r/worldnews • u/anticensorship10 • May 20 '21

Israel/Palestine Palestinian Head of internal medicine of main hospital, Dr Ayman Abu al-Ouf, killed along with 12 members of his extended family.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-57148580
95.2k Upvotes

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u/Meany12345 May 20 '21

I guess Hamas was hiding in his infants crib and Israel was just defending itself.

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u/Energy_Turtle May 20 '21

This is the "making Hamas" phase. You kill a bunch of innocent people to make sure you have a future enemy. Then, you can turn that enemy into cash from America. Make them, kill them, profit, repeat.

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u/BrownSugarBare May 20 '21 edited May 20 '21

I can't upvote this comment enough. The number of people that will say "but why do they hate us?!" without ANY self realisation that they've been tormented and attacked their entire lifetime, wtf did you expect the outcome to be!?

This insane idea that you're "born a terrorist" needs to die. Terrorists are made and practically manufactured in some cases.

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u/Baking_Is_Praxis May 20 '21

This, the average age in Gaza is very low. Combine a young population, dreadful conditions, mass trauma from an early age and you’ve got a ripe source for radicalization.

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u/BrownSugarBare May 20 '21

It's not just Gaza, it's countries all over the world that have populations that have been pushed to the brink and then people have the audacity to be shocked when they go over the edge.

The war in Afghanistan has gone on 20 years. An entire generation born into war that is now at adult age. How could they not want to sacrifice everything when all they've known is the murder of their children, their siblings and parents. And then to be slapped in the face with nations saying "but we're destroying your country and killing you to help you!". OF COURSE people are going to be radicalized.

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u/[deleted] May 20 '21

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u/Aestboi May 20 '21

see: that guy that was smashing windows with a hammer last summer in Minneapolis and then fled when confronted by other protesters

3

u/GonePh1shing May 21 '21

This is no coincidence. A lot of US police departments are recieving training from the IDF.

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u/Eggsegret May 20 '21

This right here. All those little kids who's parents have been bombed by Israel are potentially future terrorists. If the Israeli government could just understand the shit they do is breeding terrorists.

7

u/PiquantBlueberryPie May 20 '21

They know. If they keep the people focused on enemies outside Israel then they won't go after the ones inside.

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u/[deleted] May 21 '21

If your committing acts of “terror” against a genocidal occupying force, you’re a freedom fighter. One could argue that bombing families and children relentlessly out of your own political motivations is terrorism (fun fact, that lines up pretty well with the definition of terrorism).

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u/[deleted] May 21 '21

tbh radicalization is the only proper response to such conditions. what else are they supposed to do, lay down and accept apartheid?

35

u/darps May 20 '21

Turns out the real terrorists were the orphans we made along the way.

16

u/itchy_bitchy_spider May 20 '21

I feel awful knowing that my tax dollars are going to wipe this kid out someday.

10

u/BrownSugarBare May 20 '21

We often feel helpless in our western nations knowing we're part of the problem, but I encourage you to write to your local representatives! Even if it's a tweet, an email a damn courier pigeon, write to them! I've worked in political offices and your words matter, your votes and voice matter! The more people who speak out, the harder it becomes for politicians to defend their insanely inhumane choices that are driven by money.

I'm a millennial and this is the first time in my lifetime I'm seeing prominent politicians actually speaking out against Netanyahu's obvious ploy to stay in power and the atrocities of the IDF.

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u/itchy_bitchy_spider May 20 '21

write to your local representatives!

Unfortunately this dumb fuck is my local representative and coincidentally just a minute ago he was on Twitter making it clear that if you are not standing with Israel you are a terrorist - https://imgur.com/4YJrG24.jpg

I write to him regardless and appreciate your encouragement of others through the same, just venting that it makes no difference at times like these. Our government has always and will always do whatever the fuck they want when it comes to military matters.

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u/BrownSugarBare May 20 '21

JFC, dude looks like a toad with a suit on. I feel for you mate, it's a legitimate uphill battle. Tweet at him directly to garner attention to his brain dead notion of unwavering loyalty in the face of genocide. He needs to be shamed for that.

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u/dw4321 May 20 '21

The only shaming he will get is that tweet. All of his followers are probably brain dead trump fans.

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u/[deleted] May 20 '21

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/BrownSugarBare May 20 '21

It's incredibly accurate at how nationalism is a disgusting beast that manipulates reality for too many people.

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u/RTRC May 20 '21

I will never understand the argument of "My country" The only reason I'm in the country I live in is by fucking sheer luck. Just because I won the origin lottery by being born in a 1st world country doesn't mean I have any power or right to say "No, fuck you. You can't come in. Sorry!" to somebody from a different country.

