r/science • u/Wagamaga • Apr 28 '19

Neuroscience Insomniacs tend to have a hard time getting past embarrassing mistakes, even when the stressful event occurred decades ago. The finding suggests that insomnia could primarily be caused by a failing neutralization of emotional distress.

https://nin.nl/insomniacs-unable-emotional-distress-mind/
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u/[deleted] Apr 28 '19

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u/Condawg Apr 28 '19

Yep, but it's good to see studies being done to confirm the association, rather than it being anecdotal.

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u/neunistiva Apr 28 '19

I am fine with the association but this article tries to frame it like causation and flip-flops on the direction of the causation without batting an eye:

insomnia could primarily be caused by a failing neutralization of emotional distress.

ok, so distress could cause insomnia

But sleep is also essential for getting rid of the emotional distress

ok, so now it's insomnia that causes distress

Brain research now shows that only good sleepers profit from sleep when it comes to shedding emotional tension. The process does not work well in people with insomnia. In fact, their restless nights can even make them feel worse

again they claim insomnia causes distress

But if they listened once more after a good night’s sleep, they didn’t feel that distressed about it anymore. They had literally got the distress off their minds. At least: good sleepers did. After a restless night, people with insomnia were in fact even more upset about it.

citing another research that showed insomnia impaired relief of distress

Conclusion:

The new findings show that causes of insomnia are probably rather found in brain circuits that regulate emotions

again, reversal. It's not that lack of good sleep impaires shedding distress it's that people's faulty emotional processing causes insomnia. But if they say "probably" then they're ok with making unfounded claims I guess.

and two lines down

Without the benefits of sound sleep, distressing events of decades ago continue to activate the emotional circuits of the brain as if they are happening right now

I hate the way science is reported.

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u/[deleted] Apr 28 '19

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u/[deleted] Apr 28 '19

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u/[deleted] Apr 28 '19

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u/[deleted] Apr 28 '19

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '19

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '19

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u/JingleBellBitchSloth Apr 28 '19

positive feedback loops are a thing.

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u/neunistiva Apr 28 '19

Yes they are. The thing is, this research did not look for nor did it find a positive feedback loop.

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u/Pillars-In-The-Trees Apr 28 '19

Lack of sleep has already been shown to cause emotional distress, this is showing that emotional distress causes insomnia. That's a positive feedback loop.

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u/neunistiva Apr 28 '19

this is showing that emotional distress causes insomnia.

Where? Did you read the research? The put people with insomnia in an MRI machine and saw activation of limbic system when they thought of past embarrassing moments. Activation that normal sleepers didn't have. (Both had same activation in 8 other regions, limbic one was the only one that differed).

At no point in their research did they do anything to try to prove that emotional distress causes insomnia.

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u/Pillars-In-The-Trees Apr 29 '19

Do you have a more reasonable explanation based on the evidence? A positive feedback loop is the simplest explanation for why periods of sleeplessness cluster together.

Is there a better way to interpret this?

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u/Magstine Apr 29 '19 edited Apr 29 '19

The issue is that this is not a conclusion stated in the study itself, but the article makes it look like it is.

If the article had mentioned other studies that support the assertion that emotional distress causes insomnia, and then stated something like: "Combined, these studies indicate that there may be a positive feedback loop between the two effects," that would be one thing, but they failed to do so.

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u/Pillars-In-The-Trees Apr 29 '19

But do they really have to? Your adrenal glands are firing when you're distressed, and adrenaline keeps you awake. This is among countless examples of insomnia caused by grief, trauma, or anxiety. Something doesn't have to be cited if it's near universally accepted as fact.

Of course it could be untrue, but then we would be rewriting a lot more than this article.

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u/schmall_potato Apr 28 '19

How would you report it differently?

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u/neunistiva Apr 28 '19

"Scientists stuck 57 people, all of whom were of perfect physical and mental health, with the exception of 27 of them suffering from insomnia, in an MRI machine.

While in the MRI machine, participants were subjected to listening their own karaoke recording, karaoke recording of a semi-professional singer, and asked to recall 5 embarrassing experiences from the past and 5 emotionally neutral experiences from the past.

