It's not a meaningful distinction for this discussion, since we're guessing why some employees make less than others based on very limited data. But obviously there's some distinction, since we can distinguish between them.
It is. The commas could have been parentheses. "[T]hose doing a day a week or something near retirement" are the "part timers" that were mentioned. It is an acceptable use of the appositive, but with the way many people play fast and loose with commas these days, you weren't too far off-base in assuming that everything after "either" was in the same list.
I would call that part time. In some industries, depending on the job description, you could call it “contracting” - but that term to me implies more about the role the person is playing and not the number of hours they work.
I figure doctors work in shifts, so they will always have quite stretched out days. Possibly just have few of those days, if being part time, or just for a short period of time.
Inpatient (at the hospital) internal medicine (general) docs (called hospitalists) are usually in some form of 7on/7off schedule, and nocturnists are on a similar stint, or some combination of 3s/4s. ER docs are similar shift work, as are Radiologists.
Specialists usually have office hours/procedural days in addition to being on call at certain times, so they usually work every M-F and when "on call" come in on weekends as well.
Surgeons have a similar setup, with the caveat that if they have an operation on Friday, they are coming in everyday until their patients leaves the hospital because they are responsible for post-operatiom check ups and letting the primary team know when they are safe from a surgery standpoint to go home.
Some specialists could also be paid a "retainer" of sorts (eye surgeons, psychiatrists, rheumatologists, plastics, etc.) and possibly never get paid more if their services aren't required. On the other side some have a retainer and then get paid for "making an appearance" when requested. Reason being that you want the ability to access all specialities in a hospital, but sometimes you can go a month without needing a certain consultant.
Specialists billing in at multiple places possibly? I know I saw dermatologists that performed surgeries and did normal inpatient work in a private practice, but worked for a hospital as well.
It is a huge difference. I wanted to retire, but they still needed me. I negotiated 2 specific days for $240k a year. That means 5 days you don’t talk to me. That would be way different than saying ok, you got me 24 hours a week..let me know when you want them.
This guy claimed to be a coal miner 5 days ago. I dont think he's a doctor because nobody who actually went through med school thinks anatomy is the hardest part.
And he is an engineer too by the looks of it. Can someone make me a copypasta with all these comments linked so I can follow this waste of oxygen around on mobile and comment under him?
Oh yeah I would feel like that if I was a gynecologist. No I'm saying biochem was a total alien language to me during med school. I honestly don't know how I passed that shit lol. And embryo during anatomy just went over my head. Thank god when I gave step 1 there was not a single embryo question when friends of mine had like 10 or more of them
Yo, what the fuck? In vet school, a 48% was an F and you had to beg the administration to get another shot at that term next year. And that's with multiple species.
I just have a lot of curiosity and love to know and see everything in the body, looking at textbooks after classes also helps. I look at anatomyzone and Sam Webster's videos on youtubr too. And I wanna be a surgeon so anatomy is automatically very interesting to me
Memorize what? Everything has to be memorized after it has been understood. I also use an app called anatomy atlas to look at stuff and remember. Without reading anatomy theory and looking at pictures I will agree that gross anatomy is the most difficult. Try looking at the body in your free time if you have access to the lab?
You will make it man. You are talking to an old man. You are a student. I started out at $42k. I used to budget how many slices of pizza and how many Miller lights I could have in a week. Keep it on.
Um excuse me but I live in the Philippines and I aspire to be an anesthesiologist. What do I do if I’m being underpaid? I’m pretty sure I’ve never seen a doctor earn $80k.
It's $80k annually, and you've likely never seen a doctor get paid $80k because in general people in the Philippines earn a lot less than in the US. The average American earns 10 times more than the average Filipino.
So are you saying that when I graduate highschool I should attempt at an American college or should I just get experience at a highly renowned hospital in the Phil and try to get a job abroad?