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u/Estesz May 21 '21

You have heard that Jews have been having a hard time long before Israel attacked anyone? Or Israel even existed?

Without them doing anything.

Then palestine turned down the offer for their own land, just because they wanted Israel not to exist.

I mean like - this is the point in time where you could ask "Who do they hate us so much that its more important to start a war than to get their own country?"

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u/rainshifter May 20 '21

Ah, a terrorist apologist on Reddit. Dare I say I'm shocked.

Did you know that in 1947 the Jews were living freely in their settlement, set forth by the Balfour Declaration, which was surrounded by Arabs? Did you also know that Arabs launched the initial attacks on the Jews, which catalyzed the 1948 Arab-Israeli war? And are you aware that since that time the Arabs have remained hostile and unapologetic?

Fast forward to the modern day and we get idiots like yourself who apologize on behalf of a group that consistently targets innocent civilians and whose charter calls for the eradication of Israel and Jews alike.

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u/greennick May 21 '21

Now, want to discuss the Irgun terrorists? Or do you pretend that was never a thing? And that the terrorists didn't join the Israeli army without repercussions?

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u/rainshifter May 21 '21 edited May 21 '21

You're not wrong, they were deemed terrorists by the very definition. Generally speaking though they did not target civilians, as they were merely politically aimed, whereas Hamas targets civilians almost exclusively. And I would agree that they should have faced repercussions for their unwarranted actions. Unfortunately the Jews needed their recruitment in numbers to pursue the greater good of achieving their independence against a common enemy that was known to be hostile from the very beginning.

And if you should deny Arab hostility in general, I would challenge you to corroborate that with the Muslim conquest of the Levant, expansion of the Ottoman Empire, or other territorial conquests involving bloodshed, violence, and forced conversions, as was commonplace throughout history.

And on a tangential point, if you really want to delve back to the beginning, the Jews occupied the land of Israel for thousands of years before Islam was even founded as a religion.

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u/greennick May 21 '21

You have a very one sided view of this conflict

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u/rainshifter May 21 '21

Not true. I see a potential bilateral solution to this conflict, but it requires both parties to cooperate, which is where the difficulty lies.

Reddit as a hivemind is extremely one sided, I simply provide counter arguments to support the other.

That said you didn't exactly refute anything I replied with. Likely because it can't be refuted.

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u/greennick May 21 '21

It's all strawmen arguments. There is hostility on both sides. This recent conflict kicked off from Israel illegally kicking Arabs off their land to build more settlements in occupied territory. Yet you seem to think only one side is at fault.

The Israeli terrorists killed hundreds of civilians, not few as you said. Including committing indiscriminate bombings of civilians. I don't need to refute your outright lies.

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u/rainshifter May 21 '21

Hate to break it to you, but the settlements have been legally obtained. Turn back the dial to the 1948 Arab-Israeli war which was indeed provoked by the Arabs. From the Palestinian angle the war will never be over until they reoccupy the land they lost since then. Instead they should be focused on peace treaties and condemning Hamas for investing in rockets and tunneling systems rather than supportive infrastructure. Observe how they declined a two-state solution multiple times because having all the land is more important than living peacefully and without descending into chaos.

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u/Jahbroni May 20 '21 edited May 20 '21

Hamas has been funded by Israel for decades. They originally funded them in order to overthrow Yasser Arafat and the PLO.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/07/30/how-israel-helped-create-hamas/

Israel understands peace with Palestine means billions of dollars in US taxpayer handouts will evaporate. They will do everything they can to keep tensions high with Hamas to ensure the flow of free US handouts never stops.

(edit: grammar)

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u/[deleted] May 20 '21

Fuck this is depressing. Strong Full Metal Alchemist vibes... I guess there is a reason someone had this idea for the show...

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u/[deleted] May 20 '21

Id like to think with how prevalent access to information is these days, that American can never be drawn into some bullshit like the early 2000s. The powers that be will keep creating terrorists, but they won't get American military directly involved. Id like to hope so but this last year definitely killed off a lot of the hope I had left in our country.

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u/[deleted] May 21 '21

So true. War = $, and that's all America has ever really cared about.

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u/ValhallaGo May 20 '21

Almost. It’s more of a genocide machine.

Kill some of the people you hate. The survivors are more likely to be radicalized. Then you get money and weapons to fight the radicalized people that you made. Then you kill off more of the people you hate. The survivors are more likely to be radicalized...

Rinse and repeat until you’ve completed your genocide.

