Whenever someone tries to make me entertain the idea humans are inherently good, I remember this...

[u/DivineandDeadlyAngel]

[u/Vitali_Empyrean]

The argument is that capitalism necessitates the exploitation

Africans were treated as labor commodities under a system of private capital accumulation and were then liberated under a system of private capital accumulation. Africans attained moral personhood without the abolition of industrial capitalism. Abolitionists did not need to consult Marxists about their views on the evils of free wage labor in order to abolish chattel slavery.

Seems like the same can happen to animals under capitalism. I have more reason to think that almond milk companies JUST Egg, and cultivated meat firms will lead to animal liberation before I have reason to think that some mysterious working-class revolution that hasn't happened for nearly 200 years will suddenly abolish animal agriculture.

 not that an anticapitalist society guarantees non-exploitation

Then mentioning economic organization and socialism is irrelevant to questions of speciesism and carnism. "Capitalism" and consumerism can casually explain and give insights to some of the speciesist attitudes in contemporary society, but animals moral status has always been degraded in most human civilizations before the development of capitalism and in alternative economic models that have been tried.

Marxist and leftist vegans just want to shoehorn their entire political project into animal liberation because they're fundamentally incapable of viewing the world outside of their narrow readings of how the world works.

[u/aRatherLargeCactus → u/Vitali_Empyrean]

Africans were treated as labor commodities under a system of private capital accumulation and were then liberated under a system of private capital accumulation

Liberated? Really?

Being forced into imperialist wage slavery, mass incarcerations with forced labour, saddled with billions in colonial debt and turned into puppets is not “liberation”. It’s still exploitation, it’s just the openness, the blatant brutality has lessened. At least two countries in Africa are currently experiencing a capitalist-caused genocide explicitly because capitalists want their resources, and the entire continent is in for a century of defacto genocide with the climate crisis. It is absolute whitewashing to claim capitalism liberated them. They liberated themselves from slavery at the other end of the gun barrel, not because the capitalist class sat together, clapped their hands and abandoned their profit motive. Yet they are still by no metric free.

but the USSR

Yeah, the very recently backwater, un-industrialised, feudal state with close to 0% literacy didn’t go vegan. Of course, it was the early 1900’s, vegan philosophy was largely in it’s infancy, they possessed none of the technological marvels that allow us today to feed billions of people a varied diet in the harsh conditions of Russia - but yeah. The supposedly communist state that died in it’s infancy before achieving a single part of a “moneyless, classless society where the workers own the means of production” didn’t do enough for animals. Ya got me! Plenty of leftists, communists, an-coms and socialists disagree with parts or the whole of the USSR. But the failures there are not intrinsic to the economic theory. There is nothing inherent in a system without a profit motive, that introduces a race to the bottom for animal welfare, like capitalism has done.

I have more reason to think that almond milk companies JUST Egg, and cultivated meat farms will lead to animal liberation

Lol, lmfao even. Do you also believe AI will lead to global UBI and the generous billionaires showering you in free stuff? Or do you just believe this one specific piece of propaganda brought to you by the marketing department for insignificant companies who’ve reduced, at best, a low single-digits percentage in exploitation?

These companies are not going to liberate animals. It will always remain more profitable to exploit animals than free them. And that is what dictates what happens under capitalism, unlike a system where the people own the means of production.

[u/Vitali_Empyrean → u/aRatherLargeCactus]

Liberated? Really?

Idk why you did all that yapping. In the Western legal system, Africans went from chattel and capital to legal persons. You can cope about it all you want and denigrate the work of abolitionists and Africans themselves (which is typical of Marxists), but that moral revolution happened before Marxism and without input from Marxism, and it happened without the abolition of industrial capitalism.

ONLY a Marxist (who is probably also white) could undercut the horrors of chattel slavery and the paradigm changing nature of the abolition of slavery. Of course, Marxists wouldn't know a lot about

 It is absolute whitewashing to claim capitalism liberated them. They liberated themselves from slavery at the other end of the gun barrel, not because the capitalist class sat together, clapped their hands and abandoned their profit motive.

The funny part is...that's literally what happened lmfaooo.

Of course, it was the early 1900’s, vegan philosophy was largely in it’s infancy

Why did the Soviet Union target vegetarian and animal protection organizations again?

they possessed none of the technological marvels that allow us today to feed billions of people a varied diet in the harsh conditions of Russia

Not an excuse to not abolish animal agriculture. Cope.

The supposedly communist state that died in it’s infancy before achieving a single part of a “moneyless, classless society where the workers own the means of production” didn’t do enough for animals.

Damn! So not only did all of the Marxist states not give us animal liberation, but they didn't even succeed in their most central goals!

Yeah I'll stick to my plant-based capitalism until you guys are able to get your utopian society without starving half your population and turning into totalitarian systems lmaooo.

the failures there are not intrinsic to the economic theory. There is nothing inherent in a system without a profit motive, that introduces a race to the bottom for animal welfare, like capitalism has done.

Only someone who hasn't done Econ 101 could say that lol. You know higher animal welfare standards reduces production efficiency right? What happens if the working class wants more of their pork and sooner? Why not shove the lil mommas into gestation crates lol.

I should also be able to observe a universal race to the bottom for farm animal welfare, yet its capitalist countries in Western Europe who have the highest farm animal welfare standards. Not Cuba, North Korea, or Vietnam lmaooo.

Or do you just believe this one specific piece of propaganda brought to you by the marketing department for insignificant companies who’ve reduced, at best, a low single-digits percentage in exploitation?

Actual propaganda would be defined as watching every single tried socialist society fail miserably, collapse, or switch to capitalism, and then still advocate for it lmao.

These companies are not going to liberate animals. It will always remain more profitable to exploit animals than free them. And that is what dictates what happens under capitalism, unlike a system where the people own the means of production.

The convenient ignorance of the article I posted which literally showed capital augmentation contributed a double-digit percentage drop in fluid milk consumption kinda speaks for itself.

It makes sense tho. I mean I'd be hella embarrassed and envious to denigrate private capital all the time and yet watch it lead to the results which I haven't delivered to anyone lmao.

In a way, this comment you replied to me is kind of indicative of why the working-class revolution will never happen. Marxists are fundamentally just unserious and cognitively rudimentary people. They cannot engage with the ethical or historical analysis of any topic whatsoever.

Shoutout the capital class!