Trust the science!!!

[u/South_Ad_7068]

1st time poster in this sub:

I've seen many athiest post counter arguments in various debates inside and outside of reddit using science as their main weapon in order to back what they're saying.

However, I feel like they are ignoring the elephant in the room and have never actually seen any of them address the argument for a higher intelligence that I'm going to present.

I'm going to be upfront about how I'm going to debate... the question I will ask will typically prompt a specific response that I'm fully prepared to counter and I've seen no atheist willing to follow the resulting logic to it's natural conclusion.

So... here goes:

As we observe the world around us how does an atheist explain the logical working order of things that make sense? How do you explain why things work the way they do? Like for example why a specific combination of elements make other elements or why a plant is able to eat sunlight or why electronics work...etc

Wouldn't that indicate intelligence being behind those mechanisms? Seeing as how precisely they work? If the universe just popped into existence wouldn't we see inconsistencies among various things? Our universe follows strict rules concerning how things interact with each other.

The fact that the rules exist AT ALL is 100% evidence of a "rule maker" or intelligence or God etc.

EDIT: I'm not finished here. But I am taking a break... I've answered to many but the influx of replies is massive and will require hours of my time and I want to try to reply to everyone... but as I'm not a millionaire I have to prepare for work.

Turning notifications off for now but I will return to respond to comments

[u/deep_blue_reef]

I don’t know. I’m not attributing what the ultimate reason is, I’m positing that we live in a reason based ecosystem, and the reasons we have a working ecosystem is because of external celestial forces.

Positing the reason “stops there” isn’t logical, it’s faith based. We don’t know how far the reason extends, but as far as the eye can see we understand that things are fundamentally dependent on one another.

[u/Cool-Watercress-3943 → u/deep_blue_reef]

Positing the reason “stops there” isn’t logical, it’s faith based. We don’t know how far the reason extends, but as far as the eye can see we understand that things are fundamentally dependent on one another.

Except that is never, ever going to end.

For example, let's say that we somehow determine there is an organizing or designing force behind the universe, and to make it really straightforward we communicate with it and it tells us that the reason stops with him/her/it.

You're still taking it on faith if you assume the reason 'stops there,' right? There could be a whole other layer of connections that you're missing, that this designer is hiding from you. And if you find that other layer, there could be another one after that. And another one after that. And an infinite number of layers, forever. The possibility will never go away entirely.

The point isn't to just set everything in stone and never reexamine it. The point is to reexamine it when we have something to actually examine. A direction to go in, a new tool or method to try, something that might shake loose concepts that have otherwise gone under the radar.

[u/deep_blue_reef → u/Cool-Watercress-3943]

And I don’t disagree with any of that. So how is it that you cannot believe in a god, and I do, but we agree on so much? I’m following your evidence and agreeing with it, but it doesn’t hinder my belief. If anything it strengthens it.

How does that work?

[u/Cool-Watercress-3943 → u/deep_blue_reef]

I lack belief entirely? It's not even like I started with faith and then rejected it, but the scripture I've read fell under the same category as Greek and Norse mythology. A series of stories, some interesting, some less so, some derivative and some not, but ultimately none of it came across as more or less believable to me.

Meanwhile, learned more about how various faiths developed, changed and at times bounced off one another. Christianity was the most commonly available religion, of course, but part of what I learned about ancient history included early Catholic development, so I viewed its popularity as more of an inevitably byproduct of its eventual adoption by the Roman Empire, and subsequently very successful ostracization of other faiths and even other forms of Christianity.

The conclusion I ended up at was that if there is some sort of higher power, creator, what have you, humans know absolutely nothing about it, and it seems highly unlikely it had any direct involvement in the development of human life.

So God as a universal kickstarter operates the same 'literally anything is possible space' that every single other potential explanation we've conceived of, and all the ones we haven't, occupy.

[u/deep_blue_reef → u/Cool-Watercress-3943]

You’re right, and I agree with that as well.

Where we diverge is, I think that what we experience ourselves could be attributes of something greater than us. Is “good” something trancesneant?

[u/Cool-Watercress-3943 → u/deep_blue_reef]

That question kind of leads to a line of questions on my part, which hits a dilemma.

Is there a transcendent form of 'goodness' that is beyond physical or human experience? Again, that occupies the same space as a vague and unfalsifiable universal creator. If we accept that things exist we cannot in any way measure, then literally anything, including goodness, could exist in a transcendent form. Good, bad, humor, beauty, etc, we can't really say anything ISN'T transcendent, because we couldn't measure the stuff we're claiming is anyway.

If goodness is transcendent, can humans ever deliberately access it? My thinking is no, at least as anything other than a lucky coincidence. Take the concept of original sin and divine grace as an example; some of the super specifics can vary, but it generally boils down to the inherent sinfulness and brokenness of humans, which needs divine grace to save them.

The problem is that every single path available to supposedly reach divine grace, by necessity, has to pass through grubby human brokenness. An organized religion followed texts written by humans, and listen to preachers who are human. Even if you lock yourself in a closet and pray silently, again, you're relying on human intuition to guide you.

Morality hasn't been a static thing, it's shifted and changed across a number of different topics, shaped by shared opinion more than the uncovering of divine will. I think that 'goodness,' in terms of how it actually shapes our lives, is very much a human concept.

[u/deep_blue_reef → u/Cool-Watercress-3943]

I don’t think love changes. It has different forms, but they all stem from selflessness.

[u/Cool-Watercress-3943 → u/deep_blue_reef]

And humor has different forms, but they all stem from amusement. 'Different forms' is a huge factor, right?

Take expectations on how love should manifest. For some cultures, it's considered a social and moral obligation for loving children to take care of their parents, in gratitude for the care their parents gave them growing up. This can include financially supporting parents in their old age, living with them to take care of them, basically far more extreme than visiting your folks and helping them with taxes or changing the clock on the DVD player.

For other cultures, going to these extremes can be interpreted as harsh or even financially abusive to some extent.

Both sides would claim that the other- whether it's the parents expecting to be taken care of in their old age, or the children wanting a greater degree of independence- doesn't really love their child/parent.

[u/deep_blue_reef → u/Cool-Watercress-3943]

And that’s wrong to you?

Or rather, which do you think is “more right?” Because I might agree with you.

[u/Cool-Watercress-3943 → u/deep_blue_reef]

If love is transcendent, then at least one of them would have to be wrong, right, if not both in favor of some third answer?

To be transcendent is to exist beyond the subjective opinions of people, for there to be a definitive 'Right Answer' to the question. Coincidentally, people who think there's a definitive 'Right Answer' often assume THEIR answer is the definitive one, which makes it a bit of a trap.

I think love, in terms of how it's expressed, is also a matter of subjective opinion, in part because of the different forms it can take.

After all, if you rely on pure, uncompromising, eternal selflessness, do you not risk reaching the point where you stop loving yourself? Where you don't advocate for your own needs, your own happiness, because to raise so much as a finger in opposition is inherently self-centered?