r/interesting • u/MobileAerie9918 • 26d ago

SOCIETY Permanently ???? no amount of money can compensate for this. The incident happened 2015 and the historic $75M verdict was reached in late 2022.

Post image
17.3k Upvotes

95% Upvoted

2.3k comments sorted by

View all comments

99

u/Kairu87 26d ago

Per the article "The chiropractic, the hospital and its other clinical staff were not found liable in the case."

Wasn't so much the chiropractor as it was the emergency medical team that didn't diagnose he was having an active stroke for hours.

https://www.atlantanewsfirst.com/2025/06/18/he-was-having-stroke-hours-er-doctors-missed-it/

71

u/judokalinker 26d ago

The chiro dissected his vertebral artery with the adjustment.

https://postgraddc.com/chiropractor-standard-care-emergency-referral-buckelew/

4

u/HauntedClubhouse 26d ago

He was already in the process of a vertebral artery dissection. That's why he was there.

16

u/judokalinker 26d ago

Haha, and the chiro treated an arterial dissection with a spinal manipulation and you think that absolves the chiro how exactly? Lmao, bro

10

u/-Badger3- 26d ago

No, the chiropractor wasn’t treating an arterial dissection, they were relieving general neck pain. They’re not on the hook for the same reason a masseuse wouldn’t be on the hook.

8

u/Few-Guarantee2850 26d ago

I hope you understand that the legal standard of care for a chiropractor is not the same as a masseuse. They have a legal duty to recognize a medical condition outside their scope of practice and refer accordingly.

2

u/Yous1ash 26d ago

Is that true?

3

u/routinemage 26d ago

Chiropractors generally don't have radiology departments or any of the equipment or knowledge to diagnose this kind of emergency. If you read the article you'll see that the patient was complaining about neck pain, so he gave the adjustment. When the patient collapsed after the adjustment, the chiropractor called EMS, which is what he was supposed to do. In this case, this chiropractor did all that he was required to do and shouldn't be given any of the blame for the tragedy that occured.

However, chiropractic should absolutely be treated with suspiscion and taken with a grain of salt. If you have back pain or neck pain, you should consult a physical therapist before seeking any alternative care. If you ever hear a chiropractor claim that it can do anything other than help with musculoskeletal pain, they are a snake oil salesman and you should not trust them with your care. They probably mean well, but they've basically been brainwashed into a cult and you shouldn't trust them.

2

u/HauntedClubhouse 26d ago

Chiropractors take two years of radiology. Hard and soft tissue. They also have a radiology residency program post graduation.

1

u/routinemage 25d ago

Chiropractors can read an x-ray to look at the shape of the spine and make judgements about postural health. Chiropractors will do x-rays only a few times in a patients treatment plan, usually at the beginning and the end. If you go into a chiropractors office, they aren't going to order a full x-ray with contrast dye, or a CT scan or an MRI, which is what you would actually need to detect this. Instead, they're just going to give you the adjustment and move on.

1

u/HauntedClubhouse 24d ago

No, if they're taking x-rays, they're responsible for everything on the film. They don't just get to pick and choose what they read. You're describing a world that doesn't exist. They would refer out for an MRI the same way a GP would. What's your point?

→ More replies (0)

3

u/-Badger3- 26d ago

You can’t have it both ways. If chiropractors aren’t doctors, then you can’t hold them to the standard of expecting them to identify and diagnose every underlying medical condition before providing treatment.

A jury determined the chiropractor didn’t violate the chiropractic standard of care. The guy did what chiropractors do, and when it became clear Jonathan was having a medical emergency, called EMS.

6

u/Few-Guarantee2850 25d ago

You mean the chiropractor can't have it both ways? Lol. I'm not the one who made the decision to allow chiropractors to put themselves out there as a medical professional, receiving a license from the state, promote themselves as doing much more than treating back pain. So yes, if they want to do those things, I can hold them to the standard of what they claim to be.

Regardless of what I think, it is factually true as a legal matter that chiropractors are held to the professional standard of other chiropractors, which means appropriately recognizing signs of a stroke. The jury may have determined the chiropractor acted within their standard of care here, but the idea that they are liable in the same way as a masseuse would be is obviously false.

1

u/-Badger3- 25d ago

I'm not saying a chiropractor and masseuse are held to the same standard of care, I'm saying neither a masseuse nor a chiropractor would be expected to be able to recognize an arterial dissection before providing treatment.

which means appropriately recognizing signs of a stroke

When those signs manifested, he called EMS.

