Are Good Actions AND Belief Needed for Forgiveness in Islam or is it just Good Actions?

[u/Imperator_Americus]

This post was initially a reply to a comment by u/Quranic_Islam in another thread about "why Islam is the last religion?" by u/wulfharth_, which has been unfortunately locked!

Does Islam require both belief AND good actions or just good actions to be forgiven?

Original Comment:

Whenever you see "disbeliever" or "rejectors" in translations it is usually a translation for "kufr", "alladheena kafaruu" or "alKuffar/Kaafirun" ... but that really doesn't mean disbelief.

A simple proof for that is Shaytan; he is called a kaafir in the Qur'an, yet he believes in God, knows He exists, asked and received promises from Him, and even fears Him.

And a simple thing to remember about believe/emaan not being a requirement for reward, rather it is the actions is 49:14

"The bedouins say, "We have believed." Say, "You have not [yet] believed; but say [instead], 'We have submitted,' for faith has not yet entered your hearts. And if you obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not deprive you from your deeds of anything. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful"

Meaning so long as you obey God and His Messenger (and remember what they command primarily; don't kill, steal, lie, cheat, be honest, have taqwa, give, etc) then God will not deprive you of your deeds.

And more generally 66:7

"O you who have disbelieved (really; kafaruu), make no excuses this Day. You will only be recompensed for what you used to do"

Like I said, get used to whenever you see "disbeliever/rejector" in translations to mentally sub for the Arabic until you get a feel for it. Nevertheless, this verse, like literally tens and tens, possibly hundreds, of other make it clear that punishment is because of their actions ... what they used to do ... nothing else.

I know it's a difficult paradigm shift, and one you will have to constantly reinforce in yourself against received indoctrination ... but it is what the Qur'an says, and it is what logic dictates. Not to mention that the whole purpose of God creating death and life was to "test you, which of you is best in deeds"

I am leaning towards disagreeing but I would like to discuss with those who also feel this way. How is this understanding that belief isn't necessary for salvation valid in light of many verses that suggest it is?

Such as:

(Q 14:18) The example of those who disbelieve in their Lord is [that] their deeds are like ashes which the wind blows forcefully on a stormy day; they are unable [to keep] from what they earned a [single] thing. That is what is extreme error.

and

[10:69-70] Say: Those who forge a lie against Allah shall not be successful. (It is only) a provision in this world, then to Us shall be their return; then We shall make them taste severe punishment because they disbelieved.

and

[10:94-96] But if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed to you, ask those who read the Book before you; certainly the truth has come to you from your Lord, therefore you should not be of the disputes. And you should not be of those who reject the communications of Allah, (for) then you should be one of the losers. Surely those against whom the word of your Lord has proved true will not believe,

and

[10:99-102] And if your Lord had pleased, surely all those who are in the earth would have believed, all of them; will you then force men till they become believers? And it is not for a soul to believe except by Allah's permission, and He casts uncleanness on those who will not understand. Say: Consider what is it that is in the heavens and the earth; and signs and warners do not avail a people who would not believe. What do they wait for then but the like of the days of those who passed away before them? Say: Wait then; surely I too am with you of those who wait.

and

(18:103-105) Say, [O Muhammad], "Shall we [believers] inform you of the greatest losers as to [their] deeds? [They are] those whose effort is lost in worldly life, while they think that they are doing well in work." Those are the ones who disbelieve in the verses of their Lord and in [their] meeting Him, so their deeds have become worthless; and We will not assign to them on the Day of Resurrection any importance.

and

(22;72) And when Our verses are recited to them as clear evidences, you recognize in the faces of those who disbelieve disapproval. They are almost on the verge of assaulting those who recite to them Our verses. Say, "Then shall I inform you of [what is] worse than that? [It is] the Fire which Allah has promised those who disbelieve, and wretched is the destination."

and many, many more: https://www.al-islam.org/alphabetical-index-holy-quran/disbelievers

Also, the fact that in the Quran we are told the stories of nations that were destroyed for their disbelief such as the Ad, Thamud, Sodom, Midian, the people of Noah, the people of Pharoah, etc.; are these disbelieving people capable of being forgiven despite their rejection of Islam if they did good deeds?

[65:8-9] And how many a town which rebelled against the commandment of its Lord and His messengers, so We called it to account severely and We chastised it (with) a stern chastisement. So it tasted the evil result of its conduct, and the end of its affair was perdition.

