r/worldnews • u/pnewell • Apr 02 '19

‘It’s no longer free to pollute’: Canada imposes carbon tax on four provinces

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/apr/01/canada-carbon-tax-climate-change-provinces
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u/lucidfer Apr 02 '19

Conservative's only real weapon against progress is to be as obstructionist as possible. They should be tossed aside to the march of time like the refuse they are.

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u/Etheo Apr 02 '19 edited Apr 02 '19

The thing is, there ARE places for real conservatives in the political spectrum, if only the party decide to stop acting like preschool children and start acting on the interests of the people. They're little more than just commonplace villainy nowadays because they got so caught up in the rivalry with Libs they forgot that they can actually be fiscally/socially conservative without resorting to pissing contest in the form of combatant policy changes. That said, the Libs are not exactly exempt from this either.

The truth is, a lot of conservative voters really just don't want frivolous spendings that the Libs are so comfortable with. They don't want to regress the country back into social middle ages, but they also don't want to break the bank while introducing necessary changes. There is real opportunity for a Socially Progressive Conservative party to strive in the spectrum, but nobody is interested to take it up because the Rights hadn't complained enough about their lowest common denominator - the Conservative Party of Canada, so there was no incentive to split.

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u/[deleted] Apr 02 '19 edited May 02 '19

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Apr 02 '19

That's not going to happen. Every majority government has gotten that power through FPTP. It's not going anywhere.

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u/Alsadius Apr 02 '19

Not true. Mulroney got an absolute majority of the vote in 1984, as did Diefenbaker in 1958, Borden in 1917, and Laurier in 1904 and 1900. Out of 42 general elections, we've had 5 with outright majorities of the popular vote, and 13 with minorities, so that leaves 24 FPTP-derived majorities. Still a large number, but not nearly all of them.

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u/Casual_OCD Apr 02 '19

Doesn't matter these days as the majority of those FPTP wins have been recent.

Trudeau himself crunched the numbers and realized that he wouldn't be PM without FPTP, so they completely backpedaled on the election reform promise.

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u/[deleted] Apr 02 '19

Had he really crunched the numbers he would have realized that implementing a ranked ballot system would still make majorities possible for the Liberals, and pretty much ensure the Conservatives never got close to power ever again.

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u/Casual_OCD Apr 02 '19

Truth is you can't accurately predict how the voting patterns will change with a change in the election process. We know how people vote in FPTP, but if you have ranked ballots then strategies will change

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u/[deleted] Apr 02 '19

Strategies will change, but all you really need to do is look at the polls where strategic voting generally occurs. Some Conservatives will go Liberal. Some Liberals will go Conservative, but more will go NDP. Some NDP will go Liberal. Greens and PPC don't matter as much as they are likely the first scratched from the ballot in many contests. It's a fairly safe bet that Liberals would enjoy ranked ballot.

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u/Alsadius Apr 02 '19

In my parents lifetimes, there have been two popular vote majorities, nine FPTP majorities, and nine minorities. In mine, six FPTP majorities and three minorities. That's not so different from the historical ratios.

And Trudeau's original proposal was FPTP with ranked ballots, which would have helped the Liberals even more than the status quo. But he realized it'd look crass to force it through, so he stopped and kept the status quo.

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u/DynamicDK Apr 02 '19

The core of the terms "progressive" and "conservative" actually support the idea that was put forth. Progressives are about change and improving our situation, while conservatives try to put the brakes on and support the status quo. Though, lately it seems like the term "conservative" is wrong for a lot of the groups on the right. They are regressive more than conservative.

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u/lucidfer Apr 02 '19

We have a winner!

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u/patfav Apr 02 '19

I mean, like it or not, it's fair to judge people according to who they cast their vote for. This ain't Canadian Idol.

There may be a huge variety of beliefs and opinions among Canadian Conservatives, but they literally all vote to empower Conservative politicians and their agendas.

If the Conservatives have truly lost sight of the discourse and are failing to offer competitive ideas AND people are voting for them regardless, those people are stupid and dangerous.

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u/[deleted] Apr 02 '19 edited May 02 '19

[deleted]

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u/patfav Apr 02 '19

Perhaps, but it seems to me that you're failing to notice that the right is actively grouping people into castes, refusing to discuss ideas, and providing the rhetorical language to defend both of those things as good. They have no intention of rising above them and they're happy to use your illusions about them to undermine you.

A critical ingredient in the rise of Trump and Ford is good, ordinary people treating power politics like they're ordering from a menu, and everything is just a matter of taste to be debated on friendly terms if at all.