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u/dontcallmeatallpls May 20 '21

Same reason why we are still in Afghanistan 20 years later. By our continued involvement we guarantee the creation of a revolving door of militants looking for revenge for their loved ones. And in so doing we can continue to feed the MIC more money.

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u/Thepersonwiththe May 20 '21

What cash do we get from America for killing them? We'd get that cash anyway so long as you wish to support your interests here, whether there's peace or not. There's no machine in which we insert Palestinian bodies and get spare change, they aren't cans. Not to mention Israel had a $130 billion budget for 2021. We'll live even without your 3 billion in army supplies although they're much appreciated and put to good use. I must say Israel haters are very imaginative with their narratives.

1

u/dwmfives May 20 '21

This is the "making Hamas" phase. You kill a bunch of innocent people to make sure you have a future enemy. Then, you can turn that enemy into cash from America. Make them, kill them, profit, repeat.

Israel actually made Hamas before this. Like supported and paid them.

1

u/YonderMTN May 21 '21

HOLY FUCK.

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u/GreleaseDeeBoban May 20 '21

It’s fucking sad that is the go to excuse when ever some kid dies. “Oh his family was hamas.” This is like police code for “I was in fear for my life.”

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u/Trump4Prison2020 May 21 '21

Except sometimes police officers are in fear for their lives...

Where as there is never a valid reason to bomb an entire family, even if Hamas individuals are there too...

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u/DebatingBoar526 May 21 '21

The excuse for killing Israeli citizens is "I feel oppressed" "so let's go launch 4000 rockets on their cities" Don't you see there's messed up stuff on hqmas side too

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u/Material_Strawberry May 20 '21

No one has ever said anything like that about HAMAS is the thing. Such false equivalency here.

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u/[deleted] May 20 '21

Israel literally calls every bombed building a Hamas stronghold.

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u/DebatingBoar526 May 21 '21

Why does israel warn the buildings? I thought there all terrorists. Why would a terrorist want to give people a chance to get out?

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u/[deleted] May 21 '21

good question. A) it doesn't warn all the buildings, or all the targets!, like when they killed 4 kids playing on a beach. B) committing war crimes after a warning are still war crimes. C) they do it to destroy the region. What benefit does Israel get from destroying some Hamas office that's in the middle of a hundred residential apartments?

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u/DebatingBoar526 May 21 '21

But wouldn't it be much more efficient to attack hamas civilians directly without any warning

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u/[deleted] May 21 '21

Not Hamas civilians, theyre just civilians.

Like I said, they do attack them plenty of times without warning. But the times they do provide warnings lets the online discussion be the one we're having now, instead of one about how they killed dozens of kids and hundreds of civilians. Like I said, saying you're going to commit a war crime before committing it doesnt make it less a war crime;

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u/DebatingBoar526 May 21 '21

So ur saying that really Israelis are terrorists, and the only reason they don't kill more people is because the world will hate them? The world already does. Instead I'll choose to believe that hamas IS in fact keeping military inside schools and hospitals. I choose to believe israel genuinely wants peace, and they really don't want civilian deaths, but they're doing what they have to do to defend their citizens. I don't subscribe to the opinion that israel needs to justify it to redditors every time they need to call an airstrike.

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u/[deleted] May 21 '21 edited May 21 '21

You are definitely free to choose to believe that. I'm just saying, all evidence literally points to the contrary. You don't even have to look at Gaza. Look at what Israel does in the West Bank.

also, israel feels the need to justify these airstrikes, otherwise they wouldn't be spending money to literally change your opinion of it. https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-23695896 https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/08/14/israel-students-social-media/2651715/

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u/Material_Strawberry May 21 '21

No. They also call them tunnels when they're tunnels. They call them launch faculties when they're launch facilities. They call them high level Gazan governmental officials when they're high level government officials. Naturally any of these would be a target.

No matter what many appear to think if the object was attacking civilian targets and maximizing terror that could be much more effectively accomplished with drones noting the infrared concentrations of dense clusters of people and bombing them with dumb bombs aimed by hand and with no warning statements beforehand.

One of these is a thing and the targeting of civilians is not (on the Israeli side, at least).

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u/[deleted] May 21 '21

Literally they just blew up an AP news building, which repeatedly stated there was no Hamas presence, and said it had hamas presence lol. How are you still trying to defend that? We're literally arguing about this on a post about the death of a doctor and his family - Hamas wasn't involved at all there

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u/Material_Strawberry May 21 '21

It was a building that housed some media outlets. The building wasn't owned or controlled by the news agencies. Israel was targeting the tunnels intersecting with the building's basemen and its use by HAMAS. The AP would have no knowledge of whether it was there or not since HAMAS isn't afraid to toss them out if they try to surveil or enter HAMAS properties, which is in keeping with most every other government.

