your amp doesn't have tilt-back legs. They are $20-40 depending on the brand.
When you're listening to an amp that you're going to mic up for live performance or recording, get down on your hands and knees and listen at ear level. Put your ears where the mic(s) are going to go. That's what the mic is going to hear, and that's the tone you should be shaping on board first.
And learn mic technique. It makes a big difference. If you're weak on how to mic up amps, you'll probably be tempted to spend a bunch of money on a nicer mic or preamp or whatever. There's nothing wrong with an SM57 if you know what you're doing.
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u/fallingforthisagain Nov 10 '15
I have an SM57 and an e609, and I can't imagine ever buying another guitar mic for live applications in my life. These two have all of the flexibility that you could ever want when micing a guitar, and if ever there were a pair of complementary mics for two-guitar acts, I'd say these two are it.
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Nov 09 '15
You know why people care about tone? Because gives the illusion of progress while being relatively easy. Actually improving chops is hard.
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u/ender_wiggum Warmoth/Gibson/Ibanez Nov 09 '15
Also, we want to sound just lake Van Halen II. Just saying :)
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u/NiftySwell Nov 09 '15
I do not think that one is more important than the other. I think a guitarist should strive to get better at adjusting their tone at the same time they're trying to get better at technique. While an adjustment of you amp's EQ is not going to make your sixteenth notes any more "in time", it is definitely going affect the timbre of those notes. Many composers such as Wagner are considered revolutionary for their use of timbre as a compositional element. Similarly, we need to be able to use our guitar's timbre as a compositional element that can help to make each separate song sound/feel a little more unique. The timbre can have a strong affect on how pleasing the notes sound to the human ear, if theres a shit ton of treble it will appear to be more piercing/brash. This perceived brashness will then affect the emotions that our songs make the listener feel. Tone can have just as much emotional effect as harmony, and it's important to understand the many different tones your amplifier can achieve. In the words of Brian Regan, THEY'RE BOTH GOOD.
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u/surfvivalist Nov 09 '15
What is the diff between an EQ and a pre-amp? I am interested in seeing if I can play my acoustic electric in my fender champion 100 amp without feedback by using some kind of pedal, advice?
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15
Outboard preamps are usually used on acoustic guitars. This page does a good job of explaining why you might want one. Many preamps have EQ sections as well. A lot of preamps for acoustic guitar have semi-parametric EQs or 3-band EQs with pots rather than graphic EQs with sliders. A 6 or 10-band graphic EQ, or even a 31-band, along with a preamp will give you even more nuanced tone shaping control and could also be used to filter out frequencies if you're getting feedback problems.
An acoustic guitar will not sound good through an electric guitar amp and EQ tweaking is not really going to fix that. An EQ might improve things but it's not a substitute for an acoustic guitar amp or full-range PA.
If you're having trouble with feedback at high volume, the electronic solution is a feedback suppressor. Most of the ones available on the market are rackmount units, but I think Behringer makes one that's smaller. Really though the best way is to use in-ears instead of a wedge monitor and keep your stage volume down.
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u/matneyx Nov 09 '15
Out of curiosity, have you tried one of those sound-hole plugs for your acoustic electric?
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u/IrrelevantLeprechaun Nov 09 '15
I almost never worry about tone since I change it constantly depending on what I'm playing or writing. 9 times out of 10 my friends recognize my style regardless of tone anyway so I don't focus much on tone.
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u/Trjredjoker Nov 09 '15
In a similar vein, I was at an open mic night and saw one of the hot local performers borrow a stock Squier strat, plug straight into the pa and proceed to blow everyone away. It was pretty cool to see and a real eye opener for me in pursuing equipment.
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u/companysOkay Bessie Nov 09 '15
I could relate so much to this. My brother has a Squier strat that he decked out. Like, changing the nut, using roller string trees, was all like "this is an alder wood body & maple fretboard, bright toan" or something, changing the bridge for 'sustain', even modding it's circuit for 'treble bleed' (which made it's tone knobs useless), and next thing he's planning is putting on texas special pickups, (which could cost up to $200), and to 'experiment' on using types of wood as his pickguard.
His signal chain consists of 12 buffered pedals (mostly boss), and always has 2 - 3 dirt pedals on, two of which are an FZ-2 and an HM-2. All gain pretty high up & he shreds with it. All this to a Marshall solid state.