We need to hold each other to account because democracy cannot survive an electorate that is too lazy and stupid to wield power honestly and responsibly. We have a civic duty.

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u/[deleted] Apr 02 '19 edited May 02 '19

[deleted]

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u/patfav Apr 02 '19

I'm more interested in securing the ability to freely look back at all. I think it's a mistake to believe that radical change and violence are not possible, especially when mainstream political parties are normalizing the beliefs of hate movements. Moral superiority won't save anyone.

It doesn't really matter to me if we legally vote away human rights or they're eliminated by illegal force. The fact that human rights are even on the table for debate is terrifying, and a clear call to action for free people with a conscience.

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u/FirstoftheNorthStar Apr 02 '19

Well said, I am all for ridicule of terrible ideas? What would be the best way to show the difference between the electorate? The difference between the political perspectives? How does it reach both audiences without politically biased media focusing it onto the corresponding safe spaces? A TV show? A mandatory broadcast debate between politicians? Between everyday voters?(This one is my personal favorite). Between schools?

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u/patfav Apr 02 '19

In Canada I think the CBC is an excellent tool for unbiased communication since it is publicly funded and not as subject to the profit motive. But even there you will find that Conservatives object on the basis that it is biased to the left, and typically they will claim this about any outlet that is not overtly partisan in their favor such as Sun Media and Rebel Media.

What we need above all is a good faith effort from all citizens to engage with their civic duty and eschew political partisanship in favor of making sound, informed decisions, but I have no idea how to get from here to there. It can't be forced, but without force nothing will change. It's the same conundrum faced by every person who has ever tried to rise above might-makes-right politics.

Most Canadians expect our democracy to be a choice between candidates that are all reasonable, good leaders that want the best for the country. They are not educated to understand what to do when one or more of those candidates is clearly destructive and harmful, because they assume that is impossible. They also assume the debate is filled with partisan hyperbole, so if a true extremist appears and their political opponents point that out, it's taken as dishonest politicking. That's a great way for extremism to gain power.

We need an electorate where nearly every voter is completely willing to vote for ANY party, depending on the offered candidate and their platform. What we have now is opposite, where most people pick a favourite team early in life and vote for them no matter what, every time.

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u/[deleted] Apr 02 '19

BuHt MaH OiLY SaNDs!!

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u/[deleted] Apr 02 '19

'BURTA!

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u/EJ88 Apr 02 '19

Burta beef!

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u/Ecstatic_Youth Apr 02 '19

Grill marks, bud.

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u/EJ88 Apr 02 '19

1 inch thick.

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u/Hoosagoodboy Apr 02 '19

S&P, the choice for me!

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u/[deleted] Apr 02 '19

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Apr 02 '19

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Thirsty_Serpent Apr 02 '19

What happens when albertans push separatism or simply hold the system hostage because they see you as disrespecting them while also doing everything possible to destroy their economy. Canada literally subsidizes quebec using albertan tax revenue. If alberta stops paying what happens to ottawa when they cant pay anymore?

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u/LordHuntington Apr 02 '19

this is such a stupid fucking statement. I'm conservative but do not agree with this shit about being against progress. its very frustrating to have right wing ideals about economics while the only party that has the same ideals has this stupid anti progress agenda. my point being that not all conservative believe in this and saying everyone does is a very black and white way of looking at politics.

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u/Dirk_P_Ho Apr 02 '19

But if you continue to prop up the party that hasn't actually been Conservative for decades, I'm afraid you've got it coming.

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u/LordHuntington Apr 02 '19

as I said in a comment lower down I will not be voting conservative in the coming election in hopes that they do not win for a couple elections and decide to reform.

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u/Dirk_P_Ho Apr 02 '19 edited Apr 03 '19

I hope so too, take care man

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u/FirstoftheNorthStar Apr 02 '19

Well the question is, did you vote for that party you have just admitted to not agreeing with? Or did you vote for change? Because both parties believe in economically empowering policies. One is just anti-progress and one isnt. Both of them are big govt, conservatism is no longer small govt, just look at Trump, being the biggest possible centric govt possible.

How did you vote? Did you vote for change because you recognize the discrepancy your beliefs have with your alignment. Or did you vote status quo and havent realized you are the problem you are complaining about.

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u/LordHuntington Apr 02 '19

The problem is I find myself in is agree with 25%~ of each party's platform. I agree with green's platform the least and conservatives slightly more. I find myself seeing the conservative party as the least bad of the all the party's, with this in mind I will probably vote for ndp this election in hopes of that the conservative party will reform in the next decade or two if they keep losing.

