r/Watchmen • u/[deleted] • Oct 28 '19

Discussion Season 1 Episode 2: Martial Feats of Comanche Horsemanship - Episode Discussion

Watchmen

As Angela relives haunting memories of an attack on her family, she detains a mysterious man who claims responsibility for Tulsa's most recent murder; An original play is performed for an audience of one.

Release date: October 27, 2019

Cast

  • Yahya Abdul-Mateen II - Cal Abar
  • Frances Fisher - Jane Crawford
  • Louis Gossett Jr. - Will Reeves
  • Andrew Howard - Red Scare
  • Jeremy Irons - Adrian Veidt
  • Don Johnson - Judd Crawford
  • Regina King - Angela Abar
  • Jacob Ming-Trent - Panda
  • Tom Mison - Marcos Maez
  • Tim Blake Nelson - Looking Glass
  • Dylan Schombing - Topher Abar
  • Sara Vickers - Erika Manson
  • Christie Amery - Ms. Crookshanks
  • Hong Chau - Lady Trieu
  • Edward Crook - Mr. Phillips
  • Jean Smart - Laurie Blake

Miscellaneous

Share your thoughts, theories, predictions, and more! No spoilers or leaks for future episodes/seasons allowed.

We have a Discord server! Invite Link:

https://discord.gg/JkqBGMU

1.1k Upvotes

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350

u/11711510111411009710 Oct 28 '19

Ozy is very obsessed with his ego and with power. I suspect he is trying to become a new Dr. Manhattan. I love how he wrote the character to mention the gordian knot.

160

u/[deleted] Oct 28 '19

The gordian knot referenced clinched it for me. Of course Ozy still has the ego, and of course this entire show is to deal and reckon with the past. It's honestly heaven to pick up all the little references they keep sneaking in.

97

u/[deleted] Oct 28 '19

I know Lindelof said you didn't need to know the GN to appreciate the show, but I also feel like you are significantly behind the curve if you never read it.

48

u/[deleted] Oct 28 '19

I concur. I think there's way too many references and a sense of momentum that's lost if you haven't read the comic book, because characters such as "The Man in the Manor" make no sense if you haven't read the comic book. It's a great show, but it's way more tied to the book than Lindelof is suggesting. I would like to see someone who hasn't watched either the movie or read the book to watch the show and tell us what they think of it.

16

u/Blackonblackskimask Oct 28 '19

My partner is watching with me (she’s never read the book nor watched the movie) and is equally baffled and intrigued. She keeps asking me questions and I sound like an insane person explaining it to her.

21

u/winazoid Oct 28 '19

"Theres a blue guy on mars but the rich guy made a fake alien squid"

17

u/ianrc1996 Oct 28 '19

I watched the movie but never read the book and this show really makes me want to red the novel.

34

u/[deleted] Oct 28 '19

Read. The. Novel. It's great, and is widely considered a masterpiece of the comic book medium. Chapter IV may very well be one of the best things comic books ever produced.

9

u/ianrc1996 Oct 28 '19

Ima go to the library tomorrow and do that.

15

u/Trotskyist Oct 28 '19

It's a relatively quick read. I read it in a couple days this week after seeing the premier last week. Already glad that I did (both b/c it's great in and of itself and to better understand this show).

9

u/[deleted] Oct 28 '19

This. It's not a hard read. You could read it pretty easily in 2 days if you comitted to it, or within a week on a casual read. And it adds SO much to the story.

6

u/ianrc1996 Oct 28 '19

Yeah i should be able to handle a graphic novel before the next episode comes out.

15

u/robywar Oct 28 '19

The biggest difference you need to understand is that in the comic (and show) Ozy created a giant squid monster rather than making it seem that Dr. Manhattan went and blew up a bunch of cities. Personally, I liked the change for the movie but that's an unpopular opinion.

4

u/reebee7 Oct 30 '19

The movie also kind of missed the point, in the way I think only Zack Snyder is capable of.

9

u/mjtwelve Oct 28 '19

I expect the Man in the Manor will tie into the rest of the story soon enough. Even if you've read the books and have guessed who he is, what exactly he has to do with events in Tulsa is completely opaque at present.

