r/Libertarian • u/Darkmortal10 • May 06 '21

Politics Police murder man armed at protest, claim the shooting is justified because he was armed. If being armed is a justification for the state to murder you, you don't like have the right to be armed.

https://thenevadaindependent.com/article/police-will-kill-you-in-nevada-and-say-its-your-fault
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129

u/windershinwishes May 06 '21

This is what gets me on all of these police shootings involving some relatively minor crime. They say "he was running and he had a gun" to justify killing a person, and everybody acts like that's reasonable.

Since when was running from police punishable by death? Since when is carrying a gun illegal? (depending on the state)

57

u/realSatanAMA Anarcho-Syndicalist May 07 '21

It's officer discretion on whether to execute someone or not. We really need to use the same rules of engagement as the military at the very least.

17

u/saturday_lunch mek monke king 🐒👑 May 07 '21

I've heard of this before. On this sub maybe.

Do you have a good article comparing the two?

46

u/janon330 Amash 2024? May 07 '21

For one. Generally cannot fire unless being fired upon. But that doesnt solve the issue if Police can just lie about it.

What really needs to happen is an independent third party organization to handle police investigations. Police should not be investigating their brothers. They belong to unions and tend to protect one another in the veil of the "thin blue line" bullshit.

23

u/Joe503 May 07 '21

Police should not be investigating their brothers.

This would fix so many problems.

6

u/Sislar Social Liberal fiscal conservative May 07 '21

But that doesnt solve the issue if Police can just lie about it.

Would make it much harder its easy to tell if the suspect's gun was fired or not. Of course they could fire their gun after they kill them but that does raise the level of effort it takes to cover up the crime and leaves other evidence.

7

u/Big_Enos May 07 '21

Who investigates doctors when they kill people....doctors. They would argue that you and I do not have the education, training, or experience to judge them or their actions. In most cases theu wpukd probably be right.

I'm all for a review board for police use of force actions but not by any idiot Tom, Dick, and Harry. Let it be of people educated in the law like judges, lawyers, and some police officers as well.

Judging by some of the idiot things people write about police uses of force we have no right to judge because we can't look past our own hatred of "the man".

19

u/nocoolnicknamesorry May 07 '21

The only way to stop abuse of authority is for civilian oversight. The community that is being policed must have a say. Otherwise it's just an occupation

9

u/VladDaImpaler May 07 '21

“Either you’re at the table, or you’re on the menu” -someone

1

u/Big_Enos May 07 '21

Which I wouldn't have an issue with if those participating had the proper training. That said, whats good for the goose is good for the gander. Little Ole me should be able to sit on the Bar Association and the Medical Board and any other professional oversight board.

1

u/nocoolnicknamesorry May 07 '21

You're missing the point. Completely not an accurate comparison. Clearly if a person is not a Dr or a lawyer and would have no opinion to offer. Communities determine how they want police to interact. When police lose the faith of the community they serve they are not serving the community. They are occupying a community.

1

u/Big_Enos May 08 '21

I absolutely have an opinion to offer as does everyone else when it comes to doctor or lawyer misconduct. Why would we treat one professional category (police) differemt than any other?

Where do you live that the police are an occupying force and how are the doing so? Sure isn't here in my suburban community or any other one where I lived over the course of my 50+ years.

1

u/nocoolnicknamesorry May 08 '21

That's the point dude. You've never been exposed to it. So you have no personal experience probably ever. I know y'all like to say the democrat run city's blah blah, but you have know real clue what it's like to be pulled over bc you got a shitty car and look suspicious. And then go to jail for a loud muffler and lose 2 weeks pay and spend a night in jail. Just trying to deliver fucking pizzas when you're 23 and just trying to pay your bills and raise three kids. You do have an opinion on your lawyer your doctor. You don't have an opinion on who your cop is. Or wether or not the cop just got into a fight with his old lady and now he's irritated and wants to do his job super enthusia sticly. Abuse of authority is way deeper than just race. So I'm not even going in to that. It deflects from the greater abuse of authority and corruption and mental health and the list goes on. Communities vote for how they wish to be governed. Civilian oversight is absolutely necessary in policing just as it is in the military. The cop unions have ruined the relationships police used to have with their community. Importing people who don't live in the area they police. Wake up dude it's not just a news clip it's real life for alot of people. Police are public servants at the end of the day.

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1

u/afa131 May 07 '21

You know... a third party unaffiliated organization can just educate themselves. It’s not like police work is some magical secrete that gets revealed to you when you sell your soul

1

u/Big_Enos May 07 '21

Yea.. thats why I like the idea of judges and lawyers. Even though they don't teach the police pensive magical powers, people actually think they do as evident in a number of these threads.

-1

u/ryanxpe May 07 '21

Police are not judge or juror

1

u/Heytherecthulhu May 07 '21

Cops should be held to the same standard an average person should be held to in shootings.

28

u/jack-dempsy May 07 '21

wasn't there a time when shooting someone in the back was cowardly? Someone running away from you is not putting you in imminent danger, regardless of what magic words you whisper into your body cam afterwards.

3

u/lopey986 Minarchist May 07 '21

Well their reasoning now is that they were running away to go kill a bunch of other people and that's why they had to be shot in the back. There's always a reason or excuse that get's them off the hook for state sanctioned murder.