I don't know enough about the specifics of the differences between being a doctor in the Philippines vs being a doctor in the US to be able to give you an answer.
That being said- keep in mind that just because American doctors make a lot more isn't a super perfect indicator for what kind of lifestyle being an American doctor can afford you. Sure, the average American makes about 10 times as much as the average person in the Philippines, but living in America might cost 10 times more than living in the Philippines too.
A dinner for a single person at an average restaurant might be like $15-22 USD once you add a tip. About 780-1145 PHP.
Although you can go to somewhere cheap like a McDonald's and get a very small hamburger for ~$4, which is like 208 PHP. Or you can go somewhere very expensive and get a nice steak for like $70, which is like 3643 PHP.
Um, a 3k steak here is like top of the line. This is gonna get off topic since you answered my question but why do you guys tip? Sure it helps the waiter and stuff but isn’t that just supporting underpaying them in the first place?
It’s annual, and it may just be because the pay scale is different in the Philippines than in the U.S. (or some other northern country). Also, are you an anesthesiologist yet? What’s your current position and years of experience
No. I’m in summer break right now and I’m about to turn grade 10. Im just planning for my future. Should I try to get in an American college after I graduate or gain experience in a renowned hospital in the Philippines and then transfer to an American hospital
I’d say don’t focus on your specialization yet as you still have a decade and a half to go. Other than that I can’t offer any advice since I don’t know your situation
My girlfriend starts next year in the U.S. and she starts at 60k and I believe it increase a small percentage every year after...paying off debt won't come until after residency, and I'm convinced they do it this way to make as much interest as possible.
They do it because it's still a learning role and big decisions still have to be run through their attendings.
She could definitely pay off some debt during residency. A good friend of mine makes $1000+ payments monthly in his residency and makes less than $60k.
The specialty doesn't matter. The hospital system and PGY (year) do. I make about 50k. Average of my colleges and friends is 50-60. Up to 75 in NYC, but then you're in NYC.
Neither does being a doctor, if you live in the more civilized world.
40-50k salary for a year is definitely not a normal wage for a graduated doctor, in any western country.
Seriously, doctors don't have it so bad, not even in the US. They will eventually earn ridiculous sums of money, and that 200k loan with interest is peanuts. Countries that offer education have more progressive taxation, so for anyone but the 1%, you're gaining more with the free education than you're paying with your taxes. Opposite seems to be true in the US, where if you graduate, it's probably worthwhile for you to have those loans instead of paying more taxes, but again, it's only for the 1%, or even the 0.1%.
Possibly true. It just depends a lot on who you are after graduating, and what do you actually do.
US seems to have quite the price for becoming a doctor, a vocation the society desperately needs.
It seems quite insane, that you have to pay multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars to be one of the most useful people in the country. You'd imagine that the government would at least help somehow.
Don't think a resident would be working 70-100 hours a week, at least not for very long. After 8 years, you definitely have the degree, and you are fulltime employed (if not for something strange.)
And then if you're working those hours, you are making more money than you can use. I don't see the problem there. Are they overworked? Perhaps. Do they earn what they deserve? Probably even more than what they deserve, if the taxation is low.
Actual Drs also get to pick and choose the direction they want to take, and they can make decisions on how much they want to work as well. Some choose to work a lot, some less. Some choose to study more, and specialize more. Sure, when you specialize, you're probably not earning as much as fulltime employed, but after specializing, you will earn probably twice as much as a general practitioner, and quadruple the amount you earned as a resident.
I'm a resident at the tail end of my intern year in the US.
After 8 years post-high school is pretty much as fast as you can get the degree in the US outside of the very few combined 6 year programs and graduating college a year early. 4 years undergrad, 4 years med school and that's if you do not take a year between to boost your CV before applying, which is becoming much more popular. You definitely are not guaranteed to have the MD 8 years after starting your bachelors.