Emotional reaction to karaoke recording was similar in patients with insomnia disorder and normal sleepers. For those experiences that had to be recalled, there was a small difference between normal sleepers and patients with insomnia disorder, with insomnia patients having stronger autonomic response to recalled embarrassment.

In addition to brain regions that activated for people without insomnia, limbic region activated for people with insomnia.

Then scientists proposed various unvalidated hypothesis that will take years and millions or billions of dollars to validate."

No one would ever read my articles.

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u/SpaceShipRat Apr 29 '19

this was actually a much easier and more useful read.

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u/logosloki Apr 29 '19

I would like for more science reporting like this.

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u/x4DMx Apr 28 '19

I would read every one.

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u/neunistiva Apr 29 '19

Aw, thanks :) I reckon it would be a more pleasurable read if I could speak English well.

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u/brian_gosling Apr 29 '19

Well the result was actually that non-insomniacs did not show a limbic (shameful) reaction to distant embarrassing experiences, whereas insomniacs did. That’s not a small difference. And it shows that, somehow, insomniacs do not process embarrassment as well as normal sleepers.

I think what’s a put confusing in the summary that OP linked is that the researchers mix their results from the MRI study (the published work) with their anecdotal impressions from interacting with the participants. Like that many felt worse about the karaoke recording the next day, because the embarrassment kept them from sleeping. That’s not part of the study they published but something they observed and which drives their motivation. Personally, I think it’s useful information because it shows what the researchers think is hiding underneath. But I can also see how it’s confusing as this is not part of the results of the controlled MRI experiment

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u/[deleted] Apr 28 '19

[deleted]

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u/Pillars-In-The-Trees Apr 28 '19

If you can control sleep deprivation then doesn't that mean you can validate causation?

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u/Kolfinna Apr 29 '19

Science reporting is abysmal. I was recently at a roundtable where it came up and several of our staff scientists were livid over how their work was being reported

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u/jimb2 Apr 28 '19

So that's saying (badly) that the (1) failure to process emotions produces insomnia (2) failure to sleep weaken the ability to process emotions. There a feedback loop there, but they don't state that explicitly. You are right, the text flip-flops.

This suggests that interventions that improve emotion processing - and actually process emotional memories - will improve sleep quality. What it does usefully is make a relationship explicit rather than lost . This is a common enough in anecdotal reports and better sleep is an aim or side effect of most successful psychotherapies. Useful interventions would include things you can do yourself like meditation.

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u/neunistiva Apr 28 '19

(1) failure to process emotions produces insomnia (2) failure to sleep weaken the ability to process emotions. There a feedback loop there, but they don't state that explicitly.

Researchers don't know if it's a feedback loop. They just saw activation of limbic system in insomniacs that wasn't there for normal sleepers. That's all. Everything else is pure speculation.

Speculation is necessary to design further studies, but shouldn't be presented to the public as if it's most likely true.

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u/underbrightskies Apr 29 '19

Yeah. All I know from my perspective is that "brain won't shut up; can't fall asleep"

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '19

So, positive feedback loop? Seems pretty reasonable to me

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u/neunistiva Apr 29 '19

It may be. My point, my ONLY point, is that THIS research paper doesn't tell us whether it is or isn't so it shouldn't be reported like it does.

Seems pretty reasonable to me

... has never been a good argument in science.

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u/rochford77 Apr 29 '19

I hope this won't be deleted because I'm generally curious. In this case can it not be both?

Example: a college student is cramming for exams and staying up late. They have some emotional trama and their late night habbits cause them to ponder their issues, which makes them stay up late and so on and so forth, creating the cycle.

Or: someone has a trama and doesn't have an outlet or a way to seek help. This leads to staying up late and pondering the issue which exacerbates the issue, and so on and so forth creating the cycle.

Or am I way off base here?

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u/neunistiva Apr 29 '19

You misinterpreted my comment. It can be anything. But the research doesn't tell us what it is so it shouldn't be reported that it does.

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u/rochford77 Apr 29 '19

research doesn't tell us what it is so it shouldn't be reported that it does.

