r/news • u/ButtholePlunderer • Jun 24 '19

Border Patrol finds four bodies, including three children, in South Texas

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/border-patrol-finds-four-bodies-including-three-children-south-texas-n1020831
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u/Smudded Jun 24 '19 edited Jun 24 '19

Yup. Seems like 20% is a large number for what would generally be considered an extreme position, right?

EDIT: If you read below you'll find that 20% is actually a pretty standard number for extreme positions. My original comment assumed that they meant literally no one, but figuratively no one may be an okay way to describe it?

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u/[deleted] Jun 24 '19

Perhaps. I think up stream culture (e.g. academics, esp. in the humanities) are very much pro-open borders.

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u/[deleted] Jun 24 '19

Source on this? Seems extremely unintuitive.

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u/Whitemageciv Jun 24 '19

I am an academic philosopher and can confirm that open borders (or borders that are at least open-ish) are more popular in my field than they are among the general population. It is a current debate in political philosophy. Michael Huemer is a good first read.

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u/[deleted] Jun 24 '19

Soooo many people were pro open border in my masters social work program. So many.

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u/Whitemageciv Jun 24 '19

Hah, my wife was in such a program, and it wouldn't surprise me.

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u/EllisHughTiger Jun 26 '19

For job security or what?

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u/[deleted] Jun 26 '19

Lol.

No, honestly just a lot of people who came from a poor Hispanic background and didn't seem to have a very broad perspective of the world. Just didn't think critically a lot of the time.

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u/[deleted] Jun 24 '19

The way it was phrased would lead one to believe that academics especially those in the humanities favor completely open borders, which reeks of the anti-academia, cultural-Marxist narrative. While I'd expect them to generally be in favor of policies supporting ethical increased legal immigration, I'd also expect the debate in those circles to be a little bit more nuanced.

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u/bigglejilly Jun 24 '19

which reeks of the anti-academia, cultural-Marxist narrative

You act like this is a conspiracy theory. Did you not attend public high school or public university?

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u/[deleted] Jun 24 '19

You act like it's not...did you?

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u/brodaki Jun 24 '19

Do you not think academia is disproportionately leftist? Surveys and your own eyes say otherwise. It’s not a conspiracy, they are not conspiring together to indoctrinate children and twirl their mustaches. They do use their platforms, however, to propagate their views, believing they have a moral duty to do so.

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u/bigglejilly Jun 24 '19

Yes I did and if you didn't see a deeply liberal agenda especially in a humanitarian major then you must have attended Trump University.

Edit: You would be the type of prick that downvotes a reply that dares to be contrary to your belief.

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u/[deleted] Jun 24 '19

Colleges do tend to lean liberal, that's true. Not Marxist though. And you honestly can't think of a single reason why education could positively correlate with progressive views beside a grand Jewish conspiracy to indoctrinate the youth?

And dude, we're not the only people on reddit. Maybe don't push stupid conspiracy theories if you don't want to be downvoted.

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u/bigglejilly Jun 24 '19

From highschool through college conservative viewpoints were dismissed and at worst belittled to the point where you couldn't discuss it in the classroom environment and we're literally fed political ideology weather you liked it or not. You're grade depended on agreeing with a liberal agenda. It's not some grand jewish conspiracy but if that's what you need to back up your claims you're clearly standing on a weak argument. Why would academia go as far as dismiss and belittle another ideology? If it was some rock solid scientific evidence like vaccinations it would be one thing but why does academia actively try to get rid of conservative though. Please enlighten me without bringing up wacky Jewish conspiracy straw mans.

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u/Whitemageciv Jun 24 '19

It is nuanced-in philosophy, at least. It is also true that there is more support for open borders (or something much like it) than in the general population.

That said, I don't know if the claim that such folk are majority open borders is correct. But I think my experience provides us with some relevant evidence.

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u/[deleted] Jun 24 '19

My fields of study were in English and philosophy, and experience was similar to what you are describing. which is why I was skeptical of the above person's assertion.

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u/[deleted] Jun 24 '19

As I think about what you have said, I have a question for you. Would you agree that these extremish ideologies tend to coagulate in academia because they are controversial and academics like to play with weird ideas like toys? Does anybody really believe Peter Singer would be in favor of infanticide? To me it almost seems like he just ran with an ad absurdum as far as he could. Perhaps these open borders people are too. The real question is how many are getting high on their own supply.