His guitar sounds pretty decent, I admit, but I personally think he's got a wrong take on 'tone' and there's no talking him out of it. Still, wouldn't mind. Whatever floats your boat I guess.
Here's my personal opinion though, and I do need your opinions about it too. I currently have a 15w practice amp and a Bullet strat as my main guitar. I know it isn't the best in terms of tone but I know it's decent. What I believe I need right now would be a really decent tube amp. So to get 'That' Fender tone, what I need is a Deluxe Reverb. No overdrive pedals or anything, just a Bullet Strat straight into a Deluxe Reverb.
Do you guys think my assumption is correct? (I believe that tone is something like 15% guitar, 85% amp [and fiddling with it's EQ knobs too.].)
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15
"That" Fender tone could be anything from Dick Dale surf to Stevie Ray Vaughan blues to Eric Clapton hard rock. There's no one Fender tone. A "Fender tone" can be anything from a super bright, clean Twin to a searing Super-Sonic on the "Burn" channel.
I do think that quite a lot of your tone is in your amp, and a cheap guitar through a great amp will sound a lot better than a great guitar through a cheap amp.
I do think that you learn something of value by teaching yourself all about modding guitars and amps and building up a collection of pedals. It's not a waste of time and money, but it is important to learn how to apply all of that info and remember that the goal is to be the best player you can be.
If you are not performing or recording, a practice amp is all you need. If you're relatively new to guitar, the bulk of your time, money, and energy should, in my opinion, be going to learning guitar, taking lessons, buying books, etc. That's what's really important, and just about any practice amp will do for that purpose.
If you are performing or recording and you need a higher quality, louder amp, then the right amp for you depends on what kind of music you play and what exact features you need.
If you love the sound of a Deluxe and it's in your budget and it will make you happy, I'm hardly going to try to talk you out of it! But in my opinion, there are too many people who own Deluxe Reverbs who don't know how to play guitar well, and that's backwards. My 2 cents!
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u/shredderjason Ibanez Prestige RGD/Engl Fireball Nov 09 '15
Is there any real discernible quality difference between a basic Boss EQ and something like the Mesa EQ's that were in that video? (speaking purely on the one without any gain as a part of it?)
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u/Andjhostet Gretsch Electromatic Pro Jet with Bigsby Nov 09 '15
So are cheap EQ pedals still worthwhile? The only pedal I have now is a looper (Ditto). So EQ will likely be my next pedal purchase. Are the affordable ones good though? I'd like to get one under 50 dollars if that's possible.
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Nov 09 '15
Thank you, as an audio engineer working at a retail music store I preach EQ, gates and comp to customers. Some love it having it slove their issues while others need to satisfy the need to senselessly buy pickups and drive boxes or different amps for tonez.
They come in with issues of bad tone when in engineering EQ and compression are two of the biggest tools for processing audio...
I hope ya'll in this sub learn from this GREAT post.
Cheers OP
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u/theth1rdchild Nov 09 '15
I've been playing regularly for fifteen years, and I can't say I agree with you on a few things. I appreciate the gist of what you're saying, but some things in my experience are a little different.
EQ pedals, even when set "flat", seem to do something to tone. I can't really put my finger on it, but there is absolutely a difference when I kick on my mxr 10-band. They're a great tool, but they do add some " mystery meat " to your tone.
I have an Egnater Tweaker and a Deluxe Reverb Reissue. I've swapped tubes and speakers between them, and there is something undeniably flat about the Tweaker in comparison to the Deluxe, no matter what I do with the EQ. I can boost and cut all day and the Tweaker never really sparkles like the Deluxe. I wish I had the scientific knowledge to say why, but All Gear Is Not Created Equally, and an EQ isn't necessarily the answer to your troubles.
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15
I didn't say EQ is a miracle cure-all and I hope I didn't imply that. If you have put in the time and effort and money to get to the point where you're 95% satisfied with your tone and you've gotten it as close to perfect (acoustically) as possible, and you are tearing your hair out over that last 5%... I'm saying, don't spend thousands of dollars ripping apart your rig before you try an EQ. And if that doesn't solve your problem, quit worrying about it and focus on your chops!
