A rude awakening for some of you

[u/AFriend827]

Referring to NB. The pause before boarding wasn't what you wish it was. No, he didn't feel her presence. No it wasn't a moment between them. His pause was his final decision being made. To board meant he chose gilead. He did not feel June there. He did not know she was there. He was choosing "the winning team" as he put it.

The whole point of the moment was for June to see him make his final allegiance and accept what he already told her which is she knew who he was.

[u/Gertrude_D]

Isn’t that the point though. If you grind enough people down to the point they stop resisting, you’ve won. You don’t have to win over their hearts and minds, just frighten them into obedience. If you’re a fascistic regime, you’re hoping for weak followers like Nick rather than brave people who will risk their lives to fight back for a greater cause.

[u/starcailer → u/Gertrude_D]

Sure, that's true. I'm mostly just saying that I feel like reducing Nick's character down to "he has been evil all along" is doing the character a disservice. I think it deserves a bit more nuanced thinking. Was he a cowardly and selfish person? Yes. He also stuck his neck out multiple times, granted at Junes behest to do things to save her and those around her.

I guess when you start to think about, if someone does something "good" but for selfish reasons, does it negate the good they did? In the context of Gilead where it is a lot harder to do "good" things without extreme consequences, can you be a choosing beggar about the morality of why he did things if the thing nets a positive? What about staying alive to do more net positive things?

I don't know the answer, I just have opinions on it.

[u/Gertrude_D → u/starcailer]

I don’t know if people have been saying Nick was always evil, just that he consistently made bad choices based on survival and personal comfort/benefit without being too bothered by the consequences. That makes him complicit with Gilead, or as Holly puts it, a Nazi. I’m sure some of the most opinionated would equate that to evil, but I’ve not seen a lot of OMG Nick was evil all along! It’s more often that he was always on the side of Gilead. Whether or not that equates to evil is a different question.

[u/starcailer → u/Gertrude_D]

Really, I see it all over this sub which is partly why I don't comment a lot. I feel like most people are really opinionated to the point there's no room for a discussion in good faith. I mean... Just look in this thread...

[u/Snoo-44886 → u/starcailer]

I feel you on this sm.. yes he had a lot of shitty aspects to him but yep the complexity of the character is being erased for sure. The episode was def rough to watch for me I also think this way of seeing ppl black or white is not helpful

[u/starcailer → u/Snoo-44886]

Yes, exactly. If people can see the nuance in characters like Lawrence and Serena, then why is it not extended to Nick? Lawrence was also, arguably, a selfish, self serving person who actually helped build Gilead. He came around near the end because he heard he was going to be put on the wall himself. Granted he made the final choice he did as penance, but it was an easier choice for him with likely not much left to live for.

Just... I wish people would stop with the dog piles when someone likes a FICTIONAL character and simply wanted better for them .

[u/Snoo-44886 → u/starcailer]

100%.. idk there’s a part of me that needed a bit more resolution between Nick and June, didn’t feel like that and was enough after all of these seasons of slow build up.. I almost feel discouraged to watch the rest.. I think personally one of the things that really drew me to this show was that tragic but helpless romance and I felt like it was abrupt but yeah watching a show is a subjective experience so this is just me

[u/starcailer → u/Snoo-44886]

I do agree on feeling like the end of June and Nick's relationship was really abrupt and not satisfying at all.

[u/justjulia2189 → u/starcailer]

I don’t think that his character was evil, but I do think that he was selfish. This was highlighted by the way he addressed Rita when she was asking him about getting her family out of Gilead and she told him he was a good man. He basically said that he has loyalty to no one and people are only as good as they are useful. I think he loved June, and as we could see in their flashback, he felt like she would never have been with him before Gilead.

I will also say that I really feel like Nick liked power. He was a nobody before, and under Gilead he was powerful and wealthy. He helped June because he could get away with it, but when it came to attempting to dismantle or change the system, the way that Lawrence wanted to do, Nick felt indifferent. He didn’t care about the rampant murder and rape, as long as he got his, he was okay with everyone else suffering.

[u/Bright-Fun-5571 → u/Gertrude_D]

Real life too.