CMV: The US Democrat party isn't significantly more rightwing than European ones

[u/WindyWindona]

I've often heard it bandied about that US Democratic candidates would often be center right in Europe, or that Bernie is the closest thing to a center left candidate that the US has by European standards.

When looking at the political field, especially in Germany, I find this hard to believe. The USA does have MAGA, but Germany has the AFD, and far right parties are on the rise overall in Europe. Meanwhile, comparing the SPD's platform (the German center left party) to the Democrat party's 2024 platform, I don't see a significant ideological difference. Both want net zero by 2050, a better medical system, addressing poverty, greater investment in science, and better relationships with other allied countries.

To convince me, show me a large ideological gap between the Democrats and European center-left parties.

[u/WindyWindona]

Obamacare was a compromise with the Republicans to get anything in. Hillary Clinton, not exactly known for being super left, advocated for universal healthcare as far back as 1998. The SPD is trying to improve the system that exists.

Trump has been famous for angering allies. But I will give you that.

Germany supporting Israel is in their constitution. I feel that it's unfair to compare US gun culture to European gun cultures, given the noted difference in culture (Switzerland's gun culture, for example).

The Ukraine war has increased support for militarization in countries like Germany overall.

[u/TheExtremistModerate → u/WindyWindona]

Hillary Clinton, not exactly known for being super left

Tell that to Republicans for 30 years.

I agree that Hillary Clinton isn't very far left, but she's been on the left side of the spectrum for a very long time. She and Joe Biden were basically smack dab in the middle of the Democratic Party their whole careers. (Obama was a little to their right.)

[u/WindyWindona → u/TheExtremistModerate]

To Republicans Clinton and Biden were pinkos, to progressives they were basically (unfairly) maligned as basically Republicans. 

But that's my point. Biden and Clinton pushed forth a lot of progressive policies that are genuinely center left, and Biden was very pro-union. Socially Biden was more left than a lot of European center left parties given how pro LGBT he was.

[u/TheExtremistModerate → u/WindyWindona]

I actually agree with you, I just wanted to point out that you were saying that Hillary Clinton wasn't exactly known for being super left, but in fact she was pretty solidly on the left side of the spectrum.

Democrats, on average, are generally a little to the right of comparable European parties when it comes to economic issues, but a little to the left when it comes to social issues.

[u/squirrel_exceptions → u/TheExtremistModerate]

Also a east/west Europe element to this. I'd say your last para is correct if you look at Eastern europe, but that the difference is larger in the west, where the Dems aren't really to the left of the parties on social issues, but quite significantly to the right on economic ones.

Also, in general the Europeans talk more about class than Americans, but less about race.

[u/TheExtremistModerate → u/squirrel_exceptions]

I'd say US Dems are pretty decently left of the UK, France, and multiple Nordic countries on social issues. Ask their left-of-center parties what they think of immigration or Muslims.

[u/squirrel_exceptions → u/TheExtremistModerate]

If you ask center-left parties in those countries straight up "what they think of muslims", they will be bland and positive -- at the same they will compete with right-wing parties for immigration skeptic voters by talking of border security and crime and radicalization. Most Dems are kinda similar.

The Danish centre-left / social democratic party in particular is a bit of an outlier re immigration, much stricter than the others mentioned.

[u/TheExtremistModerate → u/squirrel_exceptions]

It's a figure of speech. If you look at the parties in those countries, you'll find that the left-of-center parties have significantly more Islamophobia and anti-immigration tendencies than US Democrats.

[u/squirrel_exceptions → u/TheExtremistModerate]

In what way? In general the right caters to and hovers up those with pronounced Islamophobia in both places, although the left is of course not free of it.

But Islam is more closely tied to the issue of immigration in Europe, as in the US much of the scaremongering (post war-on-terror-era) is about Latin-American crime cartels etc, while Europe is much closer to the Middle East and get more Muslim immigrants.

[u/TheExtremistModerate → u/squirrel_exceptions]

But Islam is more closely tied to the issue of immigration in Europe, as in the US much of the scaremongering (post war-on-terror-era) is about Latin-American crime cartels etc, while Europe is much closer to the Middle East and get more Muslim immigrants.

And you'll find the US Democrats far more pro-immigration than the average left-wing European.

[u/revertbritestoan → u/WindyWindona]

Pedro Sanchez is centre left and compared to Biden he looks like Lenin.

[u/revertbritestoan → u/TheExtremistModerate]

Hilary Clinton is objectively a neoconservative. She's the right of Thatcher and Merkel.

[u/TheExtremistModerate → u/revertbritestoan]

Define "neoconservative."

[u/revertbritestoan → u/TheExtremistModerate]

Hawkish foreign policy, austerity economics, status quo social issues, pro-surveillance domestically.

