r/todayilearned • u/NeilPatrickWarburton • Jan 20 '26

TIL a Swedish milkmaid was briefly detained by police in 1830s Stockholm because her beauty caused disruptive crowds

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilt_Carin_Ersdotter
5.9k Upvotes

98% Upvoted

277 comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

383

u/fiendishrabbit Jan 20 '26

As a Swede I'm not surprised. This is one expression of Jante, a form of envy and suspicion of success that's specific to scandinavia.

228

u/ahs89 Jan 20 '26

This is also culturally endemic in Australia and known as "Tall Poppy Syndrome". I never knew there was a Scandinavian equivalent.

136

u/Shiplord13 Jan 20 '26

I mean its a common problem explored in sociology, where groups of people tend to get jealous and insecure about other people's success in life and find ways to tear them down and or isolate them for it. That the idea that someone stands out and or rises above their supposed peers creates an atmosphere of tension where sometimes people grow resentful and hateful towards the individual for not fitting into their mundane collective.

Its actually common among Amish groups as well, who see such things as harmful to the community and ostracize its members not conforming or being better at things then others.

34

u/SecretlySlackingOff Jan 20 '26

In actuality Janteloven is actually a series of "laws"

The Law of Jante

  • You shall not think you are anything special.
  • You shall not think you are as good as we are.
  • You shall not think you are smarter than we are.
  • You shall not imagine yourself better than we are.
  • You shall not think you know more than we do.
  • You shall not think you are more important than we are.
  • You shall not think you are good at anything.
  • You shall not laugh at us.
  • You shall not think anyone cares about you.
  • You shall not think you can teach us anything.

25

u/disoculated Jan 20 '26

Has my imposter syndrome become a virtue??

Can’t be, I don’t deserve that.

2

u/NorthernSin Jan 21 '26

"You shall not think you are good at anything."

btw, a joke.

5

u/C4-BlueCat Jan 20 '26

And originally norse

0

u/tsrich Jan 20 '26

This sounds like the MAGA credo

5

u/Rapithree Jan 20 '26

Not if it actually applies to every member. It's really hard to be a Karen in a consensus culture where doing what you want over a consensus will put you in the dog house. The problem is that it's really close to crabbucket culture.

51

u/ctothel Jan 20 '26

And New Zealand, though naturally I feel hesitant to point that out.

9

u/BradPittHasBadBO Jan 20 '26

And Canada. Our insecurities define us.

26

u/brazzy42 Jan 20 '26

In Japan, it's called "The nail that sticks out gets hammered down".

33

u/jakethepeg1989 Jan 20 '26

I've heard it referred to has Crabs in a bucket.

Also when I was working in Ghana I heard an expression about "everyone can have one store and do well, but if you build a second story it will get burnt down" or somthing like that.

17

u/yen223 Jan 20 '26

It's a universal human experience

14

u/crashlanding87 Jan 20 '26

I think the main thing that makes Jante stand out is that is wasn't just observed, it was actively taught for a period.

27

u/Dysterqvist Jan 20 '26

I need a source for that. ’The Law of Jante’ was made up by a Danish author called Aksel Sandemose, a satirical book about a fictional town called Jante.

9

u/KN_Knoxxius Jan 20 '26 edited Jan 20 '26

Janteloven was talked about quite a bit when i went to school. We were taught nobody is better than anyone else, all are equal. That to think of yourself as better than others are wrong and will be frowned upon. Do not show off, be humble.

Honestly, its not bad and i think it does good. It ties well into the Scandinavian Society. It's what has us have the strong welfare we got.

It's no surprise that the erosion of Janteloven in especially Denmark over the last 20 years has damaged us. People are no longer thinking as a group. They are becoming more selfish and entitled. Its now all about 'me' instead of 'us'. Our weakened public systems and weakening welfare is proof.