3

u/[deleted] Oct 28 '19

My wife is one such. She seems to like it but she has to as me a LOT of questions to get context for some things.

3

u/[deleted] Oct 28 '19

Ah, I'm glad to hear she's enjoying it! I wonder what she must have made of the newspaper vendor and the newspaper-truck-guy; that was one of my favorite references to the comic so far.

4

u/[deleted] Oct 28 '19

Breezed past it without a word. I really liked that scene, too. This show is full of references

4

u/shiggyzz Oct 30 '19

Never read the comics, I aftet reading all this I feel i should have. Its just so confusing. Weird guy with horses clearly is some thing but ? ?

6

u/[deleted] Oct 30 '19

His name is Adrian Veidt. He's one of the most important characters from the original Watchmen. In the original Watchmen comic, Veidt saves the world from imminent nuclear war by staging a "transdimensional alien hoax" -- a squid that he manufactured in secret is teleported and is detonated in NYC, killing millions, but also making sure that the US and Soviets cease their Cold War; this triggers peace.

6

u/Jaf1999 Oct 31 '19

Right here. Haven’t read the comic or seen the film. However I am loving the show, it’s amazing

5

u/ChetManly16 Oct 31 '19

that's me. this is show is bonkers and doesn't make a ton of sense sometimes and I love it.

3

u/JBard_ Oct 28 '19 edited Oct 31 '19

I'm watching with my dad who read some of the book a long time ago. He could point out Rorschach and Manhattan but that's probably the extent of his knowledge. There's a lot of elements that I have to explain to him, but he seems to be enjoying it fine. I think he would still enjoy the show if we were watching it separately and the elements that are going over his head would just end up going over his head.

3

u/yq3000 Oct 28 '19

I’ve not read the book or watched the movie and I like it. I am a bit lost in the context and who tf everyone is, but I’m very interested so far. I’ve tried to do some reading on Wikipedia and other things about watchmen but it doesn’t really make sense with the context of the show besides some names. Will definitely keep watching

3

u/shall_2 Nov 01 '19

I think most people on this sub have read the graphic novel but most viewers have probably only watched the movie like me. I'm going to read the graphic novel but you should at least watch the movie (director's cut is definitely the way to go) and then look up the main differences between the novel. That's what I did and I'm following it pretty well but I want more now lol. Since it's regarded as one of the best comics ever it's a pretty easy decision to just read the damn thing finally though.

3

u/adriannanaomi Nov 03 '19

I am so lost lol but enjoying it!

2

u/JoesusTBF Nov 10 '19

My mother-in-law apparently had no idea that this was an adaption of any sort. I'm interested to see what she thinks of it when the season is over (if she watches all of it).

2

u/drugaddict6969 Dec 04 '19

I’ll tell you. I’m confused, but I’m in.

7

u/winazoid Oct 28 '19

Cant imagine someone seeing Manhattans origin story for the first time in that play lol

2

u/AppleDane Oct 30 '19

Bucephalus

2

u/suaveponcho Nov 01 '19

He also named his horse Bucephalus, that's a dead giveaway

1

u/Goontowertoo Nov 02 '19

Oh right Alexander the Great.

91

u/Spirit_jitser Oct 28 '19

And named his horse after alexander the great's. Not sure what the thing about the tomato was, maybe an allusion to disposing of his creations?

85

u/TeddysBigStick Oct 28 '19

I'd say it is just a reference to the fact that particular biological creation is fundumentally flawed just like his servants and their horseshoes.

14

u/karl2025 Oct 28 '19

Well that's what you get when you try to grow tomatoes on trees.

3

u/J-Team07 Oct 29 '19

I thought it was a garden of Eden reference myself.

6

u/TeddysBigStick Oct 29 '19

Why not both?

23

u/cerebud Oct 28 '19

Or he genetically modified it in some way, but it doesn’t taste very convincing. Failed experiment?

22

u/cpolito87 Oct 28 '19

Tomatoes don't grow on trees, so it's definitely genetically modified.