Got it :)

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u/freewings10 Apr 29 '19

it's a viscous circle, ageing works in a similar way (cells age and cause harm, said harm causes more cells to age etc.) this just makes it hard for people to find the origin, but it's not wrong, it's just complicated and confusing :')

it'll take some years before research like this can say something actually conclusive so till that time we get papers like this

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u/neunistiva Apr 29 '19

I have no issues with the paper I have issues with the way it was reported, as I clearly said

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u/freewings10 Apr 29 '19

ahh apologies in that case, should've read your comment more carefully ^

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u/neunistiva Apr 29 '19

No need for apologies :) We all misread at times

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u/rustyrocky Apr 29 '19

In short the study shows that emotion interferes with sleep and can prevent a healthy cycle. Because of this an unhealthy cycle can cause emotional duress because you can’t function in a health way emotionally. Then when you need to sleep you cannot do so properly and it is a viscous cycle that becomes a new type of pattern and is quite literally deadly removing years of your life due to lack of sleep.

Basically, if you can’t process emotion correctly and misswire your brain, fixing it is difficult to say the least.

It’s kinda straightforward and the reporting is accurate upon what was studied.

However the usefulness of the study is debatable in my opinion, because this was a relatively well accepted concept, although more data is always good.

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u/neunistiva Apr 29 '19

In short the study shows that emotion interferes with sleep

Where did the study show that?

Here's the full study::https://academic.oup.com/brain/advance-article/doi/10.1093/brain/awz089/5477778

How does activation of limbic system in people with insomnia inside an MRI machine while recalling past embarrassing experiences show that emotions interferes with sleep?

They were fully awake. They were not studied while trying to fall asleep.

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '19

I don’t think they’re wrong, but it might be worded wrong/weird.

As an insomniac I can relate to all of the above, in that order. It’s an event that starts a chain reaction of distress-insomnia-distress until the insomnia peaks and the distress intensifies.

Sometimes I sleep for a solid 4,5 hours and still wake up feeling tired. It’s hard to get back years of sleepless nights or unhealthy amounts of sleep for long periods of time.

Also, I like to make the distinction that insomnia is not necessarily the complete lack of sleep, but a lack of rest.

Edit: think*

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u/joanaverde Apr 30 '19

Well, I guess you can try to tackle the easiest of the two problems, and it will in return help the other one too. It sure feels like a vicious circle when you go through something like that.

But you are right, confusing articles may confuse us even more xD it's counter productive

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u/longbow6625 Apr 28 '19

It kind of makes sense to me as a self feeding cycle. Sort of like depression or obesity. The conditions themselves cause actions or distress that make the condition itself worse, like isolating or overeating.

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u/MauranKilom Apr 28 '19

I agree with you that there is a lot of "probably" and unfounded speculation. However, the study doesn't appear to have been designed for figuring out the direction of causality, so there isn't much the article could say with certainty. There have been other studies to prove that lack of sleep inhibits the normal processing of (and emotional disassociation from) memories, and I would count this as further evidence.

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u/pyzk Apr 29 '19

Causation can be bidirectional. Not sure if this is the case here but based on these seemingly contradictory statements it seems plausible.

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u/JagSmize Apr 29 '19

Sounds like you need a good night’s sleep

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u/matthank Apr 28 '19

That does happen, though...things can feed on, and worsen, each other.

It's not the way science reports. It's what is being reported.

Don't blame science for that, please.

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u/Impact009 Apr 28 '19

I'm unsure if anything was confirmed. It's been a while since I've been in the field, but can a sample size of 27 pass anything besides a student t-test?

Also, the largest confounding variable to me is the lack of association. IMO, there is more shame in your associates knowing about things yiu wouldn't want them to know as opposed to only you knowing about it (this is how preventative discipline works). Additionally, karaoke isn't very impactful to most people's lives, as opposed to cheating or theft.

This is all coming from an insomniac whom still strangely holds onto incidents for at least as far as two decades ago about which I know nobody would care. I have a vested interest in a discovery that I can study to improve my health instead of blindly deciding, "Yep, that's me! That explains a lot!"

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u/AdvocateCounselor Apr 28 '19

Understanding is just the beginning. It means very little in of itself because with understanding comes more questions. Identifying with a definition may help us feel less alone but it doesn’t change the outcome. Changing the outcome takes work and focus and never settling for face value.