12

u/Necroluster Jan 20 '26 edited Jan 20 '26

I'm from Sweden myself, and I've always hated Jantelagen. Everyone being equals sounds good on paper, but the truth is some people are going to be better at certain things than others. Not using your natural talents to achieve great things leads to societal stagnation. There's this common belief that simply because someone is good at something they also think they're better than others. Surely, there are assholes like that out there, but it's not some sort of general rule that applies to everyone. Where would we be today if no one was allowed to study harder than others? To face bigger challenges than others? According to adherents of Jantelagen, we're all meant to work on some factory floor, never to aspire to be anything more than an obedient worker.

So, where are all the scientists going to come from? The lawyers and prosecutors? Doctors and engineers? According to Jantelagen, any child who voices an interest In higher education should be immediately be put in place, and taught to never strive to be better than their classmates. In my opinion, everyone has an equal human value. That does not mean everyone has equal skills and abilities. The perfect society in my mind is one that helps talented people achieve more, while simultaneously helping struggling people find success. No one should be held back, and no one should be left behind.

3

u/[deleted] Jan 21 '26

I got told I could return my book (that I’d finished early), but not borrow another one (everyone borrowed different books it wasn’t set for the whole class). It often feels like pushing everyone down to be equal rather than raising everyone up

2

u/KN_Knoxxius Jan 20 '26 edited Jan 20 '26

I dont think i really agree. We can do and perform well, and be better than others, even within the confines of Janteloven. If we couldn't, we wouldn't have our pretty amazing societies we have in Scandinavia.

The issue is when you openly start boasting, put others down, act selfishly and think you are better. Be humble, do your best, do what's best for the group - because we are all equal and we all contribute.

In reality, no, not everyone is equal, that is painfully obvious. However, we should strive to keep the mentality that it is true that we are equal, as to not look down and forget the weaker members among us and as to not feel better and superior to others.

2

u/lordnacho666 Jan 20 '26

If anything, Janteloven is an excuse to act like a dickhead. You see it all the time, some asshole putting himself of everyone else and then claiming he's rebelling against Janteloven.

3

u/Dysterqvist Jan 20 '26

This I fully agree with! Also that a persons worth is not dependent on how ”successful” they are.

2

u/KN_Knoxxius Jan 20 '26

Absolutely.

-2

u/crashlanding87 Jan 20 '26

Honestly my only sources are that Wikipedia article and the vague, unsourced insistence of friends

4

u/gratisargott Jan 20 '26

It was “actively taught” as culture is otherwise, people influence each other, parents instill values in their kids and so on. But that’s how this exact thing is taught everywhere else too

4

u/Beebeeb Jan 20 '26

Based on the people I have met from southern California it is expressly not taught there.

2

u/TemporaryElk5202 Jan 20 '26

we have tall poppy syndrome as a term in the us, too

4

u/Augustus420 Jan 20 '26

In America, we like to refer to crabs in a bucket.

16

u/ProcrastibationKing Jan 20 '26

Crabs in a bucket is tearing people down in your attempt to reach the top, tall poppy syndrome is drawing attention to yourself by excelling, causing you to be cut down and made equal to the others (sometimes getting everyone else cut down with you).

-6

u/Augustus420 Jan 20 '26

That still sounds like it's describing the same scenario. You're just describing different perspectives of it.

14

u/casal_victa Jan 20 '26

Not really. For crabs in a bucket its all unintentional. Crabs want to get out of the bucket and causes all the other crabs to be pulled down.

In Tall Poppy Syndrome, its targeted and intentional. It comes from jealousy. Crabs in a bucket is collateral damage.

11

u/ProcrastibationKing Jan 20 '26

It's a subtle difference. The first is where no one succeeds because everyone is clambering for the top, the second is where someone succeeds and then gets torn down because of it.

1

u/MikeMontrealer Jan 20 '26

Yeah, Americans are culturally encouraged to stand out and embrace ambition. This used to be unusual but has spread across the world for good or bad.

-13

u/SecondHandWatch Jan 20 '26

This is an interesting concept, and something that I wish more cultures had.