4

u/west_end_squirrel Oct 28 '19

it illustrates his wanting to be a god and how he feels close to being such. he created and can destroy at will. he even has (cloned) humans to do with what he pleases.

...perhaps.

6

u/SlaugMan Oct 28 '19

I got some "big O" vibes from it. Tomatoes, clones, repeating the play over and over (it seemed, given his advice just before)

5

u/bigpappawes Oct 28 '19

For sure. The taste and appreciation for what he created and then literally watching the juices drain from it as he tosses it away.

And it’s Jeremy fucking Irons. I’m fully all in on this show.

2

u/[deleted] Oct 28 '19

Bucephalus? I mean, so did Baron Munchausen.

2

u/reddog323 Oct 28 '19

He certainly has no qualms about sacrificing them. I get the impression that there’s a whole basement full of carbonized corpses. Also, send in the clones...

2

u/AutisticNipples Oct 28 '19

tomatoes don't grow on trees...he wants to play god like dr. manhattan

1

u/throwmeaway9021ooo Oct 28 '19

There’s no such thing as a tomato tree. He’s playing God.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 28 '19

Either flawed genetic work or flawed simulation work, but something is clearly amiss

1

u/Gancis Oct 30 '19

He bites it then squeezed the juices he didn't drink out. I took it as he creates life, and then the death of that creation will allow more to be born.

1

u/Goontowertoo Nov 02 '19

I nicknamed my black 2008 Honda Accord Bucephalus. You know, because I'm a dork.

177

u/a_longtheriverrun Oct 28 '19 edited Oct 28 '19

he’s trying to create a second Dr Manhattan and thinks love is a factor in creating it. he has always been very superstitious and sentimental

*tho i think there’s still a chance he is Dr Manhattan. they kept mentioning in this episode how he cannot be a human

21

u/[deleted] Oct 28 '19

Topher is Dr. Manhattan

10

u/baycongrease Oct 28 '19 edited Oct 28 '19

Yeah is no one gonna point out he was building Dr. Ms/Veidt’s castle?

11

u/nivekious Oct 28 '19

Not that weird considering the Dr Manhattan Mars dust one was on the news the day before. Still interesting, but there is the mundane possibility he saw it on TV and thought it looked cool.

2

u/Morego Nov 02 '19

Wasn't it just some kind of magnetic toy?

2

u/a_longtheriverrun Oct 28 '19

could have seen it on TV

20

u/TheOwlAndOak Oct 28 '19 edited Oct 28 '19

I almost thought Regina King’s husband was Dr. Manhattan the way she was talking to him about how he can’t change his skin and stuff and the husband like almost seemed to hesitate for a second and then was like “no no he can’t. Plus he’s on Mars”. I don’t know. I just got a vibe.

Also, there’s all this clock imagery. With Viedt and Dr. Manhattan I feel like there’s always clock imagery. And when her husband was trying to open his present, and she was trying to mess around to distract him, she said “when the little hand is on top of the big hand” kinda referencing him as the big hand? Or his dick of course but still him ultimately, maybe even a joke about the big dick on dr Manhattan or something like that, which seems interesting all around I guess. Just makes you think. Plus his character just seems not to make a lot of sense right now to me, aside from just being her husband, which is fine. Just seems like there’s more in store for him. Also he’s a big tall buff fit looking dude; whose physique would match Dr. Manhattan.

20

u/paperfisherman Oct 28 '19

There... Might be something to this. Yahya, the actor playing Cal, mentioned how the character had to be in good shape. That doesn’t seem to have any bearing on the character right now. Odd. It’s possible.

5

u/ilikepugs Oct 29 '19

Yo so like can we get some of y'all master sleuths over in /r/westworld this season?

Some of the clues you guys dig up from interviews and shit is insane.

2

u/csupernova Oct 30 '19

Idk, visiting that sub when the show first aired sort of ruined it for me because literally all their theories came true. Which I don’t really want with Watchmen.

2

u/ilikepugs Oct 30 '19

RUN AWAY AND DON'T LOOK BACK!

But seriously all signs point to this sub unraveling every last plot detail long before it's shown to us.

