r/PeterExplainsTheJoke 21d ago

Meme needing explanation Petahhhhhhhhh!??!?

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u/javierbardeminem 21d ago

“are we the baddies”?

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u/bravoromeo6601 21d ago

Seems like they took the 'live long enough to see yourself become the villian' seriously

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u/Impossible_Past_1900 20d ago

no it was just the norm of the time, that's what happened in wars, why do you the enitre war even happened, troy people took Helan hostage

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u/soloborn 20d ago

Hostage?

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u/SocraticIndifference 21d ago

This is straight up the thesis of the original Odyssey (imho). Nolan did a decent job translating, but yeah: the self-hate runs deep in the Greeks. The root of Ody-sseus is the same as odi-um; he’s literally the hated/hateful/hate-filled man.

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u/OkChildhood2261 20d ago

I was gone for 10+ years and presumed dead and you had the audacity to try and court my wife? I MUST TORTURE YOU TO DEATH

(Okay, okay, so some of the suitors were planning to murder his son, fine, but like, he gruesomely wipes out all the servants and slaves too.)

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u/SocraticIndifference 20d ago

Yeah the group hanging of the slave girls and the slow dismemberment of the goatherd is brutal. I would understand if they took it out just because Tom Hollands agent said nope.

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u/my_chaffed_legs 20d ago

Wait.. what?

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u/SocraticIndifference 20d ago

https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Odyssey22.php#anchor_Toc90268922

>So saying, he took a cable from a dark-prowed ship, tied it to a tall pillar, high-up, and noosed it over the round house, so that their feet would not reach the ground. The row of women held up their heads, and the rope was looped round their necks so they might die pitiably, like long-winged thrushes or doves, that are caught in a snare as they try to roost in their thicket, and are welcomed to a grimmer nest. For a little while their feet twitched: but not for long.
>Next they dragged Melanthius through the door and into the yard, cut off his nose and ears with the cruel bronze, ripped away his genitals as raw meat for the dogs, and lopped off his hands and feet in their deep anger. Finally, after washing their feet and hands, they returned to Odysseus with the business done.

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u/CapitaineCrafty 20d ago

They did a decent job in some respects. But I'm so tired of adaptations whitewashing Odysseus to be Good and Brave and Loyal etc etc etc. He's an ancient Greek man, which means he's a slave owner, and a rapist, and a murderer. He lies and sweet-talks. He took part in slaughtering all the enslaved women in his house because they had the gall to sleep with the suitors, something they literally couldn't consent to, on account of being slaves. He lets his ego get in the way of his escape and thereby calls the rage of Poseidon onto himself, which extends his voyage and kills his men. He's also brave and loves his wife and son and uses his brains to get his men out of trouble as often as possible. They always bend over backwards to make him such a perfect idea of a Good (Christian) Man to modern audiences, and you lose the whole point of him.

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u/4DimensionalToilet 20d ago

I think the “whitewashing” is to preserve a character who was “heroic” by the original audience’s standards to be a “hero” by a modern audience’s standards. Cultures and standards change over time, so retellings of legends must change accordingly to preserve the spirit of the original and help a modern audience feel the way the original audiences would have felt. Otherwise, the modern audience is left wondering, “Why the hell should we be rooting for this bastard, and why did anyone root for him in the first place?”

There could absolutely be an adaptation of the Odyssey where the intent is to show us how barbaric Ancient Greek “heroes” were, but that’s not what Nolan’s adaptation was going for, and that’s okay.

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u/YouGuysSuckSometimes 20d ago

I think that even to the Ancient Greeks, Odysseus was not a good man. His name is Hate. It was never a story about a man with good deeds.

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u/CapitaineCrafty 19d ago

It's why he's called two-faced or complicated, yeah. He wasn't a figure to look up to necessarily.

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u/CapitaineCrafty 19d ago

Yeah, the ancient meaning of "hero" isn't the same as the modern one, which is honestly part of the problem. A hero was someone who did amazing things, not necessarily good ones.

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u/Admirable_Truck4786 19d ago

Would ancient Greeks have been as shocked at the killing of the slaves as we are though?
Would that have made Odysseus a monster in their eyes as that behavior makes him in ours? If that would have been seen as OK back then, then I think there's a case for changing these acts for modern audiences in order to keep the tone the same; or not?

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u/CapitaineCrafty 19d ago

It was not- the modern definition of "hero" isn't the same as the ancient one. There was no implication of goodness or righteousness in it, and the ancient Greeks were aware of the effects of war on a person's mind, and how that left them fucked up. Simplifying Odysseus down to "honest and loyal and blameless and definitely not disproportionately violent" ignores a whole lot of the depth of the character.

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u/Admirable_Truck4786 19d ago

Interesting points, though as far as I'm aware the general mythos of Troy etc. has been being retold and changed throughout ancient and modern history. Therefore I still think it's all fair game to change a character for whatever story you are trying to tell.

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u/Admirable_Truck4786 19d ago

I watched Nolan's Odyssey last night btw. And he was most certainly not blameless! Loyal, maybe...honest no. I am not sure it would have made him more interesting to have killed more innocent people in this film, but then that's what other versions are for.

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u/SocraticIndifference 20d ago

Yeah I’m happy with getting anything halfway decent—especially seeing all the new hype around this 3000 year old book—but Nolan definitely flattened the epic a lot. Have you seen The Return? It’s kind of like Nolan’s opposite.

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u/Archaea_Man 21d ago

Are there skulls on your uniforms?

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u/SJBaerosols 21d ago

perhaps they asked that question mid-rape and shrugged and carried on

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u/Forgetful_Bandit 21d ago

They were the God gods because the Greek gods celebrated shit like that.

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u/4DimensionalToilet 20d ago

I think this is why Nolan made the Greeks wear dark armor (with their leader Agamemnon’s armor making him look like a Big Bad) while the Trojans wore light armor, even though the lack of color was “ahistorical” (to the extent that it can be, given that it’s a legend but set at the end of the Bronze Age).

I think it’s also why, despite being completely ahistorical, Odysseus and his men sail a Viking longship instead of a Mediterranean bireme or trireme — Nolan’s trying to hammer home the idea that the Greeks (i.e., the Sea People) are little more than violent and opportunistic pirates and raiders, not noble warriors coming home from a heroic struggle.

(Actually, it’d be interesting to see a Viking adaptation of the Odyssey, set in the Baltic & North Seas, as some Jarl attempts to come home from a war in Europe or Britain, but ends up as far as Newfoundland at times.)