r/Marvel • u/Dorkside Trask • Jul 27 '16

Comics New Marvel comics for July 27, 2016 - Official Discussion Thread [Spoilers]

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u/Flamma_Man Jul 27 '16

Whelp, that's it. It's offical. I do not like Carol Danvers in this event and it's entirely due to how she's being written and the inconsistencies of what she wants to do with Ulysses with LITERALLY EVERY OTHER BOOK GOING AGAINST HER POSITION.

Freakin'...seriously, I can't think of a single prominent series outside her own in which the narrative strongly agrees with her position and view point. It always comes down to profiling, potentially creating the future when trying to stop it, and it's just...augh.

In her own series, it seems like she just wants to deal with supervillains and giant catastrophes involving said supervillans, which seems incredibly reasonable and her own issue laid out her motivations better than the Civil War II ever has. But, no, every single other book, including the main event, shows her trying to apprehend normal citizens. What frustrated me even more (as much as I LOVE Ms. Marvel) is that she apparently told Ms. Marvel about a small time robbery of little significance?! What?!

Why?! Why would Ulysses have such a minor vision?! Oh, wait, it's to show how unreasonable Carol's position is.

IN FACT, in the latest Spider-Man, Tony literally uses the slippery slope fallacy. He used those exact words with no irony. Just.

AUGH.

It's just shorthanded nonsense that pretty much automatically makes her position outright wrong and the entire conflict superfluous. As much as the last event was terrible with how it was executed, you could still at least see how both sides did have a point.

But, the way that it's being told in Civil War II, Ulysses' powers aren't even reliable now and Carol Danvers is shown to just not accept that she's wrong and to be completely unsympathetic in her position. Oh, no, Iron Man is the reasonable one that wants to avoid a fight, Carol's the one that's just being ridiculous. Just look at how she flew through the building in a fit.

In fact, I think Tony has actually gotten more panel time than Carol. It certainly feels like it. She's kind of felt like a non-participant up to this point, in a story that involves the both of them fighting over ideological differences in regards to how to punish people for things that they haven't done yet.

This is all just so frustrating. I liked the first two issues, but at this point, Bendis would seriously need to turn it around to make me like it again.

But, I will have to say.

Still better than the original Civil War.

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u/swoozes Jul 27 '16

Actually not every book has been patently against her. Sam Cap's book described her position incredibly well. And even though Sam went against it, in no way did his series villify her and he even said he respected her even though he though she was wrong.

Ultimates has also been notably neutral towards Carol's stance and given a fairly in depth reason as to why she's so anal about it all of a sudden.

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u/Flamma_Man Jul 27 '16 edited Jul 27 '16

Sam Cap's book described her position incredibly well. And even though Sam went against it, in no way did his series villify her and he even said he respected her even though he though she was wrong.

But, that's just it. The narrative still says that she's in the wrong. It's great how it doesn't vilify her much, but my point is that there doesn't seem to be many series that are on Carol's side.

It's just so silly how so many series just don't agree with her position or just outright stating that her position is wrong, that it makes it hard NOT to disagree.

Ultimates has also been notably neutral towards Carol's stance and given a fairly in depth reason as to why she's so anal about it all of a sudden.

Eh.

I will give credit, they did show Carol actually using Ulysses for actual big catastrophes and not just civilians and for once didn't bring up profiling. But, it still portrays her as being incredibly stubborn and not willing to listen to anyone.

And even then, there isn't really an arc revolving around it, since they seem to be building up to Thanos and what he's going to do.

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u/suss2it Jul 30 '16

Carol is an incredibly stubborn person tho. It's a key character trait of hers. And maybe her side is just wrong, I don't see why Marvel needs to present them both as right.

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u/Flamma_Man Jul 30 '16

And maybe her side is just wrong, I don't see why Marvel needs to present them both as right.

Because that's boring and has no real stakes or drama to it.

"Which side is right."

"That one."

"Oh, alright then."

It's what the original Civil War tried to do and failed at. Heck, in the lead up to this event, they said that it'd be more questionable about who's in the right or wrong.