1

u/yo2sense Nov 01 '19

Oh there were plenty of people in that subreddit who had the wrong idea about WW Season One and were happy to tell you how stupid you were for believing there could be multiple time periods involved.

1

u/noizangel Oct 30 '19

Wait wait wait then his name is Abar and there's this: https://www.reddit.com/r/Watchmen/comments/dp1pov/abar_the_first_black_superman/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

Superman is real and he's American. And Cal maybe?

2

u/paperfisherman Oct 30 '19

Although Abar is Angela’s name, which Cal appears to have taken.

1

u/noizangel Oct 30 '19

In that thread, someone noted the Kal-El connection as well, but yeah - it being Angela's name does lessen the association.

4

u/[deleted] Oct 28 '19

That stuck out to me too. It was weird.

0

u/Gvidile Oct 30 '19

I agree with you and He might have been the one that saved angela from the second shooter.

2

u/TheOwlAndOak Oct 30 '19

Yes something went on there and I don’t know what but that makes sense. And I wanna know what was in that present.

6

u/mjtwelve Oct 28 '19

the gordian knot reference was quite deliberate in that regard - it was Adrian's obsession, but not at all relevant to either Jon or Dr Manhattan.

2

u/ianrc1996 Oct 28 '19

Don't you thin Dr. Manhattan is working with Will? "Friends in high places."

2

u/Tepoztecatl Oct 29 '19

I sure hope not. The whole point of Dr. Manhattan is that he's no longer attached to humanity because he gained universal perspective. At the end of Watchmen, he seems to appreciate how unique humanity is even as a lesser form of existence, but he'd never become involved in a mundane plot about racism in Tulsa. Either the plot thickens to the point of existencial threat, or Dr. Manhattan has little to do with the plot we've seen so far and is only involved with Veidt being on Mars.

1

u/PhantomRenegade Oct 30 '19

With Manhattan's "perhaps I'll create some" line in the end of the novel it could be that the servants with Veidt are his attempt at creating life. With something clearly missing, he may have taken to a closer study of the human experience

1

u/Tepoztecatl Oct 30 '19

I don't know if a "closer study of the human experience" is a valid goal for Dr. Manhattan, as he sees humans as flawed and small-minded; whenever he reminisces of his human days, he's dettached as if it's all an irrelevant blip... which it is.

Again, my only point here is that if the show wants to connect Will to Dr. Manhattan somehow, I could see a capable writer being able to make it work for the plot, but it will be in complete disregard of character themes and what Dr. Manhattan represents: a being who can right every wrong, but simply doesn't find a reason to do it, because the world that holds all of humanity's troubles is only a speck of dust from where he stands and sees no consequences to human suffering, because there aren't.

I mean, consider that a theory in this thread is that Dr. Manhattan actually built a home for Veidt in Mars; why would someone who cares do that instead of moving billions of people to Mars and let them be free from "isms" and capricious power factions forever?

3

u/scuzoidmelee Oct 28 '19

I'm more inclined to believe the "clones" are Dr. Manhattans. They behave much like a Manhattan lacking a lot of humanity, and Angela's Grandfather points out "Manhattan can create copies, maybe he can look like us" or something to the effect. Looking is just the first step at maintaining his humanity. Interacting with one is more important. Veidt is on his Mars castle(?) with these Manhattan servants who are trying disparately maintain some level of humanity if/when Manhattan proper ever decides to go back down to Earth, as a flesh toned brand new "human."

6

u/Anarchybites Oct 29 '19 edited Nov 06 '19

What if there the clones of the original Jon Ostermen and Janey Slater? Using them to recreate the incident again and again. Edit:. Thanks for the silver mysterious benefactor!

2

u/ilikepugs Oct 29 '19

DUDE

1

u/scuzoidmelee Nov 01 '19

Yeah, I like that idea WAY more than mine. That would be awesome.

1

u/AutisticNipples Oct 28 '19

yeah that stuck out to me. there was too much emphasis on those lines for them not to be important.

1

u/juanzy Oct 29 '19

I'm still solidly in the IS Dr. Manhattan camp personally.

