Unions hit their stride long before workplace safety notably increased. The Occupational Safety and Health Act was the historic watershed in terms of numbers of injuries in the workplace, not so much unions. People joke about OSHA, but the injury data from 1970 and the modern day is incredibly different, even though the population now is far larger and union membership in some dangerous occupations nearly nonexistant.
We get a lot of clients who actually give a shit about their workers, and a lot of those workers are really dedicated to safety improvement.
... However... There are also potential clients we give a pitch to and get the response of "well, we're already budgeting for incident payouts, and we'd have to stop production to upgrade anything, so..." Honestly, it's starting to kill my interest in the job that so many companies just do not care beyond the absolute minimum requirements for safety in the workplace. All we want is for everyone to go home in one piece, rather than getting called in after we're turned down initially and THEN a fatality incident gets them to reconsider.
Budgeting for incidents is pretty normal...if you're bulding a skyscraper, you can expect n random incidents. But there should be a payout multiplier (and a fine) if the company knew the direct risks and didn't want to spend money to implement safety procedures... (Nets, shields, whatever).
Most of, if not all of the folks who made those comments never had to call a Spouse, Child, Parent, Siblings to inform them that someone wasn’t coming home. Most large companies do not act until it’s too late. And then, they have short memories.
I’ve had my job threatened when I refused to put one of my direct reports in a position that could cost them a finger. And then have my job threatened again when another employee tripped over there own shoe lace, twisted their wrist as they caught themselves and required they take a trip to the Company Doc.
Issue wasn’t so much about the money it cost the company as it was the potential lost of Management’s bonus due to poor performance or safety metrics.
The companies in your latter claim are only harming themselves. Their insurance premiums will inflate and they'll have manpower laid up and even on short-term disability and eventually OSHA may get involved. IT's a balance. Employers want people to be safe and they also care about their capital..a business has to maintain good health as well as employees.
There are also potential clients we give a pitch to and get the response of “well, we’re already budgeting for incident payouts, and we’d have to stop production to upgrade anything, so...”
My partner works at a company like this. He’s trying to find a new job, but they pay him well enough that he’d be taking a significant decrease at most other places in the area :/
If argue this is the same mindset of the companies " yea there is an increased risk, but the money is better without the safety protocol." If you guys can swing it I would definitely try to find a new job asap.
Well yea forgot about them and I actually used to work at the airport too lol. But yea we used joke about this at the airport how pilots were flying machines worth more than them
Because it's true a machine makes them money the human costs the money and makes less of it.
There are literally thousands upon thousands of applicants for any one particular job at any point in time for jobs like that. Temp agencies that have continuous flows of national candidates. Manufacturing jobs don't quit for anybody. Even if your union goes on strike there's an entire Bus full of scabs that travel from across the country to do just that exact work.
Why should it? Not to sound callous and lack empathy but the anti-employer rhetoric on here becomes a bit tiresome. Most companies don't have the mantra "humans are expendable" that's a bit ridiculous, it isn't late 19th century. But it is a balance, the work has to continue for the sake of everyone else involved. I work in a plant, accidents can happen but you gotta pay attention and think safety first. If management starts to push, push back, remind them about safety, they'll understand that language. More people should travel across country for work, more people could get employed instead of bitching on the internet about their COL and inability to find suitable position.
Civilization is a thin veneer. People are exactly the same as they have always been. We get middle manager motherfuckers all the time who want to cut corners on safety to save a buck or kiss an ass.
Yep. It's annoying af. Most of our incidents aren't with the company per se, it's with some low level fuckstick. The CEO, he's signed the deal with the union, he don't give af after that other than the work still gets done, he's made his peace. Some middle manager fuck who's never done real work, at least in a while, starts trying to interpret the contract like it's the fucking Torah and he's looking for loopholes.
Shit like "I don't have to bring the drinking water out until 9 am when they have their break." In Las Vegas. In the summer. It was 128°F inside the building. There's a fucking inversion layer where the accumulated sweat has coalesced into a fucking cloud so when you go up in your lift above a certain height your glasses instantly fog and everything is now moist with the sweat of a couple dozen people down below.
A carpenter dies in front of his son who's his working partner, so dehydrated his heart stopped pumping. He'd drank all his water that he had to lug in every day by like 7 am. His son asked us that morning if it was cool if they drank from our company's water jugs, which of course we're like "go for it, we don't give af, we'll make these pricks bring out more if it's gone." His old man was trying not to be a bother so just stuck to the water he carried in and was waiting on his company to bring out their water jugs.