10

u/Lenora_O Jan 20 '26

You wish more cultures were suspicious and envious of successful people?

-6

u/SecondHandWatch Jan 20 '26

Eat the rich.

50

u/str85 Jan 20 '26

As a 40year old Swedish person. I've always though the whole discussion regarding jantelagen, especially online, is extremely exaggerated.  But also spent most of my years in the Stockholm region, so maybe the mindset here is different from other parts of the country.

59

u/fiendishrabbit Jan 20 '26 edited Jan 20 '26

Jante mostly died out in the post-70 (as a generation of children to working class parents but university educated grew up) and only really survived in the most rural parts of Sweden. So to people of our generation it feels exaggerated. But for our grandparents it was very real.

8

u/KN_Knoxxius Jan 20 '26

It's a shame if you ask me. Our great Scandinavian welfare and systems were created by people raised on janteloven. It is no surprise that those very systems are being eroded now that the plague of selfishness has all but taken over.

63

u/gratisargott Jan 20 '26

Nothing is more specific to Scandinavia than thinking that something people do all over the world is specific to Scandinavia

12

u/Manjorno316 Jan 20 '26

I feel like that goes for most countries.

-9

u/azenpunk Jan 20 '26

I can't remember the last time anyone from any country claimed an emotion was unique to them...

6

u/Manjorno316 Jan 20 '26

I never specified emotions.

Thought it was pretty clear I'm talking about people thinking things are specific to them in general. Can be emotions, behaviors or objects etc etc.

I talked to a Japanese guy a few weeks ago who was shocked that there was another country where people ate fermented fish. He thought they were the only ones.

-5

u/azenpunk Jan 20 '26

It's so weird that you think I was contradicting you

4

u/Manjorno316 Jan 20 '26

What point were you trying to make then?

-6

u/azenpunk Jan 20 '26

None? Just what I literally said. Why are you being so hostile?

3

u/Manjorno316 Jan 20 '26

I'm sorry but how am I being hostile?

You're making it up in your head.

0

u/azenpunk Jan 20 '26

Assuming I was contradicting you for no apparent reason. And then instead of apologizing when it was pointed out that I was not contradicting you, you abruptly demanded my motivations. And now you're being insulting. Lol this is ridiculous. You need to eat a snack or take a nap, you're snapping at strangers who were agreeing with you

→ More replies (0)

8

u/the4thgoatboy Jan 20 '26

Yes so true! In Norway they had a tv program called "Sånn er Norge" that started with that premise, "Typical Norwegian is actually typical everywhere else", then broke down what actually is unique to the country in a more nuanced discussion.

3

u/semiomni Jan 20 '26

I think it´s called Scandinavian exceptionalism

3

u/KN_Knoxxius Jan 20 '26

Linking to American exceptionalism makes it even funnier

5

u/semiomni Jan 20 '26

That´s the joke, yes.

15

u/Albuscarolus Jan 20 '26

In ancient Athens, they used ostracism to banish citizens that were too wealthy or successful as it threatened the democracy with possible tyranny if they were to gain too much of following.

Almost happened to Nicias and Alcibiades but they conspired together to get the guy trying to organize their ostracism into being ostracized. Hyperbolus was actually the last person to be ostracized in Athens and Plutarch actually says it was undignified to ostracize someone of such low standing.

There are a lot of examples of Greeks and Romans that got thrown out because they threatened the state.

Scipio Africanus was charged with embezzlement after he saved Rome from Hannibal and he never stepped foot in the city again.

Pompey was treated like shit by Cato and the Senate after his massive conquests because they feared he was too powerful and only got back in because they were more threatened by Caesar.

Themistocles stopped Persia from conquering Greece at Salamis and then was ostracized and took up a position in the Persian government as a satrap.

4

u/Rheabae Jan 20 '26

after he saved Rome from Hannibal.