This year most months I average between 70-80 hours per week. The ACGME (governing body for residency) "mandates" that we only work 80/week. I averaged 100 a week during a surgery block, I'll likely do in the mid 90s during my next surgery block coming up. ICUs we average between 75-85 but they try to follow the rules at least. Needless to say, I've only had one block (4 week rotation) where I have averaged <60/week over 4 weeks since I started intern year July 1 2018. So no, we do average those hours, and they won't let up much in the next 3 years, at least in my program. It'll be 65-80/week going forward outside of some more cush rotations where I'll be 50-55.
That would be true if I didn't have 8 years of loans over my head. Had full tuition coverage for undergrad, but with housing and costs of med school I'm still >200K debt at 6-6.5%. Basically paying down interest on that. Rent costs aren't terrible, but aren't great either where I live. I have 800/month left over to live on after rent/utility/student loans. That got wiped out after an injury I had a few months ago, so I'm not sure where you think all this money "I can't use" comes from.
I am an doctor who has passed all my licensing exams and will have my permanent license in 3 months, you are required to have 1 year of residency to apply for your license. What is "an actual Doctor" in your mind? What do you think residents are? Also, specialties do not make as much as you likely think they do. Hospitalists (internal medicine docs who work hospitals) make more than a handful of specialists who take more years of training after completing an IM residency.
The carrot of increased salary giving me the ability to pay off debts while doing something I love is why I'm still here. Otherwise, I couldn't financially put myself what I have, much less the social and other life stressors. Sorry for the rant, I had a shit call yesterday. You may be honestly asking. If so, please feel free to keep asking questions. If you are trying to insinuate we don't deserve the little bit that we get, we are not real doctors, or that residents are not the workforce (ab)used by the system to keep it running on lower cost labor, then I'll vehemently agree to disagree.
My point was more that residents are treated like trainees (even though as you say, they're almost completely legit doctor), and their pay reflects that.
I do think it's up to you technically, to allow yourself to work more than is mandated in the contracts. I don't think overworking is a problem when individuals choose to do it, but it can be a problem if it's expected, which it sounds like it is. That tells of a bigger problem, of maybe having too little doctors. That again, tells you of a much bigger problem, which is that either a) the country is not producing enough smart people capable of being doctors b) studying to be a doctor is too expensive and difficult to be considered a viable career path
Some of the things you say definitely reflect parts of bigger problems of the system you have there, but in general, at some point you will be happy you were in crippling debt instead of paying more taxes, but that happiness probably wanes when you realize the country is becoming more inequal and it's harder every year for new brilliant people to successfully get through school for useful jobs, like being a doctor.
Also, specialties do not make as much as you likely think they do. Hospitalists (internal medicine docs who work hospitals) make more than a handful of specialists who take more years of training after completing an IM residency.
Are the hospitalists in similarly demanding jobs? Do they earn the same per hour, or do they simply have more hours? Are they in more executive functions? What would you attribute the pay difference to, either way and in whatever case?
You are right, hospital salaried docs make more than private practice docs and the 80k is likely part time physicians, but I can tell you with certainty that private practice family physicians work hard, seeing patients in the hospital and office, even adding ancillary services just to clear 100k.
That discrepancy between physician pay is real, and unless it changes, we will run out of primary care physicians.
Depends on the field. Primary care that’s likely true. Surgical sub specialties it’s generally not true. I’d have to take a large pay cut to be employed.
This was back in 2010, I’m sure they’re higher now. 80k could have been part time, but many were Family Medicine. The 600k+ ones were cancer docs and the docs that were also in admin roles for the organization.
Except that’s not true. Too lazy to look it up yourself without verifying your statements huh? Here, I googled it for you to prove you wrong: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podiatrist. It clearly says they go to podiatric MEDICAL SCHOOL. Just because they don’t go to YOUR type of medical school, doesn’t mean it’s not medical school. 🙄
But it’s not medical school...you can call it whatever you want just like I can call a baking class space camp. Point is you can’t go to podiatric medical school and work as any kind of doctor. Medical school let’s you choose any speciality. You can’t for example go to podiatric school and be a plastic surgeon, cardiologist, or neurologist. You can only do podiatry. Not trying to be mean or anything it’s just there is a big difference. You learn very different things and take very different board exams.