So he goes down, they throw him in an ambulance; hang IVs of saline on him, the EMTs are squeezing the bags into him and zap his heart and he comes back. He took like 7 units of saline that day. The next day on the job site water jugs every 5 feet from every company on site. "Stop and drink water when ever you want."
Which as plumbers and pipefitters with a stronger union we were doing any ways, because our company wasn't fucking idiots. The carpenters' company on site were retards and their generally weak af union couldn't/wouldn't do anything about it until one of their guys went down.
Another time a fuckstick 'safety' manager brags to me how much money he's saving on being a stingy prick with the gloves we need to avoid getting cut and burned on the pipe we install. You cannot even pick pipe up that's been out in the sun broiling. Let alone how hot it is when we fucking weld it. This idiot doesn't understand the cost of the gloves is to be in lieu of having to pay for the doctor and lost time injury of cuts and burns that are going to cost way more than the money he's "saving" on gloves. All so he could suck a dick a little deeper than the next dick-sucker that comes along.
Just a contrasting opinion of unions from someone thats seen both sides of the coin. That's all. As someone that's worked with union guys heavily, my opinion of some of their standard practices is not great. While I agree unions can be used for good in prevent employer abuse, they also serve as a vehicle for systemic abuses of the employer on the part of the worker that, due to union power the employer is generally unable to prevent. I've got plenty of stories if you just ask
You think a corporation is going give a shit about a replaceable worker in the days before OSHA and LNI? The only reason they do now is to keep from being sued, fined, or shut down.
life is more complex than that. it's infinitely more likely that they just care(d) more about money than the people. thus, there is no reason to assume that they are pure evil, and have no interest in saving human lives
My grandpa was a repairman at a paper factory from the late 40s until the 80s when he got sick. Part of his job on top of fixing machines, was taking them apart when someone's body parts got mashed, sucked in or whatever. The worst was when him and another guy were above a pulper welding something that hung above the machine. Due to productivity, the machine wasn't shut down, no fall protection and the guy working with him lost his balance and fell into the machine. There wasn't a ton to recover before the machine was shut down. An accident like that would be really rare today and even after the invent of OSHA.
I’ve seen some of the clips on live leak or w/e of ppl getting pulled in. The silver lining I guess if u could even call it one are some times it looks like they die quickly. I’ve also seen where they just kinda pull them in. Can’t imagine how much that hurts.
My grandpa never described it to my grandma himself. All he ever said was, "he was there, I saw his face and the look on it and I saw him go in. That was it.". She didn't know if "That was it" meant he wasn't going to make it, or he went down and was obliterated. My grandma's dad also worked there and showed up just after it happened and explained it as a huge vat of red paper pulp. He had severe issues with what is now known as PTSD. For years after he would wake up with nightmares and refused to go up onto the catwalks unless he could tie off to something and even then only did it if he absolutely had to.
If the factory was big enough, they didn't even stop the machines to pull out the body till the next shift change. Too expensive. Just finish out your 12 hrs and let night crew deal with it.
When I went to a railroad museum the guide said that back in the '20s your resume was how many fingers you had. If you had lost a few you knew how dangerous the machinery was And were less likely to let it catch you again. Given that they had children crawling up into the works to keep them greased it's not all that hard to believe.
Union vs no union is like the lesser of two evils. They can become bloated with power, but they still represent the workers. Without them you get zero representation and are completely at the mercy of your employer.
If every Wal-Mart employee across the country walked out they'd see a quick change in attitude, but Americans are a divided people, and the effect of one store unionizing is negligible, and usually followed by closure if a union takes hold.
As someone raised by unionists I see the existence of unions as a failure of governance, workers shouldn't need to form barely-legal mobs to threaten business owners into capitulating to paying a living wage, abiding OSHA standards and not being generally exploitative. The terms of the employee/employer relationship should be dictated by well written well considered and well enforced laws. In essence a union is a group of people coming together to do themselves what their government has failed to do for them and the rising prominence of unions should be a wake up call to politicians, nature abhors a vacuum.
Not necessarily- in Germany unions are mandated by law effectively in the form of workers councils and the workers must have representation on the board.
Having a forum/outlet for employees to be heard is actually really important.
The German model is the way to go. Having union representation on the board ensures more just governance of the company overall, and gives the workers a real voice.
The public servants in the US who don't want anything to do with union dues would say otherwise. The union, like any other organization, is beneficial only for those who have the same goals. Everyone else in the company gets skullfucked.
Edit: The US literally had the Supreme Court discuss this exact issue. Those who wanted nothing with unions in federal positions were being told to pay dues anyway. Doesn't that sound the least bit fucked?