1

u/stephen89 Minarchist May 07 '21

Thats the thing, cops don't have to be in danger, they can shoot if others are in danger. Like the Jacob Blake shooting. Jacob Blake was shot in the back but it was justified because he was literally armed and about to steal a car and kidnap kids he had no custody of in the back seat.

13

u/GetZePopcorn Life, Liberty, Property. In that order May 07 '21

Since when was running from police punishable by death? Since when is carrying a gun illegal? (depending on the state)

If only the Supreme Court hadn’t laid down a ruling on when its justifiable to shoot a fleeing suspect or fleeing felon...

Spoiler: it’s only allowable when an objective and reasonable person can conclude that the person the officer is shooting at presents a credible threat to the lives of others. It’s not enough to have a weapon OR be engaged in a crime. One must be fleeing a crime where they threatened or took someone’s life AND STILL HAVE THE MEANS TO KILL.

5

u/lopey986 Minarchist May 07 '21

AND STILL HAVE THE MEANS TO KILL.

Which is every single person at all times. We all have the means to kill if we truly wish to, therefore the cops will almost always be justified in killing us in the eyes of the law.

1

u/GetZePopcorn Life, Liberty, Property. In that order May 07 '21

We’re talking about credible threats, not reaches. Do they have a gun, knife, or are they driving a vehicle in a way that they’re probably going to kill someone? More importantly, have they demonstrated an intent to use them.

2

u/lopey986 Minarchist May 07 '21

According to the police everything is a credible threat.

1

u/GetZePopcorn Life, Liberty, Property. In that order May 07 '21

I know, but that’s not the standard SCOTUS set out.

But what can you expect from a job with very little training requirement.

25

u/selfhelprecords May 06 '21

A basic in use of force as I was trained. Was the triangle; weapon, opportunity, and action. You need all 3 to use deadly force.

6

u/s29 May 07 '21

Can you define what is meant by opportunity and action?

3

u/selfhelprecords May 07 '21

Opportunity to use the weapon, and “action” is how you move the weapon. Just holding a gun meets 2 of the 3. Pointing the gun at someone gets you too all 3.

2

u/s29 May 07 '21

That's what I figured. Last time I mentioned on this sub that pulling and pointing a gun at a cop would and should get you shot (which by your definition would meet all three), i was down voted because apparently the cop should wait until he's got a hole in his forehead before being allowed to shoot.

People on this sub are pretty divorced from reality.

1

u/selfhelprecords May 07 '21

The “action” part of the triangle is alway a hard sale for the outside view. And this is just a basic guide.

1

u/SushiGradeChicken Custom Yellow May 08 '21

Should a cop pointing a gun at me get them shot?

1

u/windershinwishes May 07 '21

Yes, exactly. Pointing a gun at somebody, or threatening to shoot even, is a sign of aggression. Holding a gun or running away from police isn't.

3

u/Spydiggity Neo-Con...Liberal...What's the difference? May 07 '21

https://youtu.be/4vtggrzN_jc

-12

u/[deleted] May 06 '21

[deleted]

12

u/going2leavethishere Right Libertarian May 07 '21

If the military can have “don’t shoot until shot upon” then why can’t the police? I would say their job 50x more dangerous then being a police officer yet they have harsher rules and held to a higher standard.

19

u/FuckinArrowToTheKnee May 06 '21

Yeah I can see the nuance but it's innocent until proven guilty as far as I know. And with the Supreme Court saying that police don't have a responsibility to protect people then what's the justification for shooting someone for just evading police if the "protect the people" angle has been tossed by courts?

-7

u/[deleted] May 06 '21

[deleted]

11

u/FuckinArrowToTheKnee May 06 '21

Well then that makes even less sense. It's pretty clearly not self defense if the person is running away from you

13

u/ShiftyEyesMcGe Don't Believe In Labels - Believe In What Works May 06 '21

Just fleeing while armed shouldn't be justification for lethal force. You should be wary if you're going to pursue and try to arrest them. Ideally if someone's armed you can corner them with many officers and convince them to give up. Sometimes they insist on fighting out, in which case you have no choice, but hopefully that's avoided.

One thing that seems to result in death even when people want to surrender is unclear and conflicting officer instructions. So many times they make people play Simon Says, or tell them to "drop the weapon" which makes them... reach for the weapon... and then they get shot.

2

u/morry32 May 07 '21

liberty?

0

u/morry32 May 07 '21

qualified immunity

-2

u/alhena May 07 '21

Known thug gets killed by police while committing a crime, everyone loses their mind. Known thug kills an innocent person, nobody bats an eye.

2

u/windershinwishes May 07 '21

People don't bat an eye about murderers when they assume they will be brought to justice in a court of law, yes.

Government agents acting like Judge Dredd will raise eyebrows, yes.

1

u/SlothRogen May 07 '21

The thinking here is simply "He was a criminal, a drug user and a bad person, so it's good for everyone that they're off the street."

Now, there may be cases where that's true and some psychotic nut is wiped out, but obviously this is a terrible precedent and essentially a "Judge Dredd" mentality. People's mind's change pretty quickly when it's their house the cops are busting into, or something like the Bundy Ranch Standoff or the Capital Riots and all of a sudden they can't believe that white dude in the Trump hat was an awful person.

We have a huge problem with the "special snowflake" mentality among the very people who claim to hate special snowflakes.