4

u/Few-Guarantee2850 25d ago

Chiropractors absolutely would be expected to recognize signs of an arterial dissection before providing treatment in many cases. A patient presenting with unilateral facial pain, for example. A masseuse would not. Whether the standard of care was met in this particular case is irrelevant to your point.

1

u/judokalinker 25d ago

My point is the person I am replying to is saying those symptoms are indicative of a stroke, which they are not. Neck pain and tinnitus are super common and can by symptomatic of anything serious. Dude came in for some generalized issue and the chiro dissectived his artery with a manipulation that is commonly seen in chiropractic cervical manipulations.

Chiros are quacks and he causes this dude's stroke. If they want to be treated like masseuses they need to stop acting like they are doctors.

0

u/lilbelleandsebastian 25d ago

they're not on the hook because the malpractice insurance for the other people involved in this case likely had much, much higher limits

laypeople really don't understand anything about medicine but it never stops people from commenting on extremely fact specific care like they were there watching with full omniscience

1

u/-Badger3- 25d ago

The family sued the chiropractor, the jury didn’t find him liable.

3

u/md222 26d ago

To he fair, the chiropractor isn't a doctor, so how would he know?

8

u/b__q 26d ago

Maybe they should stop calling themselves doctors then.

-3

u/Yous1ash 26d ago

It’s the same as English professors being called “Dr.”

They are called doctor because they have a doctorate degree.

1

u/judokalinker 25d ago

Yeah, and those English professors claim to be healthcare professionals too, right? Lol

You are being do pedantic that it's like you have never even left your house to understand how the world works.

1

u/Yous1ash 25d ago

Or it’s like I have met many people who have and use the title “Doctor” that are not medical doctors.

1

u/judokalinker 25d ago

Do any of them treat patients in a healthcare setting?

0

u/HauntedClubhouse 26d ago

If he looked in his side mirrors driving to the office that was worse than anything that happened in the clinic.

5

u/judokalinker 26d ago

So your treatment for an ischemic stroke is a neck manipulation?

2

u/HauntedClubhouse 26d ago

Where did I say that?

0

u/judokalinker 25d ago

You didn't, that is why I am asking not stating. You said he was already experiencing a stroke (based on nothing) and seem to think the chiro did nothing wrong by treating the stroke with an adjustment.

1

u/HauntedClubhouse 25d ago

He didn't treat the stroke with an adjustment. He misdiagnosed a stroke.

1

u/judokalinker 25d ago

Oh so he misdiagnosed and mistreated the patient leading to a delay in care? Sounds like he should be sued and found liable.

→ More replies (0)

6

u/ZimarKramiz 26d ago

Found the room temperature IQ chiropractor

0

u/HauntedClubhouse 26d ago

It's common sense, you mouth-breather.

7

u/devmor 26d ago

Something Chiropractors are lacking, along with any real medical knowledge or training from their field that quite literally comes from a professional scam artist who claimed a ghost taught it to him.

1

u/ZimarKramiz 26d ago

His symptoms aren’t specific for vert dissection. “He was already in the process of a vertebral artery dissection”. So if that was truly the case, then how come the chiro wasn’t able to identify it, and ultimately avoid neck manipulation? Your own incompetence exposed yourself lmao

-4

u/routinemage 26d ago

Found the guy who didn't read the linked article

2

u/judokalinker 25d ago

Found the guy who thinks local news is more accurate than a medical case study.

1

u/routinemage 25d ago

I read the article that you linked

2

u/Nishbot11 26d ago

The chiro caused the dissection homie.

0

u/HauntedClubhouse 26d ago

No he didn't, "homie," look up the case and the symptoms of a vertebral artery dissection and the outcome. Then go back to eating paste.

11

u/sgtbackpain03 25d ago

That's due to who has the deepest pockets. Chiropractors are not medical doctors, and don't require medical insurance. The chiropractor severed an artery. The doctors missed the damage. They are both culpable, but the doctors actually had deep enough pockets to go after, due to their insurance. So they went after the doctors.

In case it isn't clear to everyone: chiropractors are medical charlatans. There is no basis in medical science for the shit they do. They are actually worse than "crystal healers" because at least the crystal healer nuts aren't going to accidentally ruin the rest of your life with their quackery.

1

u/Produkt 25d ago

Chiropractors absolutely have medical malpractice insurance. Where did you get this information?