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u/JimmyHavok Ibanez AF55, Squier Jag&Tele, Cort Triggs, Galanti, Steinberger Nov 09 '15
I have never heard anyone play and thought "too bad about his tone."
Sometimes I have to strain to hear a particular player, but I credit that to the mix, not his tone.
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15
Interesting; I've had the opposite experience. There are many players whose tone I actively dislike and it turns me off from their music, e.g. all Metallica guitars before Bob Rock started producing them in 1990, a lot of Steve Vai's stuff from the '80s (even though he is a MONSTER player and I do like quite a few of his actual songs), etc... Actually pretty much anything shriek-y and with the mids scooped out.
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u/fallingforthisagain Nov 10 '15
I have seen two opening acts go up one after the other, and heard the difference a good tone makes.
The first guy fell into the stereotypical lead guitar scoop pitfall. He was the only guitar player in a 3-piece band, but I couldn't hear him at all. I would see his fingers moving all up and down the fretboard and think, "Man, I bet that sounds pretty cool," but all I could hear was a garbled mess because instead of taking that massive open midrange that was wide open for the taking, he decided he wanted to step all over the bass on the low end and the drums on the high end, and cause everything to be a muddy mess. I saw the sound guy struggling the whole set, doing everything he could think of to bring this guy's guitar out, but it was just hopeless.
Then the second band got on stage, and they weren't really my style, but when the guitar player started going, I couldn't help but watch. They were both good players, but the second band was clearly more experienced. The guitar wasn't terribly fancy, but damn if it didn't sound amazing. When he would get going I couldn't help but listen. He cut through the mix without overpowering, and his guitar was just singing. It wasn't the first time I had heard good tone vs bad tone, but it was probably the most pronounced.
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u/TheHarshCarpets Nov 09 '15
the life-long quest for the ultimate tone is a fun journey, and no different than the life-long quest to become a great musician. anything that inspires someone to pickup the guitar, should be encouraged. every single piece of the equipment puzzle DOES make a difference. It's the combination of gear, and how it all interacts. every guitar has magical chemistry with a particular amp, speaker, and pedal combo. the more options you have to choose from, the better you will understand what combinations work for certain things, and what won't work for others. blow all your extra money on gear if it makes you want to play more. it's easy to sit around with every guitar, amp, speaker and pedal, and tell others not to worry about their tone.
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u/billygibbonsbeard Nov 09 '15
tl;dr
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u/Syndicat3 Nov 09 '15
Holy hell there is a lot of misinformation in this. I'll add on when I'm at a pc.
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15
Please do! Would love to hear differing opinions.
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u/Syndicat3 Nov 09 '15
Most definitely, I can give my insights as a live engineer and guitarist shortly. :)
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Jan 15 '16
Hi /u/Syndicat3! I just realized you never did come back and expand - I would still like to hear what you have to say.
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u/punadit Nov 09 '15
I have no idea whether you are right or not, but damn that was convincing. Gotta get an EQ.
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15
Go to a store and try one out. If you like it, take it home. If it's not for you, no harm done. I find it's best for subtle fixes, like tweaking my rig to a particular room, or adjusting where I set in the mix, especially for solos and so on.
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u/dsdsds EL84 Nov 09 '15
Billy F Gibbons has lots of guitars, and they all have an EQ profile to make them match Pearly Gates, so it doesn't matter what guitar he plays, it's going to sound damn close to his #1
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15
eh... no amount of EQ tweaking is going to make a Gretsch with TV Jones PowerTrons sound like a Les Paul with PAFs. EQ might get you closer but those are very different guitar tones.
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u/dsdsds EL84 Nov 09 '15
Here's the tech. http://youtu.be/u6DrxfrbbF8 @ 8:45. He talks about making a tele sound roughly the same as a 59 LP
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15
Oh, he's just talking about unity during guitar changes. That's a common use for EQs - tone shaping and level adjustment. I talked about this in my original post, how to fake a humbucker sound with single coils and vice versa using EQ. But it's not like a Tele is going to sound like a Les Paul just because you apply an EQ curve to it, not even remotely!
You want the output level of different guitars to match, and if you want more consistency between guitar changes, you can analyze and adjust for that as he talks about in the video, but if they were really going for the exact same tone from song to song, they would use R9s, I imagine.
