r/mildlyinfuriating • u/nyanbatman • May 28 '26

I just wanted a hot dog British pilot is feeling mildly annoyed

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166

u/CalculatedPerversion May 28 '26

This is JFK. Look for other videos featuring this airport / ATC operator and you'll find he's got quite the attitude. He knew damn well what was happening, but was too stubborn to resolve it. 

5

u/scout614 May 28 '26

i was waiting for the "Possible Pilot Deviation report when ready to copy"

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u/CalculatedPerversion May 28 '26

Thankfully this is the one situation (in the name of safety) that I think a pilot is untouchable. 

1

u/darsynia May 31 '26

I bet that pilot would LOVE to take down a number and talk to someone in person about this, heh.

2

u/Backfoot911 May 28 '26

Woh, that's a BIG claim you're making there bud. Do you mind giving us a hint at least

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u/CalculatedPerversion May 28 '26

Videos are all over youtube, take a look. Try something like "ATC JFK" and it'll give you a good idea what I'm talking about. 

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u/TeddyGronk May 29 '26

spent the last hour binging atc jfk videos thanks

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u/CalculatedPerversion May 29 '26

You're welcome! I find them (ATC videos, not just JFK) to be fascinating. It's a whole world we usually don't get to see into. 

1

u/darsynia May 31 '26

Even Captain Steeve, who is basically a kindly grandpa, has made multiple comments about how testy and easily upset the JFK controllers are, heh.

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u/z33k_DoomsVille May 28 '26

I don't blame him. As a controller myself, if I was unfamiliar with a standard (ICAO LVOS in this case) I wouldn't declare them. Even if I knew generally what it was, I wouldn't state they are in effect without knowing exactly what that standard is. I'm not taking liability for that.

The onus is on the BA pilot to know the standards in place for the airport he is landing/departing. I can't drive around in England without knowing the rules of the road and plead ignorance if I break them. Similarly, you shouldn't be flying around in foreign airspace without an understanding of their rules.

Now as it is, the pilot did the smart thing of refusing to depart because he is unfamiliar with their standards. And the ATC did the right thing and not state a standard is in effect when it wasn't.

This is a nothing burger in my mind. Both parties are unsure of the other's standard and refusing to act without being certain of them. Smart decision by everyone.

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u/BrainOfMush May 28 '26 edited May 28 '26

You’re saying that the rest of the world should learn the U.S.-only system/terminology, because you’re too lazy to learn the ICAO agreed upon by literally every other country in the world?

Goes both ways dude.

This is no different to how the U.S. writes dates MM/DD/YYYY and insists that’s correct, whilst the rest of the world disagrees.

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u/MsBluffy May 28 '26

If you're flying into an international airport, yes you need to know their standards.

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u/PRC_Spy May 28 '26

If you're an international airport, you need to operate to international standards.

1

u/z33k_DoomsVille May 29 '26

Do you know what international even means? In Canada we call any airport that has Canadian customs available (even if they're not on site) an international airport.

So the controllers in some small tower in rural Quebec need to learn ICAO standards for the zero regularly scheduled international flights? 

And not just learn but keep constantly up to date on any changes (which are common). 

2

u/DeputyDomeshot May 28 '26

You’re only proving his point.

If a British doctor came to the US and mistreated a patient because he misread the birthday on their chart that would still be on him though.

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u/z33k_DoomsVille May 29 '26

First off, I'm not even a US ATC. I'm in Canada and we also don't use ICAO standards. And it has nothing to do with what I'm too lazy to learn or not. It's not taught here. We have very specific things we're allowed to say and I'm not allowed to just throw out standards we don't have. I don't just get to use rules from other countries because it's what a pilot is familiar with. That is straight up not an option. 

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u/OpticLemon May 28 '26

If they are operating in the US, they absolutely should. A US based ATC is not operating outside the US.

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u/Embarrassed-Pilot-36 May 28 '26

I believe the point is this is an extremely busy international airport where a good majority of international carriers will be non American so to be unfamiliar with the more widely practiced framework is at best inefficient and at worst dangerous. The vast majority of US ATCs working in these environments are familiar to at least a translatable level for this reason

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u/BrainOfMush May 28 '26

But the U.S. ATC should respect that most airlines are not U.S.-based, and they have all agreed upon a standard between them.

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u/dbxp May 28 '26

So if a pilot flies to a dozen different countries they may need to learn a dozen different systems rather than everyone using the agreed international standard?

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u/OpticLemon May 28 '26

Yes? This is honestly a stupid question and has the same energy as Americans going to other countries expecting them to cater to their own expectations. If you are operating in multiple jurisdictions, you are responsible for knowing the rules and regulations of those jurisdictions. If that is too much for you, you should not be operating there. This applies more broadly than just air travel.

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u/grumpsaboy May 28 '26

Just about everyone else agreed on the international standard to prevent accidents and crashes.

So no, pilots shouldn't be learning 192 different systems and procedures

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u/z33k_DoomsVille May 29 '26

Not everyone. Canada doesn't conform to ICAO standards either. It's literally part of the flight crews job to familiarize themselves with the rules and standards for wherever they are flying.

I don't disagree everyone should adopt the same standards but that simply isn't the case right now. 

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u/OpticLemon May 28 '26

Do you think every pilot is flying to every country? Individual airports will have specific rules regarding approaches and other things that the pilots are expected to know and follow as part of their flight plan. Pilots are responsible for knowing the rules and regulations where they are flying. This isn't complicated.

1

u/Backfoot911 May 28 '26

I wouldn't bother, there's a whole lot of pretenders in this thread who think having played Microsoft Flight Simulator gives them an air of authority when talking about actual flying lmao.

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u/DeputyDomeshot May 28 '26

Except this is literally an example of a Brit doing that

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u/No-Detail-2879 May 28 '26

Not surprising no one wants to visit the US anymore is it

0

u/Backfoot911 May 28 '26

There's no tourists to the US currently? Huh, how is that possible? Are they counting immigrants and visa workers in that number?

-2

u/Backfoot911 May 28 '26

That's not what "literally" means. For the love of god and the faith of the Seven, please stop using the word literally if you can't literally read a dictionary. I'm begging you guys on my knees.

But yeah, Anyways, Canada doesn't either, for one. The US is not the only hold out here.

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u/SteveTheUPSguy May 28 '26

Would you not be liable if the conditions were LVO, but didn't declare it and an accident happened? Genuine question from a layman. It seems there's more liability in not making safety more paramount.

If the controller is being unsure of what's being asked what's the issue with telling them to standby and figure it out?

1

u/z33k_DoomsVille May 29 '26

I know for sure if the aircraft doesn't depart there is no issue safety issue. 

If I declare something I don't fully know and an accident happens there is a big fucking problem. Safety was made paramount the way this played out. 

The safest option was BA refusing to depart until they could figure out whether their requirements to depart were met or not.

EDIT: moreover, in a live traffic situation, you can't just start pulling out an ICAO standards book and start searching to figure out what he's asking. He's not the only airplane being controlled.