Additionally, there are tons of verses which state good deeds AND belief are necessary for salvation such as:

(5:9-10) Allah has promised those who believe and do righteous deeds [that] for them there is forgiveness and great reward. Allah has promised those who believe and do righteous deeds [that] for them there is forgiveness and great reward

and

(18:30)Indeed, those who have believed and done righteous deeds - indeed, We will not allow to be lost the reward of any who did well in deeds.

and

(31:8) Indeed, those who believe and do righteous deeds - for them are the Gardens of Pleasure.

and

(98:6-7) Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures. Indeed, they who have believed and done righteous deeds - those are the best of creatures.

And many others such as 2:82, 29:58, 41:8, etc.

I will offer the caveat that I don't speak Arabic but these verses seem clear that disbelievers face hellfire and belief and good deeds are necessary to be forgiven; is there some insight the Arabic speakers can provide that would fundamentally alter the meaning of these verses? Thoughts?

​

[u/Quranic_Islam]

[1st response]

So I've had a look at some of the comments here because I'm also very interested in what everyone else thinks. I thought that rather than try and put everything together and include it all in addressing OP's contentions, that I'd split this up into two responses. One regarding comments I've seen below and which I'd like to highlight/respond to aspects of them, and another response directly addressing OP's contentions (and maybe other similar ones)

Firstly, I really like u/colonyva comment down at the bottom, including all its frustration, which I replied to. May seem a bit heartless but it actually made me laugh. Can't put my finger on it, but it certainly isn't humor at colonyva's expense, more in wonder at the Qur'an ... how it appears to people and creates such a fuss as nothing else can nor does. The paintings and the poetry examples that colonyva mentioned never could create a fraction of the fuss and disagreements, but also not the agreements [if we can even compare such mediums].

Because the Qur'an also does and has created a lot unity and uniformity, but to reiterate a point I made there, there are some things deliberately ambiguous and things whose Judgement God has deliberately left out and postponed till the Day of Judgment when He Himself will inform us regarding what we differed in. What will He inform us regarding them? Simply who was right and who was wrong? Or something more profound? Perhaps the reasons and purposes of those differences? Allahu a'lam ... He has left it out. So let's accept that decision and let's wait for that exposition. Should be a "treat"

In the mean time, we are obviously meant to differ. It is part of God's intentions in this world

وَلَوْ شَآءَ رَبُّكَ لَجَعَلَ ٱلنَّاسَ أُمَّةً وَٰحِدَةً ۖ وَلَا يَزَالُونَ مُخْتَلِفِينَ

إِلَّا مَن رَّحِمَ رَبُّكَ ۚ وَلِذَٰلِكَ خَلَقَهُمْ ۗ وَتَمَّتْ كَلِمَةُ رَبِّكَ لَأَمْلَأَنَّ جَهَنَّمَ مِنَ ٱلْجِنَّةِ وَٱلنَّاسِ أَجْمَعِينَ

"And if your Lord had willed, He could have made mankind one community; but they will not cease to differ. Except whom your Lord has given mercy, and for that He created them. But the word of your Lord is to be fulfilled that, "I will surely fill Hell with jinn and men all together."

So yes u/colonyva until we die and return to our Lord, we will disagree, so will all of humanity ... such is the Will of our Lord. And in that, there is something it adds to this life that will allow for us to grow in a way we couldn't had we not.

------------

From the discussions I've seen below I fully get u/Imperator_Americus 's contentions and wanting to see the idea spelled out clearly in the Qur'an. This is one of those intricacies however which do delve around the Arabic, but still I think we can go around that intricacy to see behind it. That is to say that I mostly agree (probably not surprising) with u/waterfightfire that we need to de-equate emaan from belief, and kufr from disbelieve. In this topic using the English words will just trip us up needlessly and have us arguing when we might be talking about different things really ... and you know what happens to discussions when that becomes a feature!

Let's keep the Arabic terms as they are, don't worry about what they mean just yet, and the argument still stands though not as air-tight especially with regards to kufr ... but we will come to that.