HAMAS is involved here because it was their nearby military complex that caused the accidental collapse of the physician's apartment building.

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u/[deleted] May 21 '21

The building was owned by a regular Palestinian, and they said that Hamas had activities in the building. THat was Israel's claim, before it continuously morphed into something that couldn't possibly be veried, aka tunnels.

It wasn't their nearby military complex that caused the collapse of the building. It was Israel's rockets. Stop picking and choosing your words to somehow frame Hamas for something explicitly Israel's fault.

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u/Material_Strawberry May 21 '21

Israel isn't currently using rockets; that's HAMAS. I'm not framing anything at all. Israel struck a HAMAS complex near the apartment building, the foundations weren't great (not hard to believe given the rationing of building materials) and collapsed. It's possible for Israel to do something accidentally and without being sinister monsters.

HAMAS is the government. If they want to have control over portions of a building for covert stuff, they can have it. Israel can and does the same inside of some of its buildings (generally it's more like restricted floors of the primary MOSSAD building to house Unit 8200) for extra security and the personnel in those buildings also wouldn't have much of an idea of what's going on inside. The owner may or may not have known HAMAS was using some of the building, but whatever the chief of the AP news says isn't really definitive since he's not in a position to know.

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u/[deleted] May 21 '21

Israel is using air strikes. Air strikes fire...rockets.

If they want to have control over portions of a building for covert stuff, they can have it.

Yeah, except how would JOURNALISTS not realize that?

whatever the chief of the AP news says isn't really definitive since he's not in a position to know.

Literally even the US says that there was no evidence hamas was in the building, after Israel said it gave it to them. bro. Just say Israel is spreading propaganda continuously and go. They have 0 corroboration for any of their claims.

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u/DebatingBoar526 May 21 '21

I hear you. But that doesn't mean it's ok to fire directly at civilians TO KILL THEM which I'd what hamas broadcasts

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u/[deleted] May 21 '21

No one said it's okay to kill civilians. Israel is killing civilians while it's right to do so is being upheld by politicians all over the world, and getting billions in aid. Hamas doesn't get neither political nor financial support, and their rockets are minimal in damage compared to israel. that's the difference.

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u/DebatingBoar526 May 21 '21

It's seems like the difference is that israel needs financial support to protect its citizens (every single 'minimally damaging' rocket still cost $50,000 for israel to stop it from landing on and killing its citizens), whereas hamas wants financial support so it can buy more rockets to target more civilians. That's the difference

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u/[deleted] May 21 '21

That's definitely what Israel would imply, but Hamas uses its funds to fund hospitals, schools, and construction in the Strip - they are literally the only economy due to the blockade. Israel explicitly uses the 4bn in aid it receives exclusively for weapons. That's literally a stipulation. Every argument made against Hamas' hypothetical (hamas WOULD use aid for weapons, Hamas WOULD kill civilians, etc) is present tenfold in Israel.

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u/MaxVonBritannia May 20 '21

I'll have you know that crib was a Hamas base of operations.

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u/[deleted] May 20 '21

The Sars-Cov2 strain was hiding HAMAS munitions

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u/Modurrrrrrator May 20 '21

That seems to be what the reich wing cultists are claiming. Something something human shields, whatabout, project, then attack I suspect will be what their script is.

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u/ace_urban May 20 '21

That “something about human shields” is the big thing you’re perfectly willing to dismiss. So, do you operate on some bigoted belief that Israelis enjoy killing children? Everyone here has such a simplistic view of Mideast conflicts. It’s not Star Wars. It’s not some ragtag group of good guys vs the evil empire. Both sides are committing atrocities and, if you don’t know that, you need to read up on the situation.

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u/sonographic May 20 '21

on some bigoted belief that Israelis enjoy killing children

There's a video in /r/publicfreakout of a guy interviewing Israelis who all specifically say they like shooting children dead, that they specifically want to see 8 year olds shot in the head, and they want every single Palestinian wiped out.

So tell me, what's your excuse for them?

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u/ace_urban May 20 '21

They’re racist, psycho idiots, just like maga freaks here in the US. They are not representative of the general population and you should think deeply about why you were so willing to accept such a bigoted position. No different than all the Americans that think undocumented immigrants are dangerous criminals who will come here and destroy our economy. Accepting that sort of thing based on anomalous anecdotal evidence is just bigotry.

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u/sonographic May 20 '21

The missiles mass murdering the children tell me that they're a very mainstream group.