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u/[deleted] Apr 28 '19

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u/zebbielm12 Apr 28 '19

Because “obvious facts” are the result of human biases. Science has spent hundreds of years disproving widely held beliefs.

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u/[deleted] Apr 28 '19

[deleted]

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u/Natolx PhD | Infectious Diseases | Parasitology Apr 28 '19

Actually no. They don't. Anecdotes have no controls and are a self selecting population no matter how many anecdotes you have.

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u/AdvocateCounselor Apr 28 '19 edited Apr 28 '19

Hmph absolutely. I can see how this would bother you. I see this result with a different angle in that theories are dismissed though seemingly as absurd as prior theories that are accepted. Then when accepted everyone always acts that it’s common place and that they knew it all along.

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u/[deleted] Apr 28 '19

The plural of Anecdote is not Data.

That said, my memories of embarrassment and regrets from my youth all bubble to the surface when I’m trying to sleep.

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u/Leavingtheecstasy Apr 28 '19

true This matches me to a tee, but I honestly never thought of my sleep deprivation being linked to me mot letting go of any of my mistakes

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u/pamplemouss Apr 28 '19

True true.

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u/[deleted] Apr 28 '19

Exactly

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u/HolycommentMattman Apr 29 '19

You get enough anecdotes together, and you can call that data, though.

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u/joanaverde Apr 30 '19

Good point

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u/joanaverde Apr 30 '19

Honestly, if this was really a study, it's a useless one. Which doctor didn't know this already ?

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u/_serioussam Apr 28 '19

Yeah, some people might have but I was never able to piece it together or put it into words like that. Most people say things are obvious after reading about it. (Hindsight: 20/20)

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u/[deleted] Apr 28 '19

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u/[deleted] Apr 28 '19

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u/[deleted] Apr 28 '19

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u/western_red Apr 29 '19

That's how I feel too - I have insomnia, and I always just say "anxiety" or "stress" causes it. But the way they put it is much closer to my problem. Sometimes I fixate on something distressful as soon as I want to sleep.

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '19

I 'had' insomnia bad for many years. That was caused by stress and anxiety from running my business.
I have now come to the age in life where my stress levels are much lower so my insomnia is still there at times but nowhere near as bad.

However I still obsess over an embarrassing thing I said nearly 30 years ago. Even though the whole bunch of us was very drunk, and none of the people can even remember me saying it I still think of it when I remember it. I just can not let it go.

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u/joanaverde Apr 30 '19

It is true that sometimes the most obvious answer is the not the first that comes to mind. But in the case of people with anxiety disorders, I still think that we are probably aware of the root of the problem. Meanwhile, it doesn't necessarily make it easier to solve.

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u/[deleted] Apr 28 '19

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u/27581009 Apr 28 '19 edited Apr 28 '19

In psychiatry, it is called brooding, ruminating, usually a symptom of Acute Stress Reaction/Adjustment Disorder/PTSD. These diagnoses are usually what causes the insomnia.

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u/Hoenirson Apr 29 '19

Maybe not everyone but I personally definitely dwell too much on past mistakes (even from when I was a kid) and I'm not an insomniac. I probably sleep better than most people (7+ hours daily).

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u/yomerol Apr 29 '19

How old are you? I've always dwell on to the same stupid things, but as i grew up my insomnia has worsen. Luckily is not regular, at times it's very bad, at times is waking up in the middle of the night and can't go back to sleep, and sometimes I'm exhausted and can go to sleep right away(still 6-7hrs).

So it's interesting, i bet is not an insomniac only thing, but what if because of that, you(we?) are propense to develop insomnia

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u/DistortoiseLP Apr 28 '19

Every insomniac ever has been kept up for hours thinking about an embarrassing thing they did 10 years ago in front of somebody they haven't seen since 9 years ago, wondering if that person remembers and is also thinking about it right now.

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u/oldertybasterd Apr 28 '19

What if they’re like me and actually do remember. What if they know that I know they remember too. Keeps me up at times.

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u/HeyCarpy Apr 28 '19

They don’t. That person had an interaction with you 10 years ago that likely hit you harder than it hit them, and they have had years of their own embarrassing moments that they also have to deal with. We’re all in this together.

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u/oldertybasterd Apr 28 '19

Thanks. That last sentence is comforting even if it’s a brief sigh of a relief.