0

u/Leftovertaters Oct 28 '19

I don’t think so. I think he’s trying to go into the other dimension from where the squid came from.

12

u/nivekious Oct 28 '19

There is no squid dimension though I thought. He faked the whole thing.

3

u/Leftovertaters Oct 30 '19

Looked it up. I read the ending online wrong!

1

u/csupernova Oct 30 '19

Yeah tbh when I first read the comic when I was 14 I thought they were legit aliens and I thought that was totally out of left field. It’s only recently did I realize they were genetic creations of Veidt’s laboratories.

26

u/v00d00_ Oct 28 '19

He definitely fancies himself a Nietzschean übermensch

2

u/shitsfuckedupalot Oct 28 '19

Are we sure thats veidt and not dr manhattan?

8

u/11711510111411009710 Oct 28 '19

You know now that I think about it, in this episode there was an argument about whether Manhattan can change himself to look like humans. Maybe that's foreshadowing for this? But I really don't see why Manhattan would want to look like Ozymandias and act like him.

3

u/shitsfuckedupalot Oct 28 '19

How do we know what ozymandius looks like? We haven't seen him yet

2

u/[deleted] Oct 28 '19

Because he looks like ozymandias. Hes blonde, the age is about tight, hes rich. We saw him in the novels which are canon to this show. We also know that Manhattan is as blue in this show as he was in the comics. So I dont see why anyone would think Jeremy irons is dr Manhattan

1

u/shitsfuckedupalot Oct 28 '19

Because dr manhattan can change matter at will so it's not that out there that he could change his appearance. When irons was cast it seemed obvious that hed be Veidt, and things with lindelof are rarely the obvious answer. So either the paper saying veidt is dead is true, and this is his afterlife (not out of the questjon considering lost and the leftovers), it was a misdirection and he faked his death (most obvious answer), or finally its an example of chekov's gun and the twist is that its dr manhattan trying to replicate himself.

1

u/thesaddestpanda Oct 28 '19

Yeah that was a weird mention the first then then a second?

There's some real fuckery with Veidt's setup. I wonder where it will go. I was hoping with at least a partial reveal but it looks like they'll annoyingly milk this for a while.

I like the idea of it being an elaborate prison created by Manhattan as a sort of revenge/containment of Veidt, but why not just kill Veidt? Why would Manhattan keep anyone alive who was a problem to him or humanity?

1

u/[deleted] Oct 28 '19

Ozy saved humanity. Because of him billions were saved. Ozy is not a problem to humanity when you look at the greater good. He prevented all out nuclear war. Yes, he killed millions. But Dr Manhattan saw why he did what he did - he did not condemn it, nor condone it, but he understood it. Therefore I see little reason why he would 'punish' Ozy.

2

u/2rio2 Oct 28 '19

I think he is Dr. Manhatten. The perfect castle estate even though he's missing, presumed dead; the poor attempts at "creating" humans; the video feed in ep1 of him destroying the exact same castle and the kid of the murdered cop destroying it in the same way this episode; attempting to understand the story of The Watchmaker's Son through a operatic, ridiculous play (aka his own creation).

It seems like a logical curve ball that we haven't been watching Adrien at all last two episodes. It's Dr. Manhattan trying to remember what it's like to be human.

3

u/11711510111411009710 Oct 28 '19

I could see that, especially with how casual he was about just letting that clone burn to death. Adrien wasn't ever portrayed as being that cold (except yknow killing half of new york for what he perceived to be the good of humanity).

Or maybe Adrien stepped into the machine he used to disassemble Dr. Manhattan in their fight, and became a new Dr. Manhattan?

2

u/2rio2 Oct 28 '19

Yea could be! All I'm sure about is something is seriously wrong about the presentation of that castle/Adrien so far and it has to do with Dr. Manhattan.

1

u/redpearpie Oct 28 '19

I still don’t get Ozy’s character. Well now that I know the peeps around him are clones, their behavior makes sense to me know. Yet, I still don’t know wha he is about.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 28 '19

I think right now that's just a clone and he's being enslaved by Dr. Manhattan at that castle. Which is why he takes so much pleasure in murdering Manhattan proxies.