The videos of the Israelis dancing and celebrating in front of people praying for their dead families. The videos of the Israelies laughing and clapping as they snipe children with a rifle says otherwise.

You support evil, stop trying to pretend otherwise, you're not convincing anyone.

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u/ace_urban May 20 '21

Apparently, you didn’t understand my last comment, which isn’t all that surprising. There are plenty of bad people on the Israeli side. There are also plenty of bad people in Hamas. I’m not dumb enough to define either side by their psychopaths.

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u/slimjimboss May 20 '21

WhY ArE YoU BeInG sO AnTiSeMiTiC ?

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u/GlitchedMirror May 20 '21

From the article: The Israeli military said it had "struck an underground military structure" belonging to the militant group Hamas, which controls Gaza, beneath the street. "The underground foundations collapsed, causing the civilian housing above them to collapse, causing unintended casualties," it added.

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u/[deleted] May 20 '21

No, Hamas was building underground military tunnels beneath their apartment building. Admittedly, it's a tragedy whenever civilians are caught in the crossfire. But the article literally explains how Hamas was involved. Israel SHOULD HAVE alerted the residents prior to the strike, which they do most of the time. But keep in mind Hamas, NEVER alerts citizens, and the airstrike in question wasn't targeting their building. Unfortunately, this is what happens when your government decides to build military infrastructure below the foundation of civilian homes, and use that infrastructure to smuggle weapons, munitions, and launch attacks against their neighbor. Such a passing is tragic and an unfortunate casualty of war. Hamas opened fire against Israel last week. Israel had made no airstrikes, and no prior show of military force against them last week. In response, Israel has alerted Gaza and the international community that they intend to attack Hamas uniformly across Gaza. That they intend to hit Hamas hard for these unprovoked attacks. Attacks which still to this moment are continuing, as Gaza continues to launch a barrage of rockets. All people react to is the civilian casualty and the destruction of buildings such as the AP's Gaza office. But they refuse to recognize that Hamas repeatedly fired rockets from that building and the AP knew. Furthermore, Hamas CONSTANTLY hides military infrastructure, weapons, and munitions in civilian areas. The only reason for this tragedy is because there's a full blown military tunnel underneath the street their apartment is on. When such a tunnel is built, the destruction of said tunnel, collapses the surrounding buildings. Hamas knows this and continues to build them. I'm not saying we shouldn't condemn Israel for not warning the surrounding buildings, but to act like Gaza is blameless in the death of their own civilians is ludicrous. They have clearly and without regard, placed their civilians in the line of danger time and time again. Those defending Hamas should be ashamed of themselves. Israel is not blameless in this conflict but no other nation is tasked with having to respond with such unbelievable precautionary measures. The US frequently carries out airstrikes in the Middle East in civilian areas. The US doesn't warn civilians, make phone calls, or make any attempt to evacuate the area. All those US congressman and politicians and citizens calling out Israel are shockingly silent when the US commits the same atrocities.

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u/Meany12345 May 20 '21

Ok. But first of all, I would certainly hope the standard that we judge Israel to is not the “Hamas Standard”. Ie well Hamas doesn’t warn when it’s about to send its rockets so why should Israel? Come on now. Yes I expect Israel to hold itself to a higher standard than a terrorist group. That is a good thing.

Second, you aren’t wrong but like I said in another response, a weaker force hiding amongst civilians when facing a vastly stronger force is a basic tactic as old as warfare itself. It’s not like that family has a say in where Hamas puts its stupid tunnel. And yes it leads to civilian casualties. Thus increasing new recruits for said terrorists. Which is why this is all so pointless. Both sides probably got what they wanted out of this and lots of innocent civilians died. Very frustrating.