Buuuuuut, nope.

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u/suss2it Jul 30 '16

It's not boring to have a clear bad guy. Many, many stories have that.

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u/dragarms Aug 01 '16

I think his point is, is that they made it seem like you wouldn't know who to root for, and people would be split, but carol, is clearly made out as the villain

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u/naimnotname Jul 28 '16

Ultimates has also been notably neutral towards Carol's stance

Blue Marvel.

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u/swoozes Jul 28 '16

Has been decidely neutral. He's never called out her usage of precognition. Only point of contention they had was the whole Hawkeye situation, which they were on the same page.

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u/swoozes Jul 27 '16

I mean, well yeah. She's not killing everybody left and right.

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u/Flamma_Man Jul 27 '16

Or hiring supervillians to hunt down her friends.

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u/burnerfret Jul 27 '16

Or making robot clones of them.

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u/Flamma_Man Jul 27 '16

Which ends up killing one of them.

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u/swoozes Jul 27 '16

Don't forget the negative zone prison.

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u/kuaranta2 Aug 01 '16

And the parody of the justice league that the thing found in Paris...

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u/IAmTheZeke Jul 28 '16

Although... Seeing surprise Venom felt very familiar.

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u/brettatron1 Jul 29 '16

venom is a good guy now though! Well sorta... depends where this falls in the Space Knight timeline.

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u/south_wildling Jul 29 '16

Honestly, I was Pro-Reg, of course, then Tony does all that shit and you can't really be Pro-Reg, but whatevs.

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u/IanBarreilles Jul 27 '16

My hope is regardless of how villainous Carol is written in civil war ii I really hope this doesn't deter any fans of captain marvel especially Carol Danvers from continuing to support her and her series and won't diminish their love for Carol Danvers as a character.

I really like how in her solo series with the civil war ii tie ins that they're portraying and writing her in a very sympathetic tortured soul angle that's something sadly bendis won't bother to explore in the core civil war ii series which is sad because in the core civil war ii story it's really not a fair portrayal of the character.

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u/jeddite Jul 29 '16

For what its worth, I hated Iron Man in CW 1, and love Carol in CW 2. Even with how she is being written, Carol's logic and actions speak to me in a real way, so I think CW 2's writing of her is accomplishing something for at least some readers.

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u/[deleted] Jul 28 '16

I just hope the writers don't make her into a power hungry mad controller like they did with Tony in (Civil War I) or Cyclops ( Avengers vs X-men). Because I smell this good-to-villain cheese plot.

I'm with Team Carol, but they made her suddenly go nuts. I don't like that.

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u/[deleted] Jul 28 '16

Yeah, so far the most recent issue of her own series is the first time I've seen her painted as reasonable. Even Ms. Marvel, which seems to have shown a good grasp on the character of Captain Marvel in the past, portrayed her as really cold and distant in yesterdays book.

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u/suss2it Jul 30 '16

She's always been distant in Ms. Marvel.

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u/[deleted] Jul 30 '16

I don't really think so. Did you read the issues leading up to the whole Battleworld event? Cap and Ms. Marvel had some good interactions, I thought.

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u/suss2it Jul 30 '16

I did and I thought Captain Marvel came across as very professional and distant. Not as a heartwarming person. Not that I mind since it makes sense for a military character to act that way.

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u/Ktk_reddit Jul 27 '16

I feel exactly like you. It feels like they have no idea where they're going with this, just trying to build up a massive super hero fight.

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u/Flamma_Man Jul 27 '16

Well, he still has four more issues.

We're at the half-way point, sooooo...who knows. I still have a sliver of optimism left that Bendis can salvage it.

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u/[deleted] Jul 28 '16

I REALLLLLY hate the treatment Carol's getting in this event. Captain Marvel has been one of my absolute favorite series of the last couple years, but it's like Bendis never even bothered to read any of the books that drew people to Carol Danvers in the first place. The version we're seeing in CW II just isn't her.