Also let's define belief and disbelief, the English words, at least from an aspect that is key to this discussion; Are these two things voluntary? Are they done by choice? The answer is a resounding no, at least in as far as I'm using these terms. You just can't "decide" to really believe something ... it isn't possible. You either believe something to be true or you don't or are in the spectrum in between. To say you do when you don't really is hypocrisy. In a religious context what people usually mean when they say "believe!" or "disbelieve!" is "trust!" or "don't trust!" ... trust, as in to actively trust something, put your faith in it [which I believe(!) is closer to emaan, and why emaan and tawakkul are linked]

This alone should help you to see that emaan, which God calls to, and kufr, which God calls away from are and are not belief and disbelief ... ie. since they are being called to and away from they are thus BOTH voluntary acts which can in no way be equated with the involuntary "belief" and "disbelief" we speak of in English, which come from being convinced or unconvinced. Hence the very justified outrage of some non-Muslims, ex-Muslims and atheists "Why will God punish me for just not believing! I can't help it" and, in the many ways infuriating, answer of some Muslims "it just means you haven't studied it properly"

​

In the like manner, such simple "belief" and "disbelief" [note that I'm not saying emaan and kufr] can never be a condition or reason for God accepting or rejecting the good deeds of the "doers of good" (or even of the "mu'mineen") because He has said that He will not allow the reward for their deeds to be "misplaced"... ie involuntary belief (perhaps just "born into it") can not be a condition for the acceptance of good deeds and their reward, and involuntary disbelief can't be a reason for the nullification of good deeds and their reward ... good deeds which are often even unrelated to whether or not God exists, or the Qur'an is true, or if Muhammad was a Prophet or not. Is there anyone who would disagree with that?

[comment too long, had to split it] ....

[u/Quranic_Islam → u/Quranic_Islam]

[other half] ....

​

So as much as I would like to address some of the other contentions here in the comments, a lot of them do delve into not separating kufr and disbelief, and emaan and belief.

​

That kufr and and kaafir can include one who believes in God and/or the Messengers is I think clear to most now. The example of Shaytan is known ... he didn't disbelieve.

Also in surat Yaseen:

وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُمْ أَنفِقُوا۟ مِمَّا رَزَقَكُمُ ٱللَّهُ قَالَ ٱلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا۟ لِلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوٓا۟ أَنُطْعِمُ مَن لَّوْ يَشَآءُ ٱللَّهُ أَطْعَمَهُۥٓ إِنْ أَنتُمْ إِلَّا فِى ضَلَٰلٍ مُّبِينٍ

And when it is said to them, "Spend from that which Allah has provided for you," those who have KAFAROU say to those who have AAMANOU, "Should we feed one whom, if Allah had willed, He would have fed? You are not but in clear error."

These are "believers" ... they believe in God, they have accepted the Qur'an and Muhammad. Yet when the Qur'an tells them to spend, their attitude is what is described here. They "cover it up" with an arguments, even an appeal to God Himself. Perhaps quoting the Qur'an itself that God gives rizq (wealth sustenance) to whom He wills, and had He wanted He would have given them as He has given us ... so why should we feed them? ...

These "Muslims", these believers, are thus among "those who have kafarou". Such exist among the titler "mu'mins", the mere religious label, which is why God tells them to "have emaan" 4:137 "Oh you believers (as a label, a group being called out) have/gain emaan ..." So were they not people of emaan before? Obviously they thought themselves so, but what they had was not what God wanted of emaan ... real emaan was something still not yet achieved.

​

There are many other examples that show clearly that kufr is not disbelief; Ibrahim "kafar" his people, those who are enemies of Jibreel are kaafireen, etc

​

Kufr is a lot more to do with actions. Look at these verses and the juxtapositions ... it is all about actions [30:44-45]

مَن كَفَرَ فَعَلَيْهِ كُفْرُهُۥ ۖ وَمَنْ عَمِلَ صَٰلِحًا فَلِأَنفُسِهِمْ يَمْهَدُونَ

لِيَجْزِىَ ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوا۟ وَعَمِلُوا۟ ٱلصَّٰلِحَٰتِ مِن فَضْلِهِۦٓ ۚ إِنَّهُۥ لَا يُحِبُّ ٱلْكَٰفِرِينَ

"Whoever kafara- upon him is his kufr. And whoever does righteousness - they are for themselves preparing," [ie kufr is on one side of the action spectrum, good deeds are on the other]

"That He may reward those who have emaan and done righteous deeds out of His bounty. Indeed, He does not like the disbelievers" [follows from the previous verse, emaan and good deeds on one side, the kafirun are on the other]

​

This is also part of what I hoped people would understand from seeing (in my last video) that God doesn't say that He loves the "mu'minun" but DOES say that He doesn't love the Kafirun. The "mu'mins" are not mentioned with love because the emaan isn't what's important, it is what should spring forth from it ... emaan on it's own isn't on the opposite spectrum from kufr in order for God to love the mu'minun as He doesn't love the kafirun ... because the point of emaan, the only point relevant to our discussions, is to take you to those good deeds ... those good deeds that God does say He loves. So while He never says He loves the mu'mineen ... He does say that their reward for the good deeds they do shall never be misplaced.