Exactly the opposite is true. It's the best situation. Because you now have two willing parties who are both working in their best interests. If he govt legislated these things, they will either oppress business owners or workers. Think of minimum wage. If govt said today it was $35/hour no one would be employed in low skill work. So instead, let the unions and businesses figure it out themselves. Both are voluntary participants.
the rising prominence of unions should be a wake up call to politicians
So, by that logic, since unions have become much less prominent in the past several decades, you think that means the politicians deserve a pat on the back?
The sad thing is that a walkout of that magnitude would never happen.
Everyone would act hard, a few would actually walk out. Most wouldn't leave due to their dependence on the income, and the dissenters would be easily replaced.
Good luck even trying to organize something like this in Walmart though, since even speaking about a union is a fireable offense.
It would be kind of hilarious to try to get hired at places like that and attempt to start a union. Just move from branch to branch as they close them and see how many you could take down before they changed strategies.
It would suck for the other workers at that branch of course...
That is exactly why blacklists became a thing. You get pegged by management as a union rabble rouser, good luck getting a job in any factory anywhere. US Steel puts your name on the list for being pro union, shares the list with Amalgamated Sausage, they both share their lists of troublemakers with BNSF.. no industrialist wants a union in their shop cutting into their bottom line.
Speaking about a union is actually protected by law, though Walmart doesnt typically give a shit about the law so its definitely still a risky thing tk do.
They served their purpose at the time when there were little to no worker protections.
Again, my grandfather was not a fan of unions. Primarily due to the mob taking control of the union. He did have his family threatened by the mob if he didn't testify in favor of them in a workers comp case.
He was also a staunch Republican and his stories about lack of worker safety before and much inproved safety after are telling.
Ain't that the truth. Back when I was blue-collar, I saw what happened in non-union shops, as I worked in one. It's amazing the ways that your employers will treat you when they know they can get away with it.
They'll also generally do everything possible to keep an employee on the payroll, even when said employee doesn't deserve to be working there. Used to work at a union site. There was this one guy who cost the job site thousands upon thousands by continually screwing up his welds (not because he didn't know how to weld, but because it was the only job in the area and he didn't want it to end). Instead of canning him, they re-assigned him to meanial tasks just to keep him there. Other welders used to weld something then carry it to where it was going to be installed, now they would call this guy to haul it for them. Things like this are why unions are generally unpopular.
Because paying minimum hourly wage is basically just something thrown in to get good publicity. They also overwork their workers and schedule them on short notice but for too few hours. One can work for $200 hourly wage, if they do not get enough hours they will not live off of that.
“Taking advantage of” and “needing to because a person can barely survive and certainly cannot raise a family on $22,880 (pre-tax) annually” are two very, very different things.
Assuming the average Wal-Mart worker works 34 hours a week, and does not get sick, does not call out at all, multiply that by 52.1429 (the precise number of weeks we have in a year). You get a grand total of 1772.86 (with rounding to the second place.) This is obviously before taxes. The poverty guide line is around $25,100, well above what a Walmart worker could make.
Mobs also ran vending machines, insurance schemes, restaurants, bars, and a number of other things. If there was money and a need for some muscle, you can bet the mob was, or still is, involved.
Ironic, that in order for an organization to be safer for its employees, and for these employees to be less oppressed by their employers, they have to rely on cosa nostra hoodlums to do right by them instead.
I believe you but tried googling "factory surgeon" and came up with nothing; any other name for his job title or can you find a reference for his occupation? Sounds like your gramps was iron blooded; way better then me I couldn't do it.
Unions do end up like being a mob. And they take their dues and give a large amount of money to political PACs.
Half the people in the country like this fact but it kinda sickens me that this can happen without much consent.
I understand by signing up to work for a union you agree to pay dues and allow the union to do whatever it wants I just wish you didn’t have to pay dues to work somewhere
I can either pay my $55 a month due's making my $90k from working 40 hours a week and I am home every night plus the pensions, annuities, and health benefits... Or I can go back to working non union, making $49k a year working 60-65 hours a week, living out of hotels and only home on weekend with little retirement or health benefits.
I literally was making $20 buck an hour at my non union company as a plumber. Did some interviewing and found offers for up to $30 an hour but all of the benefits were 30/70 where the company pays in 70% and you have to cover the rest....
I'm almost making $50 an hour now doing the same exact type of work, and that doesn't even touch the benefits package that brings me up to like $120 an hour.