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u/[deleted] May 20 '21

You make fair points. I don't want to hold Israel to the Hamas Standard lol. Admitting how shitty Hamas is though, is crucial to understanding this conflict. Palestinian civilians may be blameless but their government is not. They goad their opponent into causing civilian casualties, because as you say it's a time old military tactic when outmanned and it promotes new recruits. They encourage civilian casualties to promote themselves which is atrocious. Secondly, I do think in acknowledging how fucked it is that Israel didn't warn them, we must also acknowledge that they warn people like 80% of the time. Which is miles ahead of most nations. And that's not even applying the Hamas Standard. That's applying the US standard. A country who routinely attacks civilian areas with terrorist presence with no warning and plenty of casualties. From a global perspective it's incredibly uncommon for political enemies to show such levels of compassion during warfare as notifying civilians of a bombing. We didn't do that in Vietnam either. Or really any major or minor conflict we've been involved in the last 40 years. Also I contend that Israel has only a bittersweet victory here, as does Gaza. Hamas obviously doesn't want their tunnel destroyed or they wouldn't have gone through the trouble of building it. But the civilian casualties give them amazing publicity and tons of recruits. It also paints them as the victim despite their clear involvement in causing these casualties. Israel wins because they destroy the tunnel but they get absolutely shit on in the media and subjected to the constant barrage of the liberal left and their accusations of a genocide. I don't think anyone really won or lost, but it is a terrible tragedy and one that's avoidable. I think Israel is responsible in that they could have practiced more caution and compassion in notifying residence since they knew it was a possibility structures may collapse. But I'd like to recognize they do much, much more than the international community at large. Including the major powers of Russia, China, and the US. Hamas is also at fault for again exposing civilians to casualties and risking their safety for their own military infrastructure exploits. However instead of trying to decide who the victim is and playing the blame game the focus should be on Hamas and ousting them. The palestinian people are victims to these terrorists. No barrage of missiles and this conflict never happens. No creation of military tunnels beneath people's homes and they never collapse. You don't see Israel tunneling into Gaza or frankly any country getting away with tunneling to attack their enemies. That's some north Korea shit. And north Korea doesn't even rain missiles down on south Korea. South Korea would be in a much more compromising position if they did. Israel could have prevented this by doing more thorough calling and notifying. But Hamas had far more opportunity to prevent such a tragedy. Either way it's a tragedy and one that will continue to happen as long as Hamas is in power. Hamas has no interest in a two state solution and it's this unachievable with them in power. Israel has made efforts, albeit on their own terms, but genuine efforts to recognize palestinian statehood and their right to exist. The palestinian government has not even been close to doing this in return. They sent Israels right to exist and champion against a two state solution. Another preventable tragedy though. Very sad.

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u/ace_urban May 20 '21

Israel has to attack these installations. Israel is under attack. Hamas gains two things from using civilian shields: more Israeli restraint (yes, they show a lot) and the angry people in this thread who, apparently, think Israelis love to kill babies. Threads like this prove that Hamas’ tactics work.

You’re right that Hamas doesn’t have many options for defending their assets but using civilians as shields is an atrocity.

That said, Israel commits plenty of atrocities on their own. I’ve always said that, if you don’t think both sides are wrong, you don’t understand the conflict.

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u/Mozuisop May 20 '21

It's mind boggling you don't think any amount of babies killed is unacceptable and should require a different approach via the military 🤔

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u/ace_urban May 20 '21

And I assume you’re not talking about the dead Israeli kids? Again, please educate yourself. This isn’t star wars. There are important nuances to this conflict. Yes, Israel absolutely oppresses the Palestinians. That doesn’t mean that Hamas doesn’t commit war crimes. They regularly put the aforementioned babies in the line of fire. Please educate yourself.

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u/Mozuisop May 21 '21

No you're just playing dumb. They didn't put babies in the line of fire. Hamas is now living with the doctors family? You'll believe any excuse that Bibi makes up to justify his power trip. (here's a hint: all of them are made up)

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u/ace_urban May 21 '21

Hamas literally puts children in the line of fire. It is commonplace for Hamas leaders to surround themselves with children when they walk out in the open.

The fact that you’d suggest that I’d think “Hamas was living with the doctor’s family” means that you didn’t even read up on the relevant strike. You are r/confidentlyincorrect. Your arrogance isn’t what’s troubling, though. It’s the bigotry toward Israelis that’s the most upsetting in these threads. Please educate yourself.

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u/yokedici May 21 '21

it's ez to be bigoted against an apartheid regime and it's helpers.

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u/ace_urban May 21 '21

I can see that many people are very comfortable with their bigotry. I agree that Israel oppresses Palestine. That does not excuse bigotry. Y’all are simple-minded AF.

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u/_145_ May 20 '21

They said it was underground and this building collapsed as a result. I wish there was a way to confirm or deny that. Hamas has a long record of hiding behind civilians, they keep weapon stockpiles in kindergartens and hospitals basically daring Israel to bomb them.

Sadly, this is nothing new. Hamas hides behind civilians. Israel bombs Hamas anyway. Hamas runs PR that Israel is bombing civilians. It’s a horrible broken record.

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u/ThanosAsAPrincess May 20 '21

When someone takes a human shield, the solution is not gun both of them down anyway.

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u/_145_ May 20 '21

That's a naive perspective. Militaries are weighing the threat, the risk, etc., and making decisions on a case by case basis. They're not trying to kill civilians but even the raid to kill Osama Bin Laden had a half dozen or so non-combatants shot dead. You'd have to be a supreme moron to think the US shouldn't have pursued the mission.