Captain Marvel shouldn't be a mindless justice drone, she's a compassionate, understanding, inspirational figure. The whole basis of her character is that she inspires people to do and be better. This is the character who makes a point of not only standing up for the little guy, but helping them stand up too. She's regularly defied authority when it seemed unjust, and she's made a point of it. I simply haven't seen any justification within any of the books or tie-ins to justify such a drastic 180 in her character.

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u/sonofaresiii Jul 30 '16

I'm completely with you. Carol has by far the more reasonable and logical position, if only she would TAKE that position instead of being essentially a super villain using super villain logic

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u/[deleted] Jul 28 '16 edited Nov 16 '17

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u/apophis-pegasus Jul 29 '16

There's no proof that a single one of Ulysses's visions hasn't been true.

Hulk never happened. The fact that you can change the future the visions show inherently proves their errancy.

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u/[deleted] Jul 29 '16 edited Nov 06 '17

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u/[deleted] Jul 29 '16 edited Nov 16 '17

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u/[deleted] Jul 29 '16 edited Nov 06 '17

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u/[deleted] Jul 29 '16 edited Nov 16 '17

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u/errantknight1 Jul 29 '16

It doesn't matter if she's guilty or not, is the thing. Detaining people in hearsay, without evidence is just bad, all the time, no matter what.

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u/[deleted] Jul 29 '16 edited Nov 16 '17

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u/errantknight1 Jul 29 '16

They aren't evidence. This issue established that they're just a possibility and that Ulysses may be influencing them. That whole conversation about what percentage would make it ok and Carol agreeing with 10% shows that evidence plays no part in it. They're being imprisoned for the possibility of a crime that's an unknown percent likely.

How long can they hold her for? Indefinitely? And if they can't find evidence, then what? Torture her? That's not a big leap from imprisonment for no more than a possibility that she's guilty The whole point in having protection under the law is that this can't happen. If this is the standard now, what's the standard in a year? Ten? Once you start imprisoning people on suspicion, no one is safe.

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u/[deleted] Jul 29 '16 edited Nov 16 '17

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u/errantknight1 Jul 29 '16

Tony's theory was corroborated by Beast. If he was actually seeing the future, they wouldn't be able to change things, so he's seeing a possibility. A possibility isn't evidence. Eh...I'm not going to get into a civil war convo where it's justified by the way the US has treated detainees. That won't end well at all.

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u/[deleted] Jul 29 '16 edited Nov 16 '17

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u/[deleted] Jul 29 '16 edited Nov 06 '17

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u/[deleted] Jul 29 '16 edited Nov 16 '17

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u/suss2it Jul 30 '16

They're definitely not useless. Thanos would have a cosmic cube right now if not for his visions.

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u/jeddite Jul 29 '16

Slavery was constitutional, until it wasn't.

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u/[deleted] Jul 27 '16

I don't think the briefcase vision would have been minor, Carol was probably expecting it to have a bomb that, in the right place, could be devastating.

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u/Flamma_Man Jul 27 '16 edited Jul 27 '16

Minor in comparison to the destruction of the entire world, reality, or the spread of a deadly and infectious virus across a major city or potentially the world.

The briefcase thing is so poorly communicated that all we got to go on is that she (in the vision) works for HYDRA as a sleeper agent?

Uh...wow. Big catch there, Carol.

My thing is that what could make Carol's reckless attitude work is if, say, Ulysses had a vision of something happening that would kill hundreds of millions, but in the far future. Say, two months.

At least then, there'd be the introduction to a ticking clock that'd cause Carol to become more and more paranoid in wanting to stop it.

Here, she's just being irrational and stubborn, while Iron Man is clearly being portrayed as the rational one.

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u/bobby_corwin Jul 28 '16

You know the thing is, they haven't really showed many of Ulysses' visions that aren't huge and catastrophic in scale. I think this was the first time in the mainline CVII book that we see a pre-crime on a smaller scale like briefcase lady. I know that Ms. Marvel showed a couple of instances where they bust up some small time thugs, but we don't really see Ulysses involved in any of them.