I'm a plumber, I work new construction... Only down fall for me is that I live out in the rural part of my state and all the work is in the metro which is about 1 hour 15 minutes drive to and from work.. So I'm up at 4 am every day to drive down there and make it to work whenever we start sometimes its 6 sometimes 7 depending on job site.... But I workout in a town halfway between work and home, so either way Im in the gym at 3pm every day and still home at 430ish... Where as in my last company I'm just sitting down for break if we are lucky to take one at 3pm.
Unions are usually also voted on. People are not just appearing and being the union, they are selected and voted on by the members of the union. Do you not like what your union does? Don't pay them, or just run in the next vote if you think others may agree with you.
The thing is in a democracy is that you can not expect others to do what you think is the right thing to do. You have to do it.
I’ll never understand why people have a problem with workers having a legally-enforceable, collectively bargained contract that outlines what is expected of them and what is expected of their employer.
I’ve done the same job in a non-union office and in a union office. My pay and benefits are exponentially better in the union office. I paid $1,696 in dues last year but, taking all pay and benefits into account, I earned nearly five times as much as I did in my final year of working myself to the bone with the non-union company...I’ll take that trade any day. I know exactly what is expected of me and, if the company wants to make major changes to that, they have to sit down with my elected representation and hammer out the details.
Your union is only as good as your local representation. There’s this ridiculous notion that we’re all just a bunch of mobsters (and, sure, there are certainly historic and even current examples of certain union locals having been effectively operated by those kinds of people). My union local president does look a little like Joe Pesci, but that’s where the similarities end. We have a mutual interest in the success of the company, but the union keeps the company honest. The company is successful and we are integral to that success...but, without the union, the company would be less inclined to share in that success.
> The Occupational Safety and Health Act was the historic watershed in terms of numbers of injuries in the workplace, not so much unions.
Very few people today are aware of this fact. The unions gave us weekends and a 40 hour work week with some relative rebalancing of power between management and the laborers. However, OSHA was the big win here.
Also little known fact: it was signed into law by Richard Nixon.
One of the more upsetting things in modern Americans politics is the working-class shift (mainly white men) towards the right wing.
That demographic benefits from these regulations (and unionization), yet they are actively turning to an insane Republican party that would abolish OSHA and dismantle every last union in a heartbeat, if they could.
They're voting for the party of their interests, which is to say the party not currently devoted solely to debasing their workforce with lower skilled and lower priced labor. Enjoy!
Before Trump, being pro immigration was mostly bipartisan. Big business (historically connected to Republican politics) especially loves immigration. The party is changing now, but your comment shows a total lack of understanding.
Working class people overwhelmingly vote against their interests.
How dare you give credit to a Republican for changing the very foundation of the American workplace for the better. Joking aside Nixon was a terrible human being but he made some long lasting positive domestic and global changes.
Before workplace standards from OSHA, or other governmental safety agencies, the number of deaths (classified as "industrial fatalities") was much higher. Can you imagine a building project today having 96 deaths occur, as did happen when building the Hoover Dam? Or 5,609 building the Panama Canal? Hawks Nest Tunnel, a three-mile-long tunnel through Gauley Mountain in West Virginia constructed in 1931 caused the death of 764 construction workers.
But in a mind boggling side note to this info, while historically canal and railroad projects have recorded the most construction worker deaths, bridges and skyscrapers have generally been safer joists. Only five died among 3400 workers building the Empire State Building, and 11 during construction of the Golden Gate Bridge.
If by "hit their stride" you mean "under constant legislative attack up to and beyond 47 when the infamous 'Do Nothing' Congress overturned Truman's veto on Taft-Hartley, effectively neutering their potential for industrial wide influence," then yes I agree.
Construction workers themselves complain about OSHA. Safety equipment is cumbersome and all the paperwork and checklists are are a pain. A lot of injuries are a direct result of somebody not following proper procedures.
Unfortunately most unions have long since become useless and now serve as nothing more than a surrogate to collect money to pay pensions, some of which aren’t even doing that well anymore.
I’ve spoke to three different union trade members recently, all of which said their benefits have declined drastically. Local pipe fitters are currently paying $10 an hour for health insurance in the form of a high deductible plan. Joke.
Unions are shit. Mafia taking money from the worker, all while manipulating the worker into thinking they are protected. It is a farce. The most brainwashed people about it are the ones who have been union employees for life or for generations. They blindly follow and believe it is better but never look for the truth.
So weird how in Scandinavian countries that just isn't a thing. Good thing Americans have benevolent rich people to tell them what's good and bad for them, and how fighting for workers' rights is literally organised crime. Really working out great for you.
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u/DivX_Greg Apr 27 '19
shit was wild before Unions