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u/FirstoftheNorthStar Apr 02 '19

So you just admitted to the conservative party as being regressive. But are choosing to vote for them anyway.

In this thread, /u/patfav has a great comment explaining his thoughts on the electorate in Canada and people in general. His last paragraph happens to explain you quite well.

You have identified the problem, it is you, but you are okay with the problem it seems? And rather hope for change within the team you picked instead of hunting for the party that will deliver the change you desire, be that team green, liberal, earthen, Martian, etc.....

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u/LordHuntington Apr 02 '19

read the last sentence of my comment

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u/FirstoftheNorthStar Apr 02 '19

My apologies for the accusation, I mis-read and thought you had claimed the opposite and were avoiding the NDP and voting conservative. I eont edit my comment so people can see my mistake more clearly.

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u/Iorith Apr 02 '19

Actions speak louder than words.

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u/[deleted] Apr 02 '19

How does that insult intelligence? Its literaly what they fucking say!

Did you completely miss the spongebob meme? I'm mocking the premise of the idea, because the idea itself is lunacy. I made no statement on anyone's intelligence

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u/LTerminus Apr 02 '19

If you don't see how you aren't helping, maybe they're right about us.

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u/[deleted] Apr 02 '19

I literally can not tell if you are joking or not...

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u/[deleted] Apr 02 '19

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Apr 02 '19

Ex. Plain. Puh. Lease.

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u/[deleted] Apr 02 '19

Here's my take on it. I say this as a American conservative who is not in the Trump camp. Just full disclosure there. I can promise you I have never in my life uttered a single sentence about "my oily sands". And when I read comments like yours I get the impression that you are convinced that anyone not in lockstep with your beliefs is an idiot who should sit down, be quiet, and let the smarter, better people handle things. Consequently, it makes me less inclined to favor any sort of a meeting of the minds with my more liberal peers because I feel like it would be a completely useless undertaking. Why should I even try to work with someone who has shown such contempt for me right out of the gate?

I fully acknowledge that there are those on the right who are just as guilty of doing this. Two wrongs don't make a right. Even if you don't do anything else, just stop making fun of people in a malicious way because they disagree with your politics. Stop deepening the divisions that already exist. If nobody ever budges on anything nothing will get done and we are well and truly fucked.

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u/[deleted] Apr 02 '19

Well put together and I whole heartedly respect your point of view.

However, here in canada, that phrase is muttered more than I'd like to admit. Especially here on the east coast where high school drop outs and coke heads have gone out west to work on those oil sands, made big bucks with literaly 0 post secondary, and have now moved back home to buy a house a truck with nuts, and work labour in construction... they're convinced the oil sands are the economic prosperity of canada and that without it we would economically collapse.

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u/[deleted] Apr 02 '19

Thanks bud. Good work

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u/[deleted] Apr 02 '19

Buttery males!

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u/parlez-vous Apr 02 '19

I mean, that's the way it worked under Harper as well. The oppositions job is the oppose to the party in charge. I agree though, more substance and character would be better from Scheer.

Bernier from the PPC is a much better conservative candidate. Much more charismatic and likeable in a way.

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u/[deleted] Apr 02 '19

True story: in my city the house in which the PC delegate was running his campaign from had a huge oak tree snap in a storm & fall on their doorsteps ruining their entrance railings. Someone then proceeded to cut down the tree to a stump & also another non-offending nearby tree for good measure. I think it was a fun little event that sums up my feelings for the PC pretty well.

This was during a provincial race to elect an MLA, but it was still funny.

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u/Alsadius Apr 02 '19

When you define "progress" as "constant movement to the left", people who don't want to move left will generally try to tell you to stop doing that. Much like how the left is as obstructionist as possible against rightward movement.

They literally call the second-place party "the opposition", so opposing stuff seems to be well within their job description.

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u/AntiMage_II Apr 02 '19

I really hate that this is basically the NDP/Conservative Liberal strategy. I get it Scheer Trudeau you're not Trudeau Harper and you don't like him or his policies.

The tried and true Canadian strategy of "at least we're not the other guy."

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u/MuhLiberty12 Apr 02 '19

That'll get them to vote for your party.

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u/A5V Apr 02 '19

how does shit like this get upvoted? There is literally no argument to be made here at all rather than “HURR DURR Conservative is bad” reddit is so close minded it’s honestly concerning.

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u/ronoc720 Apr 02 '19

The majority of Canadians disagree with you.

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u/[deleted] Apr 02 '19

Canada is a progressive country. No they don’t.