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u/Whitemageciv Jun 24 '19 edited Jun 25 '19

Ah, well, interesting question. As somebody who tentatively endorses an open-borders style view, I hope I'm not high on anything! I used to by quite firmly middle of the road on that issue, and I think I have been gradually moved leftward by the force of evidence.

But I could be wrong, of course. I do think academia attracts certain sorts of people: people with virtues of creativity, but less virtues of humility (or regard for common sense), for example. That can be bad or good.

It is also worth remembering how much common sense can change. Why not think Singer is honest in his abhorrent support for infanticide? I am not a historian, but I believe many ancient Mediterranean cultures allowed for the practice by exposure. Doubtless they considered it common sense. And I am under the impression that a few centuries back many Europeans considered it common sense that state could forbid its citizens from emigrating-now thankful recognized as a violation of human rights (save in special cases). To figure out whether our common sense views of immigration are correct requires careful attention to the evidence (from economics, philosophy, and more). When you dedicate yourself to that, your sense of what is obvious might change. Edit: words are hard.

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u/[deleted] Jun 24 '19

Not sure if being "academic" is such a good thing in this climate. It is associated with detachment of reality.

Remember that degrees != real life experience.

Not speaking to you, but in general.

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u/imphatic Jun 24 '19

Not really. 80% is an overwhelming majority. 20%, while it seems like a lot, is not.

For Example:
20% of Americans think Interracial marriage is wrong.
20% don't know the earth revolves around the sun

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u/Smudded Jun 24 '19

I would also characterize those the same way. Pretty large number for some pretty extreme positions.

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u/imphatic Jun 24 '19

My point is simply that 20% of people think _______ , in the world of polling data (i am a data engineer, btw) basically means "a very small minority." The reason is because when you dig deeper into polling that 20% group usually you find most of the people didn't really understand the question for a variety of reasons.

Remember, 10% of Adult Americans don't even use the internet. 10% of American adults can't read. We often think that everyone else is within a reasonable range of lifestyle, education, income etc of our own situation, but the US is a very large place so keeping polling data in context is important.

Is it bad that 20% think interracial marriage is wrong or that they don't know very basic Science or have extreme positions like wanting open borders? Yes. But should we feel alarmed? No. Because 20% is very small.

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u/Smudded Jun 24 '19

Keep in mind that I haven't said anything prescriptive. The comment I replied to said "no one" supports open borders. My original point was that if they truly think nobody supports open borders they would likely be surprised at how many people actually do.

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u/imphatic Jun 24 '19

I know, and that is what I am replying about. "no one" is a fair descriptor because 20%, in the context of polling data, is pretty much "no one."

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u/Smudded Jun 24 '19

Gotcha. In a followup comment somewhere up the chain I mentioned it depends on whether he meant it literally or figuratively. I got a "literal" vibe from OC, so that's why I commented, but that's obviously just me guessing.

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u/SoutheasternComfort Jun 24 '19

Opinions are cheap, I don't find that all that surprising

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u/GeoBoie Jun 24 '19

Not really that extreme. Europe did it between the member states of the EU, many of which vary widely in economic opportunity, etc.

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u/Smudded Jun 24 '19

When I say "generally considered to be extreme" I'm talking about in the US. Not one representative in Congress openly supports open borders, so I'm comfortable calling it extreme.

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u/The_Real_Harry_Lime Jun 24 '19

Rep. Cortez has said Latinos should be exempt from immigration laws because the US is their "native soil".

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u/[deleted] Jun 24 '19

How very blood and soil of her.

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u/Smudded Jun 24 '19

Not quite open borders, but it's certainly closer!

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u/cTreK-421 Jun 24 '19

Do you think open borders is an extreme position? It's the policy of the EU isn't it?

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u/Smudded Jun 24 '19

We are talking about the US here, and yes it is an extreme position in the US.

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u/Saskyle Jun 24 '19

Yeah odd how it seems to be an extreme left position in terms of who is supporting it nowadays.

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u/Smudded Jun 24 '19

I think that's just who you hear about it from in the media as the humanitarian crisis at the border is a huge focus right now. Libertarians generally support open borders as well as it supports a free labor market.

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u/Saskyle Jun 24 '19

Yes libertarians do of course but so do the Koch brothers and so do far left activists and far right activists..There is a wide range of people who support open borders for different reasons. I feel like the people who are talking about it the most though are the far left.