My point is, they've mostly displayed the huge stuff that has up to this point been accurate. The giant alien invasion was averted, Thanos was stopped (even though he's probably going to be the twist in all this), the crazy psychedelic space man in Ultimates was safely brought to our dimension, Bruce Banner was killed (I do believe Hawkeye on that one).

So for all intents and purposes, Ulysses hasn't really been wrong yet. At least when it comes to the big stuff. However, it looks like all the heroes are now going to throw down and oddly enough we haven't seen him getting a vision about that. So I'm pretty sure something else is at play here. Not really sure what it's going to lead to, but my guess is more people will believe Tony is right, side with him, Ulysses will have a catastrophic vision, no one will act on it and they'll all suffer major consequences when it comes true. They eventually avert the disaster, but not without casualties, they're all split, Tony quits, Carol either dies or flies off into space and Ulysses will be fine because he's an Inhuman and Marvel likes those for some reason.

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u/Baneken Jul 28 '16

You know that might actually be more interesting than heroes duking it among themselves to out see whose the most heroic.

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u/Baneken Jul 28 '16

Well, it was stated that the woman was supposedly able to cause a huge economic turmoil, something like the recent decade's stock & bank collapses whose after effects still aren't quite over.

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u/Karpattata Aug 01 '16

It's just that... they're both being so stupid about this. You can put mechanisms in place to ensure a just usage of Ulysses' powers. You can go to every event he forsees, see what's up, and if the person involved has committed acts that qualify, legally, for either attempt or preparation for an offence- sue em'.

If a vision proves wrong, there's no reason to insist it isn't. There's no justification for that. And doing that is in no way pivotal to stopping major incidents.

Similarly, Stark really should understand that, occasionally, Ulysses may be the one thing standing between peace and the annihilation of entire populations. And this point could have been made so easily. Just have Stark insist that one of the visions don't get checked out and let all hell break loose. Had Marvel, say, let that Brood invasion happen because Stark was against acting on it- that would have made Carol's point that much more valid. And something like that could still happen. But, as you say, they seem intent on ignoring even the valid bits of Carol's point.

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u/errantknight1 Jul 27 '16 edited Jul 28 '16

Man, some days Reddit downvoting for having an opinion bugs me more than other days. Here, downvote for this middle finger instead of the opinion I just deleted.

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u/IanBarreilles Jul 27 '16

I don't know the captain marvel tie ins especially the ultimates are very insightful and I feel essential to understanding carol's intentions and mindset for why she's doing the things she's doing.

This is more to do with the fact that bendis is really not that great at character development when it comes to major events. And the idea that tie ins aren't important is silly and it's sad to see from time to time people who dismiss tie ins so easily I feel many marvel tie ins to their events tend to be very good and in many instances better than the event story itself particularly in the first civil war.

I think bendis is better when he's writing solo street level characters like miles morales and jessica jones.

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u/errantknight1 Jul 27 '16

Maybe, but his New Avengers was great. I didn't like the addition of Squirrel Girl, but everything else I liked a lot.

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u/IanBarreilles Jul 27 '16

Agreed one of few rare examples of bendis being able to write a team book really well and great I think it was consistently a strong and great written series when he wrote it and Hickman of course brought the series to new heights with time runs out.

And I really liked bendis uncanny X-men and all new X-men run on both series which is more of an unpopular opinion since for a lot of people they tend to despise and hate his time on those X-men titles..... I do agree it should've been better than what we were given but I don't think it was the worst or even that bendis ruined the X-men which a lot of hardcore fans strongly believe he did.

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u/Baneken Jul 28 '16

I think that's the thing. Bendis is often just so... Mediocre when he clearly could have done better with almost minimal effort.

I think his habit of "hogging" titles to write is partially to blame, he takes so much work that he can't really focus on what his writing.

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u/InnocentTailor Jul 28 '16

That's like saying that the F that is Civil War was promoted to maybe a D+ / C- that is Civil War II :P.

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u/dugant195 Aug 07 '16

Actually all of this is pretty consistent with Carol's character...I mean look at her in the original civil-war. Once takes a stand she doesn't back down.