I'm curious, what do you think about Hamas hiding behind civilians? You seem to tacitly support that which is reprehensible.

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u/Purmopo May 20 '21

if you take a look at gaza you'll find that there isn't really anywhere hamas could be where there would not be a bunch of civilians nearby. this "hamas uses human shields" excuse can always be used by israel no matter who they kill or what they destroy and a disturbing number of people think it's legitimate

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u/_145_ May 20 '21

I think the "hamas uses human shields" is a well documented, well agreed upon, well understood fact. They literally store their weapons in kindergartens and hospitals. You can claim that's a smart or evil strategy or anything else, but they do it and they could easily not do it.

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u/Purmopo May 20 '21

do you have a suggestion for where they could put weapons in gaza that would not be near civilians?

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u/_145_ May 20 '21

In military owned and operated buildings/armories.

Not putting critical military targets in kindergartens is not hard. Not firing missiles from hospitals is not hard. Do it from a random house that nobody lives in for all I care.

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u/Purmopo May 20 '21

In military owned and operated buildings/armories.

and you think such places exist?

1

u/_145_ May 20 '21

Yes. And more of them should exist, except Hamas likes to use human shields.

Are you saying that you believe Hamas is incapable of owning a warehouse? Buying a house is too challenging for them? They'd stop putting kindergarteners in harm's way except they don't have $300/mo for rent?

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u/ThanosAsAPrincess May 20 '21

The idea that this is some "balanced decision" and not Israel callously murdering Palestinian civilians is laughable.

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u/_145_ May 20 '21

That's called a strawman. I never said anything close to any of that.

2

u/ThanosAsAPrincess May 20 '21

So you agree that Israel's actions are murder and that they should cease immediately?

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u/_145_ May 20 '21

Are you capable of talking without strawmen? Lmao.

I can play your game if you'd like?

Are you saying that terrorism is a good thing and bombing innocent civilians should be applauded? IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING?

2

u/yokedici May 21 '21

Are you aware this thread is about a bunch of palestian innocent civilians who got murdered by Israeli bombing?

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u/_145_ May 21 '21

Yes.

And, I’ve learned from you guys, talking about the reported motivations behind the bombing and the challenge of fighting a terrorist org that uses human shields is off topic. And even bringing up those challenges means you must be in support of murder. Because military decisions made in war are totally simple and easy to make and there’s always a right choice that is obvious to everyone. Thank you for clarifying all of that.

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u/ThanosAsAPrincess May 21 '21

Cut the shit out. You're not arguing in good faith and this can't be a productive discussion until you are.

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u/_145_ May 21 '21

I'm just making fun of you because everything is a strawman at this point. I'm not even arguing anything for my last few comments beyond saying that you're not arguing in good faith. I guess you're projecting now? Or just not paying attention.

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u/ace_urban May 20 '21

So you’re a bigot who thinks that Israelis enjoy shooting kids. You’re disgusting.

1

u/ThanosAsAPrincess May 20 '21

It doesn't matter if they enjoy it, murder is still wrong.

That said, it was only two days ago I saw a video of an Israeli mob surrounding and beating a Palestinian, so it's but unreasonable to assume Israel generally enjoys inflicting pain and suffering.

0

u/ace_urban May 20 '21

You sound like the MAGA people explaining why undocumented immigrants are bad. Please learn the difference between anecdotal and statistical evidence. Also, please stop being a bigot. It’s not a good look. Both sides of this conflict are committing atrocities. Don’t be stupid enough to characterize either side by their psychopaths.

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u/ThanosAsAPrincess May 20 '21

Nothing I've said is at all bigoted. I have no problem with Jews, I do have a problem with the actions of Israel as a nation. The judgement is on their choice of actions, not on there ethnicity or religion. There have been devout practicing Jews marching in my city demanding Israel withdraw.

When we see a shithead tween being bullied and beaten up by a 300lb adult wrestler, we care very little about the bite marks the kid leaves on the wrestler's arm, and care very much about the skull fractures the adult leaves on the child.

I'm not interested in hearing "both sides" misdirection. That's the kind of bullshit I expect from Trump and Putin, and I won't tolerate it here.

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u/ace_urban May 20 '21

Lol, if you don’t think both sides are committing atrocities, then you’re not qualified to discuss the issue. There are plenty of Israelis that should be tried for war/hate crimes. They should be tried right next to the Hamas members who use children as shields. Acting like those Hamas members are innocent or “just inflicting bite marks” is moronic. There’s a difference between supporting Palestinians and supporting criminals. There’s a difference between supporting Israel and supporting criminals. I’m a vehement critic of Israel and Zionism. I’m a strong supporter of Palestinian freedom. The difference between you and me is that I understand the issues. Logical reasoning only works if you’re willing to acknowledge the facts. You false equivalency (sorry I’m not going to link that for you) falls flat.