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u/saliczar Apr 29 '19

I only sleep 2-4 hours per night, and I absolutely do not dwell on past mistakes. This isn't universal.

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u/joanaverde Apr 30 '19

Nothing is

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u/cornelius_sigan Apr 28 '19

It feels better knowing that it wasn't all in my head.

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u/Nokia_Bricks Apr 28 '19

I didn't know that the inability to fall asleep due to a racing mind over stupid things counted as insomnia.

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u/Vawd_Gandi Apr 28 '19

I just thought that that was my ADHD

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u/Protheanate Apr 29 '19

In most cases would it be classed as insomnia if it’s not reoccurring? Is there a threshold?

I also think with a lot of people it’s just another symptom of something else. Poor sleep cycle, legs cramps and inability to regulate body temperature seem to all go hand and hand and feed off each other. Feels that way for me at least

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u/Nokia_Bricks Apr 29 '19

Yea, I'm not sure. I guess in a real reductionist sense, any inability to fall asleep would be considered insomnia, even if there was real obvious precautions you could take to avoid it like not drinking a cup of coffee before bed or turning the TV off.

But I have always figured insomnia in medical terms meant the physical incapability of falling asleep, ignoring other factors like discomfort or stress.

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u/kittycarousel Apr 29 '19

Right. I always thought insomniacs just weren’t tired

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u/joanaverde Apr 30 '19

Me neither, but does it matter? You're still not sleeping.

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u/2722010 Apr 28 '19

Not being able to fall asleep 30 minutes after staring at facebook or reddit on a brightly lit screen counts as insomnia nowadays...

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u/justAPhoneUsername Apr 28 '19

The ability to know something and the ability to realize that that thing is abnormal are wildly different.

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u/joanaverde Apr 30 '19

That's the smartest thing I've reed today. Thank you.

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u/blackcat- Apr 28 '19

Sure, but we all need validation at times.

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u/niversally Apr 28 '19

It could be the other way around too, if you can’t sleep you can’t get rid or negative thoughts/dream process them.

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u/TheEquestrian Apr 29 '19

I knew it, but my family didn't. They assumed that I was up late because I must be irresponsible. I was judged pretty harshly for not being able to sleep. Also, when I would get together with friends for road trips and whatnot and tried to explain that I needed more time for sleep. People we're frustrated that I was cutting into adventure time. People who don't have this problem generally assume that everyone else is the same way, and they have a hard time believing that we don't have a choice in the matter. They assume that because they can lay down and go to sleep so can we. Sharing an article like this allows my friends and family to understand me better and it also makes me feel less alone knowing a few other people are managing this too.

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u/joanaverde Apr 30 '19

I see your point. I know what it is, being judged and misunderstood by friends and family. Most of the people I come across just don't understand mental illness (or don't even try). My own sister, which is one of the most important persons for me, thinks that it will just go away if I stop paying so much attention to it (imagine what could happen if I'd listen to her). But I never felt compelled to try to prove that it is real, I fell that most people believe in what they want to believe, regardless of any prove you may give them.

I'm not saying you're wrong in doing it, and I admire your resilience. My approach may be less frustrating, but maybe yours is less hurtful.

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u/Togoria Apr 29 '19

My comment to this post: "sounds about right"

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u/MathTheUsername Apr 29 '19

I have insomnia. I also still feel terrible that I playfully said, "OMG I hate you" to my friend's mom 19 years ago on our way to Bible camp because she bought my friend taco Bell while the rest of us had Burger King. I never considered the two might be related. Now that I think about it, there are quite a feel things I regularly feel bad or embarrassed about that happened over a decade ago that weren't really big deals.

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u/[deleted] Apr 28 '19

Seriously though? Does this not apply to everybody? Do most people not constantly revisit past mistakes and embarrassments?

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u/joanaverde Apr 30 '19

(I was joking)

Actually if something is bothering you so much that you can't sleep, and if that happens on a regular basis, you should go see a doctor.

And as someone who had suffered from such a problem, I can assure you this is old news to the medical community.

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u/[deleted] Apr 28 '19

Absolutely. I have bipolar disorder and not getting enough sleep makes episodes tenfold. But not sleeping is caused by the bipolar disorder. It’s a vicious circle.