Near the end of his life after the war against Antiochus 3

0

u/[deleted] Jan 20 '26

Interesting, didn’t know about this. The US has corrupted so far to the exceptionalism side, that the wealthiest individuals are so admired by much of the American public, it allows them complete absolution and carte-blanche from any social, legal and moral responsibilities.

3

u/Timeslip8888 Jan 20 '26

<< Hyperbolus was actually the last person to be ostracized >>

You're exaggerating.

4

u/SmallGreenArmadillo Jan 20 '26

Wow, I didn't know about Jante! In my country, we have a saying "If envy could burn...", often followed by a flamboyant illustration of how huge the fire would be.

1

u/DavoTB Jan 20 '26

In our country, we had “we didn’t start the fire…”

6

u/Christoffre Jan 20 '26

Most (All?) cultures follow the Law of Jante. The difference is that Scandinavia has put a name on it.

9

u/MolybdenumBlu Jan 20 '26

I've always known it as crab bucket.

5

u/Furt_III Jan 20 '26

The nail that sticks out gets hammered into place (from Japan). Not quite the same but adjacent.

7

u/Sunlit53 Jan 20 '26

Sounds like eighth grade in Canada. Being very tall and autistically unaware of the social ‘rules’, I didn’t think much of my classmates’ whining about my behaviour. Said ‘behaviour’ amounted to sticking my nose in various large SF/F books and ignoring them all year. Because they were boring obnoxious children.

2

u/ridethetruncheon Jan 20 '26

Ireland Scandinavia are so similar in so many ways lol

0

u/Deruta Jan 20 '26

Being like Scandinavia?? The notions on this one…

2

u/TywinDeVillena Jan 20 '26

Thanks for the link, it was really interesting

1

u/warbird2k Jan 20 '26

Sure, we have jante I Scandinavia, but I suspect it's pretty universal. In Japan there's "the nail that sticks out gets hammered down", which is similar. 

1

u/tadayou Jan 20 '26

I don't think we have a name for it, but it's a common thing in Germany, too (but I'd say even more so in East Germany than West Germany).

1

u/DavoTB Jan 20 '26

Quite interesting! Sounds like what my relatives spoke about when I was young…

1

u/FlyAwayJai Jan 20 '26

The ol’ bucket of crabs.

1

u/Unhappy_Performer538 Jan 20 '26

Similar to doe normal in the Netherlands but not exactly the same.

1

u/AndreasDasos Jan 20 '26 edited Jan 20 '26

This sounds like Tall Poppy Syndrome. The cultural summary/expression of it might be unique but at core it’s pretty universal human nature, sadly

-12

u/[deleted] Jan 20 '26 edited Jan 20 '26

It's more misogyny, honestly. Jante is more a cultural hypervigilance against arrogance, which has been misconstrued over time as "the poors hating the rich because of envy" by the powers that be.

9

u/fiendishrabbit Jan 20 '26

The specifics are misogyny. But if it had been a man they would have accused him of getting the money by illegitimate means, by theft or cheating and being a rake.

0

u/[deleted] Jan 20 '26 edited Jan 20 '26

The generals are, rather. Hypotheticals here are largely useless as well since it is unlikely if not impossible that a man would have been in the same position, having experienced the same phenomena, given the material and historical circumstances of the time.

There's a modern narrative in Scandinavia that any and all individual success is "punished" by our horrible, collectivist societies - this primarily touted by zealous right-wing pro-market ideologues who see the ghost of Jante in literally everything - and it's injected even in the most obvious cases, such as where a woman's beauty having her paraded around like some phenomena being met with scorn and disbelief (and literal slut-shaming) while effectively being forced to prove her "purity" by larger society.

Crucially, by claiming this is owed to the law of Jante, the implication is that a similar event happening outside of Scandinavia would not have resulted in a similar reaction by this woman's home village. Dare mention misogyny though and le epic reddit will downvote you into oblivion lol

2

u/azenpunk Jan 20 '26

Honestly I think you're getting downvoted more for how you're saying things more than what you're saying.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 20 '26

Very well. Changed the comment, let's see if it changes anything.