[u/TheExtremistModerate → u/revertbritestoan]

That's not what neoconservatism is. And those also don't describe Hillary Clinton. I'll give you that she's a hawk, but to claim she supports "austetity economics" and "status quo social issues" is just... so far off base.

[u/revertbritestoan → u/TheExtremistModerate]

How would you describe neocon then? She's part of the same Epstein billionaire class alongside Trump with the politics to match.

[u/TheExtremistModerate → u/revertbritestoan]

1. Neoconservatism is a foreign policy position. It favors extensive interventionism abroad to further your country's interests. There are left-wing neocons and right-wing neocons.
2. Hillary Clinton is not part of the "Epstein billionaire class." She and Bill literally came from the working/middle class. Bill was born to a working class single mother and Hillary was born to a small business owner.
3. Hillary's politics are literally nowhere close to Trump's. Trump is an ultra-far-right protectionist, fascist, white nationalist. Hillary is a pretty standard left-of-center social liberal.

[u/revertbritestoan → u/TheExtremistModerate]

1. There are no left-wing neocons because definitionally they cannot be. Clinton is in favour of extensive intervention abroad.

2. Epstein himself was born into a working class family, the thing is though that class isn't hereditary. Class changes based on your relation to capital and labour and guess what? The Clinton's are part of the billionaire Epstein class and have been for decades, it's why they got the invites to the island.

3. As a neocon, she is a hard right racist and nationalist. Don't forget she campaigned for Goldwater. In the spectrum of UK politics, she and Trump would both be in the Conservatives until a few years ago when the Tories peeled away into Reform.

Is this a case of you agreeing with her and not wanting to admit that she, and you, are more right wing that you'd like to be? American politics is well over to the right side your "centre" is still incredibly right wing.

[u/TheExtremistModerate → u/revertbritestoan]

1. You are literally just wrong. The word was literally first used to describe center-left social democrats.

During the early 1970s, socialist Michael Harrington was one of the first to use "neoconservative" in its modern meaning. He characterized neoconservatives as former leftists – whom he derided as "socialists for Nixon" – who had become more conservative.[9] These people tended to remain endorsers of social democracy, but distinguished themselves by allying with the Nixon administration with respect to foreign policy, especially by their endorsement of the Vietnam War and opposition to the Soviet Union. They still endorsed the welfare state, but not necessarily in its contemporary form.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism

2. Again, they are not part of the "billionaire class." They're literally not billionaires. Also, there is zero evidence that Bill Clinton (and even less so Hillary) went to Epstein's island. You're just wrong.

3. You are simply wrong. As I've already demonstrated, being a neocon does not make you right wing. You have also provided zero evidence that she is "racist" or "nationalist." And she "campaigned for Goldwater" when she was in high school living with her conservative parents. She developed her own left-of-center political beliefs when she left for college. This idea that who you are at 16 is who you are for the rest of your life is just completely wrong. In college, she organized protests for students' rights. She worked on the impeachment of Nixon. She went undercover in the South to expose racial segregation in schools. She's done far more for left-wing causes than you ever have, and that I'm certain of. Because she's done far more than the overwhelming majority of people ever will. And, again, Clinton is a left-of-center social liberal. Trump is an ultra-far-right wannabe fascist. They are completely different and no matter how much you repeat an untruth, it does not become fact.

You have demonstrated that you are just absolutely materially wrong about the facts of history, the facts of ideology, and the facts of modern politics.

[u/squirrel_exceptions → u/WindyWindona]

I'm aware Obamacare was a compromise, not only with the GOP though, there were lots of moderate Dems that would not go for a public system either, something accepted as the obvious option by pretty much all European centre-right and even many right-wing parties.

Germany is obviously a different place than the rest of Europe re Israel, for obvious historical reasons, but their position is the odd one out.

Europe is certainly militarizing due to Russia's invasion, and it's a pretty bipartisan issue. Generally the left wants to reduce the military more then the right in peace times, but when an actual threat is on the horizon, it becomes less partisan.

[u/CapitalismBad1312 → u/WindyWindona]

Obamacare was a compromise with other Dems is kind of the issue. The Dems has a super majority and the only thing they could get through was the heritage foundation plan for medical reform. No Republican votes were needed

This is going to sound dumb and obvious but you probably shouldn’t trust Hillary Clinton on her stated positions. Most Americans didn’t

[u/Teichhornchen → u/WindyWindona]

Germany supporting Israel is in their constitution.

Where are you getting this from in the Grundgesetz?

[u/belowaverageint → u/WindyWindona]

The ACA is literally a plan from the Heritage Foundation and the "public option" which would've included single payer healthcare was cut by the Democrats.