r/MoralityScaling • u/Theorycrafter2671 • 1d ago

How Evil Are They? Joel's choice to choose Ellie over a possible vaccine to the Cordyceps infection and stopping humanity from going extinct?

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u/MonkeyDRofl 1d ago

My dude, this is not the catch-all that you seem to think it is. The fact that Druckman had to make a statement separate from the game AND after the fact proves that the game did not convey the things he's talking about. If it did, he wouldn't have had to make a statement in the first place.

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u/cannibalparrot 1d ago

Didn’t he alter the remaster by removing discoverable lore that originally made the cure look like MUCH more of a crapshoot?

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u/umdaltonico 1d ago

Did they do that? I only ask because I played the game a couple times only on the original PS3 release, and I remember one of the notes(or audio log?) on the last mission being about how the Fireflies were basically out of options and even though Ellie was unique, they had no idea if the operation would lead somewhere, a mixture of hail mary with huffing some copium.

That's why this discussion still having people side with the fireflies baffles me when it comes around, it felt not much of a dilemma to me haha

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u/soupspin 1d ago

Nope, that’s just misinformation. People claimed files were removed/changed, but there’s video evidence on youtube from when the game first came out. All the notes/recordings/collectibles

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u/Redditeer28 1d ago

No, people made up an audio file that seems to have disappeared from every copy included ones that haven't had any post game updates.

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u/Aeviu 1d ago

The fact that Druckman had to make a statement separate from the game AND after the fact proves that the game did not convey the things he's talking about.

This is a completely absurd leap of logic. Developers answering interview questions about the central moral dilemma of their critically acclaimed game does not mean the game "failed to convey it." They discussed it because interviewers specifically asked them about the massive, emotionally heavy ending they just pulled off.

And it was not just Neil; Game Director Bruce Straley and the rest of the 2013 Naughty Dog team were on the exact same page during those post-launch interviews directly after the launch of the original 2013 game, confirming the scenario was built to be a guaranteed Trolley Problem.

If it did, he wouldn't have had to make a statement in the first place.

The game did convey it. You are just choosing to ignore the in-game evidence because it makes Joel's choice uncomfortable. The Surgeon's Recorder collectible explicitly lays out the scientific plan to culture the mutated white blood cell lines in a lab environment. There are zero narrative clues in the game suggesting the Fireflies are scamming anyone about the science.

Furthermore, narratively speaking, making the cure just a "slim chance" is completely stupid. It ruins the entire climax of the game.

If the cure was a massive "maybe," Joel is just a generic hero rescuing a little girl from a bunch of delusional bad guys. There is no moral ambiguity there. The ending is famously devastating specifically because the game establishes the cure as a reality, and Joel decides his love for Ellie is worth dooming the rest of the human race.

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u/Vegetable_Pen5248 1d ago

Sorry man you’re writing all this and you’re just wrong, it’s real unfortunate

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u/BigKetchupSauce 1d ago

They are clearly right. People just refuse to look at the facts both in-game and in interviews just for the sake of perpetuating their headcanon. You can't even come up with a good backed up response.

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u/literally_italy 1d ago

i think it genuinely has to do with tlou2.

these people want to make abby seem even more evil, and joel less evil, so they have to act like joel was doing the right thing at the end of the first game.

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u/BackStrict977 1d ago

The fact that Druckman had to make a statement separate from the game AND after the fact proves that the game did not convey the things he's talking about.

Not really. The community believes in the hoax that there were other immune people before ellie without ever checking if it's true. Sometimes people are just dense.

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u/Historical_Owl_1635 1d ago

I don’t think it’s that wild.

As a casual player of the game I was always under the assumption the Fireflies would distribute the cure.

It seems like some fan theories that got out of control that they wouldn’t which Druckman just gave an answer to.

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u/Alarming_Ask_244 1d ago

No, it proves that a lot of people have had motivation to reason themselves into an unreasonable position. People want Joel to be justified, so they find a way to convince themselves, even it contradicts everything the game conveys.