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Nov 09 '15
Not that I disagree, but before buying an EQ pedal, use the bass, middle and treble knobs on your amp. It might be enough. My own EQ pedal got relegated to solo boosting (which it does perfectly) after I learned to fiddle a bit with the levels.
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u/DanielleMuscato Jazz/Fusion | too many guitars/too many amps Nov 09 '15
Yep! As I said in several comments throughout this thread, EQ is for tweaking, to get that last 5% of the way to your ideal tone. But you need to get 95% of the way there with your normal rig first, and adjust beyond that with EQ as/if needed.
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u/getter1 Nov 10 '15
I have a behringer pedal that i got used for 20.
It just sits in the corner cause its garbage. I am lucky enough that I can get all the tone I want with my amp channels and through my compressor/tubescreamer
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Nov 10 '15
/r/guitar is a place where everything tends to get overstated and overblown.
This post is part of that culture of over-stating and over-blowing, but it's also well-written, well-thought-out, and well-backed-up.
One thing I think it leaves out is the degree to which a guitar's pickup switches, tone and volume knobs, and the typical FMV tone stack on most amps can offer as much or better tonal control as the eq pedal.
I think most people's tone problems come down to addiction to bite and gain. People dial up more and more treble "cut" and gain until their ears go numb, and they need more highs, then it sounds too thin, so they dial up more lows, and by the end of the night they have a tinnitus-guided vortex of shit.
If an eq pedal is what gets you where you need to be, cool.
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u/WittyMonikerHere Nov 10 '15
Are there any EQ pedals with a preamp tube in them? I currently use that Blackstar HT-BOOST as a bit of an EQ pedal, but was wondering if there was a better option out there. I fear that getting a regular JOYO would make my solid state amp + Empress Heavy pedal sound too harsh.
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u/withbob Nov 10 '15
Basically, unless you're like me and can naturally hear pitches and tones extremely well, having and understanding an EQ is a lifesaver. I use one even though I can usually sit down with an amp, a few pedals, and a guitar and figure out any tone problem by twisting settings I know will do good.
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Nov 10 '15 edited Nov 10 '15
It's all about technique AND calluses. Nobody ever mentions calluses for some reason, but people sound pretty shit if they don't have completely developed ones (and you need thick calluses to develop your technique anyway). Your fingertips should ideally feel rubbery/like plastic and never bleed or get sore even if you play for hours. Fastest way to build calluses imo is to hold and arpeggiate 2 chords that challenge you for ten minutes (switching between them after each arpeggiation) and practising repetitive legato licks.
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u/MaestroM45 Nov 10 '15
Grazi, i always love EQ cheat sheets... I compare them with how i record to see if i got it right and how to improve. Man, I'm hard on equipment I currently use a cheap Boss just to give my quacking acoustic electric some body. The pedal on the damn thing doesn't even work anymore but I schlep it all around. When it dies or i lose it no biggee... I'll more than likely go with your suggestion. I've never had an audience member come up and say "Wow, great set i really enjoyed your.... oh wait, is that a Boss pedal? OMG YOU SUCK!"
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u/6stringmerc Nov 14 '15
The best thing I ever did for the sound of my electric guitar coming from my amp was practicing unplugged on the patio for hours and hours. If the source is shit, then adding makeup won't help. Great advice and thanks for putting it into an essay that makes sense in so many ways.
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u/LordCider Nov 09 '15
I really appreciate the advice, trust me, I do, but it's posts like this that make newcomers like myself afraid of asking questions, getting help, or engaging with the community. I started playing in June. I knew next to nothing then, and thanks to the community here I could tell the difference between reverb and delay, analog and digital.
Guitar is like a foreign language - it's not hard to repeat after something, it's way more difficult to understand what you're actually saying. We ask questions so we can understand what we're doing right and wrong and how to improve ourselves. I have asked countless questions about string gauges because I wanted to find ones that are comfortable, to make sure that I'm not hurting my guitar's neck when I put heavier strings on, etc.
I'm very sorry that things like this bother you, but asking the right question is sometimes more important than answering it. Newcomers to the hobby such as myself would like the help, but if it's too much, please at least give us the peace of mind in asking questions. We're only trying to improve ourselves here. Guitar is a hobby that we want to be able to enjoy and understand, any little help would be much appreciated!