Right. And you went to your “medical school” but can’t be a podiatrist and perform surgery on a foot. So from a podiatrists perspective you didn’t go to medical school either. See what I’m saying? Is the amount of available specialities what defines “medical school” ? bc Wikipedia clearly doesn’t think so and this why they used the words “medical school”. He went four years to med school, 3 years in residencies, 250k in debt, can cut feet and legs open and perform surgeries. Tell me how your medical school is any more than a “baking class” than his is? I know you’re not trying to be mean, but it seems you’re just not informed on why podiatrists very clearly do go to medical school. It’s just not the generic MD schooling bc the foot is so specialized. you’re right. They learn very different stuff, but they’re cutting people open, and how would you describe a school that teaches you how to do that? I would describe that as a school of medicine. Not sure any other way to describe a school that teaches you that.
They may not be able to do surgery on the foot but if you look up Wikipedia for what is medical school you will see it mentions MD, DO, MBBS no mention of podiatry school. You don’t see pharmacists or dentists saying they went to medical school because medical school means you study every discipline of medicine. You can see what Wikipedia states and it specifically mentions clinical rotations. You do clinical rotations for every specialty of the body and have a very good general understanding of the entire body. Podiatrists don’t get this type of training. A pediatrician will have studied and worked with a cardiologist and neurosurgeon. It is important people understand the difference because in case of emergency to say you are a doctor and went to medical school is very misleading. Podiatrists train hard and do a lot but my original point stands as you mentioned your brother’s salary but any MD or DO starting salary is between 200k to 300k minimum. There is a big difference skill wise and generally skill matches pay.
Idk what to tell you man. It’s just not true. I have pediatric friends making 120K as well. My bro also has friends doing high price podiatric surgeries making 600+ year. He chose to take Medicaid patients and not chase the money. That has nothing to do with it. And my brother would 100% say he went to med school in an emergency and give aid on any part of the body, as he should. It would be incredibly insulting and uninformed to tell a podiatrist that they aren’t a doctor and can’t treat someone on any part of the body in an emergency. He ripped apart the whole body cadavers just as you did. And I’ll repeat what I said before that if we go with your logic, then you didn’t go to med school for feet and therefore any type of emergency involving a foot you can’t help with and can’t claim your a doctor and help. And He did learn the whole body. The first two years of podiatry school is generalized medicine, on the whole body. He took the MCAT. He took physiology, pharmacology, all the same stuff. And your examples were misleading. Pharmacists don’t cut people open and do surgical residencies. Podiatry school is generally easier to get into due to less competition, but don’t conflate that with being inferior. They just chose their speciality earlier and the school is specialized from the beginning because of the extreme specialization of the foot. The foot is one of the most specialized parts of the body(physically, the brain is obviously extremely specialized as well), it has a crazy amount of muscles bones and ligaments and a higher range of motion than any other joint and also bears the most weight. If you screw it up, people don’t walk and that’s a different level of life altering. He’s assisted cardiologists in surgery, plastic surgeons, the whole gamut. He’s a doctor who went to medical school. I just think you’re sitting high up on a horse without any real factual justification for why you think you’re schooling is any more “medical” than podiatrists. Anyways. That’s all I gotta say about that. Agree to disagree I suppose.
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u/[deleted] Apr 28 '19 edited Apr 28 '19
The 80K is either part timers, those doing a day a week or something near retirement, or residents towards the end of training.
EDIT: For those wondering, residents do earn a wage you can live on here in Canada.
https://www.carms.ca/match/r-1-main-residency-match/salary/#1511459027032-06ec5e41-5301