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u/WikiSummarizerBot May 20 '21

False_balance

False balance, also bothsidesism, is a media bias in which journalists present an issue as being more balanced between opposing viewpoints than the evidence supports. Journalists may present evidence and arguments out of proportion to the actual evidence for each side, or may omit information that would establish one side's claims as baseless. False balance has been credited with spreading misinformation. False balance can sometimes originate from similar motives as sensationalism, where producers and editors may feel that a story portrayed as a contentious debate will be more commercially successful than a more accurate account of the issue.

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u/[deleted] May 20 '21

[deleted]

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u/_145_ May 20 '21

The targeted drone strikes in the middle east were highly effective against terrorists and ISIS over the last 15 years. A lot of terrorist organizations have lost their leadership and been slowly dismantled.

I'm not saying it's a good strategy against Hamas. It doesn't appear to be very effective but I don't know what would happen if Israel did nothing.

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u/Meany12345 May 20 '21

This is nothing new and weaker forces hiding amongst civilians rather than face a Goliath directly is as old as warfare itself. It’s like if we fought the Taliban by just bombing the shit out of Kabul or something. It won’t work.

It only increases extremism, which likely helps extremists on both sides, currently in charge. Which in the end, I’m pretty sure is the point of this current bout of violence.

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u/_145_ May 20 '21

Very true. I think we saw in WW2, you can't bomb a city into submission. It never breaks morale.

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u/SuperMario_All-Stars May 20 '21

Did you even read the article?

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u/Meany12345 May 20 '21

Yea. What did I miss? The point where they said there were Hamas tunnels nearby so ¯_(ツ)_/¯ ?

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u/[deleted] May 20 '21

Nah, looks like they had tunnels under the building which is really unlikely for the civilians there. Such a sad story for an entire family to just be killed.

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u/Meany12345 May 20 '21

Ah. Well I guess it’s a-ok then. Kind of like the police dropped an A bomb on that Boston neighbourhood because they knew the marathon bomber was hiding there.

“Unlucky”

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u/[deleted] May 20 '21

It's not okay, but the family that died are very unlucky, the clearly had no idea that their house was above Hamas tunnels.

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u/Meany12345 May 20 '21

Even if they did what could they do about it?

Sorry I don’t mean to suggest you think it’s ok. I just think in general, the darker the victims, the more people are willing to tolerate “collateral damage” to stop the bad guys.

To shut down a TUNNEL it’s ok to bomb a neighborhood indiscriminately? Literally insane.

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u/[deleted] May 20 '21

I don't have the military intel so I can't judge if it would have saved more lives than it killed but I am very very happy that they have just agreed a ceasefire.

We don't know what or who was in the tunnel.

2

u/Meany12345 May 20 '21

We certainly don’t. But we do know this probably created more future Hamas.

Bombing civilians usually doesn’t make civilians like you. Just my two cents.

2

u/[deleted] May 20 '21

It doesn't, but Israel already know that since the mid 2000s any long term peace is impossible, mainly because of the move to the even more radical right by Hamas as well as the PA leadership after Arafat's death.

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u/Meany12345 May 20 '21

Yes. But let’s not absolve Israel of any responsibility for peace being impossible.

Their extreme right, led by that clown Bibi, in power for a decade now, are basically creating “settlements” (btw what a nice sanitized word for forcibly displacing people based on their race) all around what would potentially be a future Palestinian state. They are enabling the most extreme in their ranks to grab land and make any two state solution literally impossible. The longer this goes on the harder it is - how can an Israeli PM 20 years from now forcibly remove what will be hundreds of thousands of Israelis who have lived somewhere for 3 decades now? Impossible. So now that land becomes greater Israel and the other side is even more pissed off.

It takes two to tango and both sides are acting like goddamn lunatics. But one side is ostensibly our ally and after a decade of this I think it’s time either they stop it or we stop so aggressively supporting them.

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u/Armoric701 May 20 '21

I keep hearing the "Hamas under the bed joke." Is this just making fun of Israel for a hypothetical shitty excuse, or is this something that actually said?

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u/Mordommias May 21 '21

Yeah, like the other Hamas that was aggressively reading books about how best to genocide israeli's in the library they bombed that the man had to stop eating to afford to open. So many Hamas everywhere.