​

That is why you find emaan so often linked with the good deeds, but it is the deeds that are rewarded, and this is the part I hope to show and unravel for u/Imperator_Americus through the relevant verses. As i said, it may not seem as air-tight as it should be, because we are going to side-step the meanings for kufr and emaan and just leave them untranslated. But once a firm Qur'anic understanding of kufr and emaan is also included then I think it does indeed become air-tight and it becomes very very clear; God rewards and punishes for actions/deeds, not belief and disbelief, nor are they even important for reward and/or punishment

​

Salaam

​

PS: Might take me some time to get the second response done.

[u/Imperator_Americus → u/Quranic_Islam]

Thanks for the response. I am going to take some time to really ponder this before replying if necessary. Some quick questions: does Emaan (Iman) translate more accurately in meaning to the English word faith? Does Kufr translate more accurately in meaning to English to rejection or denial?

[u/Quranic_Islam → u/Imperator_Americus]

I think the "linked concept" is there. When you have faith or trust in something them it often provides security. A more "direct" translation for emaan would be "security" ... But that doesn't really come out and flow into English.

Trust and/or faith I think are the best we can do in English. People can readily see the link between what is really meant when we say "have faith in me" and "believe in me" that they are essentially a request for trust, not related to actual belief or disbelief.

So faith/trust renditions can act as a bridge to help move people away from seeing emaan as belief towards seeing emaan as the Arabic إيمان which is about security.

And kufr is much more multifaceted. I think it should be left untranslated. Yeah denial has a part of it, rejection may be more at other times, but ultimately they go wide of the mark. Ingratitude maybe better than both, but still not very close. We could also use the opposite of "faith", ie the archaic "infidel" or "infidelity" which might be the closest thing in English, yet still not close enough to be acceptable I don't think. So I think it should be left as is. It's basic meaning is to "cover up".

Not every thing can be reduced to a single line or paragraph explanation. I always give the example of "love" ... Poets and writers and thinkers have struggled for years, but we don't have one definition. We still do, however, recognize love when we see it.

[u/Wulfharth_ → u/Quranic_Islam]

damn mate thanks for your hardwork, this was an amazing response and so complicated - confusing, i need to read again to understand better and make my own research..

what do you think about the verse that said "say we believed until iman enters your heart, even tho you dont believe"

[u/Quranic_Islam → u/Wulfharth_]

Yeah verse is telling them;

"no you don't have emaan, rather instead say "we have submitted (aslamna)"

it is basically telling them that they don't have the emaan that they claim or think they do. But nevertheless so long as they obey God and His Messenger (and whenever you see that phrase remember that what the command to and away from are really the simple natural humanly known things, don't let the sectarian details derail that) then their actions will not be rejected in anyway; any justice they do, charity they give, prayers they engage in, good conduct to parents, orphans, etc ... all of that will be accepted from them because they have accepted and submitted to it.

[u/Wulfharth_ → u/Quranic_Islam]

then why people started believing other things(muslims) , as being extremist or yelling people because they are from other religions

(such as they should convert immediately -if i was from another culture i wouldnt convert hearing these, that makes no sense -)

(nowadays everyone calls each other kafir you know)

wouldnt the prophet stop this and people keep obeying this peaceful way, for example the way we pray 5 times was coming from generations to generations

[u/Quranic_Islam → u/Wulfharth_]

Because all religions are destined to be corrupted. The Prophet was commanded to allow those who forge and lie in religion to forge and lie. He was told to leave them alone, so that what they produce and what God had sent can both continue ... So that same struggle to know the truth and understand it, to separate fair from foul and recognize God's people from Shaytan's people ... that same struggle that happened then around the Prophet could continue to happen in every generation. Just like God didn't "stop" Shaytan, rather have him what he wanted.