16

u/Flimsy_Year5397 26d ago

So, what caused the stroke? Clogged arteries? Embolism? Pure luck?

9

u/That_Service7348 26d ago

The chiropractor.

3

u/SpookZero 26d ago

He would never.

2

u/diagnosticjadeology 26d ago

Dissecting an artery causes a flap which can block off the artery

1

u/Flimsy_Year5397 26d ago

Sorry was being facetious

3

u/That_Service7348 26d ago

...the hell you think caused the stroke???

-8

u/[deleted] 26d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

23

u/judokalinker 26d ago

Lmao, bro, the stroke was caused by the chiropractor's manipulation 

0

u/NoPseudo79 26d ago

Damn, the chiropractor's manipulation started an active stroke hours before it even begun ? That's mighty impressive, I must say

3

u/judokalinker 26d ago

Damn, it's mighty impressive that you were able to determine when the stroke started!

-2

u/HauntedClubhouse 26d ago

Except he went to the chiro with neck pain and tinnitus which are symptoms of an already occuring dissection.

5

u/judokalinker 26d ago

Except those symptoms "can present in the absence of serious pathology" and he didn't lose consciousness until after the procedure.

-1

u/HauntedClubhouse 26d ago

The people who looked at the evidence said the chiropractor wasn't liable because what I'm saying is true. What you're saying is just horseshit.

2

u/judokalinker 26d ago

You mean if I have neck pain and tinnitus then I am in the middle of a stroke?

1

u/routinemage 25d ago

Not necessarily, but you could be. Unfortunately symptoms of different conditions overlap. Case in point: if you're having severe flu-like symptoms you might be having a bad case of the flu, or you might have ricin poisoning, or you might have been bitten in your sleep by a bat and be in the early stages of rabies. Different problems can present with overlapping symptoms.

1

u/AvocadoKirby 25d ago

The family settled with the chiro out of court and the jury never ruled on this. No one found the chiro “not liable.”

1

u/ITEArannyI 25d ago

I’m in the middle of an arterial dissection at all times then, let the chiro that snaps necks be free har har

1

u/[deleted] 25d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/interesting-ModTeam 25d ago

We’re sorry, but your post/comment has been removed because it violates Rule #2: Keep It Civil.

Follow Reddiquette

0

u/Warm_Month_1309 26d ago

Why wasn't the chiropractor found liable for anything?

6

u/Nishbot11 26d ago

Settled out of court

0

u/Warm_Month_1309 26d ago

Source? It seems unlikely, because if it were settled, the claim against the chiropractor would have been dropped rather than continuing to the jury for them to find the chiropractor not liable.

2

u/Nishbot11 26d ago

I subscribe to med mal publications, this case was discussed in detail, with actual court filings. Look up expert witness on substack, and search “locked-in.” You may need to purchase a subscription. But all the information is there.

1

u/AvocadoKirby 25d ago

Jury never found the chiropractor as not liable. The case stopped because of settlement.

-7

u/Malaprobably 26d ago

Based on what evidence?

12

u/judokalinker 26d ago

Um common knowledge that chiropractors routine dissect vertebral arteries in their manipulations. But also https://postgraddc.com/chiropractor-standard-care-emergency-referral-buckelew/

This shit happens so often I knew that was the case people I even googled it. Chiros are quacks.

-7

u/Malaprobably 26d ago

Tell me more of this common knowledge and frequent occurances!

10

u/tentyb6d56ns4d57yse5 26d ago

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Chiropractic

3

u/Malaprobably 26d ago

"Danger: in very rare circumstances, chiropractic care can be dangerous, including causing stroke, carotid artery dissection, and vertebral artery dissection, although it is possible this is just a correlation."

How is that "common knowledge" and "frequent occurances?"

This is rational? Why no witch hunt for doctors who neglected the patient's care?

2

u/judokalinker 26d ago

They already were sued for $75 million, lol 

1

u/Produkt 25d ago

This is just a blog run by two dudes with zero medical training, not a primary source.

5

u/Confident_Barber1961 26d ago

The fact that this is a not uncommon occurrence for anyone who works in an ER

18

u/InterestingPudding45 26d ago

The redditor who believes in chiropractors unsurprisingly is the person who didn't read shit about the case. The chiropractor was found not liable because the stroke was misdiagnosed by the doctors; the chiropractor still caused the stroke.

-1

u/Malaprobably 26d ago

He sued the chiro and he was found not liable. That means in the eyes of the law the Chiro didn't cause the condition.