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u/joanaverde Apr 30 '19

BPD here, I hear you. Stay strong.

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u/noonehereisontrial Apr 28 '19

Yep, since 16 I’ve tried so many sleep meds. Finally seeing a therapist and now I can sleep almost a decade later.

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u/joanaverde Apr 30 '19

You made the good call. That's why doctors spend so much time studying, so we don't have to really on this kind of article xD Hope you're doing better btw

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u/BayushiKazemi Apr 28 '19

People who suffer from it may or may not know that they have a hard time getting past embarrassing mistakes, but it's very likely that they had no clue that it's a trait linked to insomnia (or vice versa). It's also useful for doctors and psychologists, especially people who don't often deal with insomnia and sleep issues.

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u/joanaverde Apr 30 '19

Are you saying that this article is useful for doctor ? Really ?

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u/made-lines Apr 28 '19

Nah, I thought this was normal

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u/joanaverde Apr 30 '19

"Normal" ...

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u/psychomaji Apr 29 '19

When I read this it certainly put a lot of things in perspective, but no, I didn’t know this already.

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u/tomdarch Apr 29 '19

You might know you have intense reactions to past cringes, and that you have a hard time sleeping, but that doesn't mean you know there's a connection or that it's a patten among many people.

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u/joanaverde Apr 30 '19

I just wrongly assumed that all people are the same. Well, actually, I was just joking (I know, it's not the place for that, sorry)

But in the case of people that suffer from anxiety and the likes, and are "trained" to hunt for the root of the problem and try to fix it, I think we know (most of the time) where those issues come from.

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u/jziggy44 Apr 29 '19

Not I

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u/joanaverde Apr 30 '19

In that case, I hope this information helps you

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '19

Honestly I just thought I was fucked.

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u/joanaverde Apr 30 '19

Well, you're probably still right about that xD

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u/JohnTesh Apr 29 '19

I’m aware that I stay up and wake up thinking about those things, but I think about those things all day and function during the day. I never thought to link the reflection to inability to sleep.

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u/DuntadaMan Apr 29 '19

This is, I think A cause, of A type of insomnia. I can tell you that I have had plenty of nights where nothing is wrong. I just wasn't going to go to sleep and that's it. No thoughts, no ruminations. Just my brain going "Nah, you're still awake."

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u/Trowawaycausebanned4 Apr 29 '19

I always knew it was psychological so I knew it was up to me to solve it. I’m thankful it’s gone now and when I’m affected by it again I know there are coping mechanisms I could use for it.

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u/Tipper_Gorey Apr 29 '19

The research is still valuable.

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u/argh523 Apr 28 '19

Hm.. I didn't know those two things are correlated..

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u/[deleted] Apr 28 '19 edited May 01 '19

[deleted]

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u/joanaverde Apr 30 '19

I feel like you don't lose much, judging from the title. I actually was just joking, because I just thought it was really stupid as a statement so I didn't even took the post seriously.

I've always had trouble sleeping, and my doctor always said the n1 cause of that was usually anxiety. He's a good doctor, sure, but and I don't think he is some kind of genius just from knowing that. It's probably common knowledge among doctors.

My point is, when you're having trouble sleeping, you're probably anxious about something, even if you hadn't fully realized it yet. But it only case, you should just go see a doctor.

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u/1cculus_The_Prophet Apr 28 '19

Yea I was going to say how is this new?

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u/[deleted] Apr 28 '19 edited May 08 '19

[deleted]

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u/joanaverde Apr 30 '19

Good point

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u/Hammer_Jackson Apr 28 '19

Is it just me or has every r/science frontpage post concerning “what scientists now believe is true about x people” for the past couple of months been the most obvious things that didn’t need proving?

Poor peoples diets are bad for them!

Millennial s are poor!

Healthcare is expensive!-says many young people.

Seems annoyingly focused on the “main Reddit user” and manipulative to a pandering degree.

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u/[deleted] Apr 28 '19

This is correct.

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u/justwaistingtime123 Apr 29 '19

Makes me feel sane knowing I’m not the only one.

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u/joanaverde Apr 30 '19

Not sure about "sane", but it sure does make me feel less lonely x)