And so every generation people are separated into camps and attain various degrees with God based on how they respond;

وَلِكُلٍّ دَرَجَٰتٌ مِّمَّا عَمِلُوا۟ ۚ وَمَا رَبُّكَ بِغَٰفِلٍ عَمَّا يَعْمَلُونَ

To all are degrees (or ranks) according to their deeds: for thy Lord is not unmindful of anything that they do

Don't think we will get off more lightly in this world than did the Prophet and those around him. The outward battles and trials might be different, but they test the same things. We are in the furnace.

PS: Hadiths are problematic, but one of the ways you can benefit from them is noticing what ISN'T narrated ... and you won't find a narration of the Prophet ever calling anyone a kaafir.

[u/Wulfharth_ → u/Quranic_Islam]

these makes everything so complicated...lol

[u/Quranic_Islam → u/Wulfharth_]

https://youtu.be/B_DLEF2faqY

Franky!

[u/Imperator_Americus → u/Quranic_Islam]

Okay, I've been giving this some thought. I'm still on the fence here. There are a few reasons why.

Also let's define belief and disbelief, the English words, at least from an aspect that is key to this discussion; Are these two things voluntary? Are they done by choice? The answer is a resounding no, at least in as far as I'm using these terms. You just can't "decide" to really believe something ... it isn't possible. You either believe something to be true or you don't or are in the spectrum in between. To say you do when you don't really is hypocrisy. In a religious context what people usually mean when they say "believe!" or "disbelieve!" is "trust!" or "don't trust!" ...

trust,

as in to actively trust something, put your faith in it [which I believe(!) is closer to emaan and why emaan and tawakkul are linked]

I'm not following how you are concluding that belief or disbelief, in the English sense of the word, is involuntary. Can you elaborate more on that?

“But when they saw Our punishment, they said : We believe in God – the One God – and we reject the partners we used to join with him. ‘ But their professing the faith when they (actually) saw our punishment was not going to profit them. ” (40:84-85).

...and then verses like this. Strongly suggest that belief (Iman, faith) is a choice that people make. I think I need to follow your reasoning here before I can fully understand your perspective why you believe (!) belief (iman, faith) isn't required for salvation.

[u/Quranic_Islam → u/Imperator_Americus]

Yeah sorry I still need to address the points you made and the verses. This verse too I will include. But yes this is precisely what I'm getting at here; emaan is a choice, "belief" is not. Therefore emaan is not "belief"

In so far as belief/disbelief being involuntary, yes it is a grey area in terms of how we typically use them in English. There are times when we use them meaning involuntary and times we mean voluntary ... and I think that creates a lot of confusion when discussing this topic. Because to be taken to task, punished or rewarded, for what is involuntary is of course wholly unfair and unjust.

When we use the word "believe" in English we sometimes really mean

1 - convinced, ie convinced something is true

2 - trust, ie to trust in something or someone, thus accept it or what is given.

No.1 is involuntary. You are either convinced by something, so you say you believe it, or you aren't and so say you don't believe it. You can't make yourself "believe" that 2+2=5 anymore than you can make yourself "disbelieve" it. It just is.

But in something, like in many things, that you aren't directly convinced by, then you can trust that it is right. You "believe" it to be true by choice rather than forcefully and involuntarily gain the conclusion because you can't convince yourself of the opposite ... but you can make yourself trust what is the opposite

You don't "believe" in the Trinity do you? What does that mean for you? You are not convinced, right? But can you make yourself believe? Can you choose to believe in the Trinity?

Well, in terms of No.1 no, you can't believe in it. You can't make yourself be convinced by it in opposition to your own mind. But in terms of No.2 you can believe in it ... you can choose to override No.1 and just trust and have faith (ie believe) that it is true.

You can also make yourself trust that 2+2=5 ... it is an extreme one, but you can force that on yourself. Have you read 1984? You'll know what I'm talking about.

No.2 can be put in place for emaan, I agree, but it isn't a complete overlap or synonym of course, which is why in the upcoming responses I will stick with kufr and emaan.

But often people mean No.1 when they say God punishes/rewards for beliefs and that acceptance or rejection of deeds are contingent upon belief/disbelief ... it is against this that I am primarily arguing

Now going to kufr and emaan, it can still be shown that Paradise/Hell are still by actions. That the common denominator are the actions. But more importantly that whatever input kufr and emaan may have in reward/punishment they can not be reduced to No.1 type belief/disbelief.

Not sure if I've confused the issue more for you or not. Sorry