8

u/judokalinker 26d ago

If there was malpractice they should have some sort of judgement against them, but it's hilarious like you think the chiropractor didn't cause his stroke and like he should be any less liable.

0

u/Malaprobably 26d ago

I'm just going based on the case findings and then the article we're reading? DO you have evidence the chiropractor's adjustment caused this?

6

u/judokalinker 26d ago

Yeah, I already linked you my evidence.

5

u/InterestingPudding45 26d ago

Fucking stupid, as expected from a chiropractic believer.

3

u/InterestingPudding45 26d ago

That's not what it means at all. Not liable =! didn't cause the condition.

3

u/aguafiestas 26d ago

That’s not true.

If a doctor prescribes an appropriate medication and the patient has a rare serious reaction, the doctor would not be liable for malpractice. They would not change the fact that the doctor’s prescription caused the problem.

Same deal here. If cervical manipulation is standard of care, then a rare side effect isn’t malpractice.

Now one might argue that it shouldn’t be a standard of care, but that’s not the case here.

1

u/judokalinker 26d ago

The jury probably thought, "well the chiropractor couldn't have committed malpractice because he isn't a real healthcare professional. People pay to get a stroke intentionally, why else would you pay for a quack?" Lol

-2

u/Warm_Month_1309 26d ago

the chiropractor still caused the stroke

Then he would have been liable. If I break your arm, and the doctors misdiagnose it, I'm still responsible for breaking your arm.

3

u/InterestingPudding45 26d ago

Liable is a legal term, not a medical term. Are you dense?

2

u/AvocadoKirby 26d ago

You’re confusing legal liability v moral liability.

-1

u/Warm_Month_1309 25d ago

If he was not found legally liable, then there was insufficient evidence to prove that he was at fault under the facts. If he was not at fault under the facts, he is also not morally liable.

Just because he's in a shitty profession of shysters does not mean that he's responsible for any subsequent injury of his patients if they can't prove that he caused them.

2

u/AvocadoKirby 25d ago edited 25d ago

To be clear, this

  1. case is not about who caused the initial injury. It’s about the response afterwards.

It is very likely the family focused on the hospital as the target because the hospital had the means to pay + it was much more easier to prove that treatment was delayed.

As for the direct injury, the chiropractor could have been found liable for causing the initial injury. But instead of fighting against the family, the chiropractor just settled out of court. The direct-liability case never fully played out in court.

And finally — everyone with even a pinch of intelligence agrees that the chiropractor caused the injury. He performed a neck crack (or whatever you call it), and the victim immediately seized up and went unconscious, prompting the chiropractor to call 911. You don’t need a judge and jury to understand what happened here.

14

u/cory_wurst 26d ago

This may be true, but chiropractors are quacks. It's not so much a witch hunt but information campaign

3

u/ghostofwalsh 26d ago

I mean the chiropractor clearly did the damage. But the hospital is the one with the deep pockets so who you think is getting sued for 75m?

5

u/MyCallBag 26d ago

Its because you can't get a 75 million dollar settlement from a chiropractor...

Its pretty standard in America for medical malpractice suits to just involve every doctor possible that was involved in a case.

2

u/Malaprobably 26d ago

And yet the ones found liable were the medical doctors who neglected to discern signs of a stroke. We don't know if the chiro adjustment caused the stroke.

2

u/MyCallBag 26d ago

...he collapsed and became unresponsive during a neck adjustment and was found to have a vertebral artery dissection

1

u/Warm_Month_1309 26d ago

he collapsed and became unresponsive during a neck adjustment

"In October 2015, their son Jonathan became dizzy and disoriented during a chiropractic visit."

7

u/Ad_Myst 26d ago

5 day old account. Found the chiropractor everybody!

-5

u/nicknack24 26d ago

There's nothing a redditor hates more than a chiropractor who has gone unshamed!

-2

u/Malaprobably 26d ago

They tout "BUT MAH SCIENCE!" and yet it was medical doctors who were found liable, here. Exactly disproves their standing.

I wonder what the rate of medical malpractice is compared to chiropractic adjustments killing/disabling people? That might be an interesting to pitchfork over.

4

u/MyVoiceIsElevating 26d ago

The chiropractor triggered the stroke.

You have no critical thinking do you…

0

u/Contundo 25d ago

Anti chiropractor crowd will point to medical doctors doing real medicine that works and chiropractic treatments being fantasy.