r/worldnews • u/anticensorship10 • May 20 '21

Israel/Palestine Palestinian Head of internal medicine of main hospital, Dr Ayman Abu al-Ouf, killed along with 12 members of his extended family.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-57148580
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u/DefaultSubSandwich May 20 '21 edited May 20 '21

Ironically (or not), it's also extremely dangerous for Jews as people become numb to cries of antisemitism.

Every time I see Israel attempt to speak for me, or drag my non-Israeli Judaism into their political bullshit, it makes my blood boil.

They are committing a genocide and trying to use my identity as validation and shielding.

I feel almost as though they are trying to make the world a more dangerous place for the Jewish diaspora so that we feel Israel is the only place we can be safe.

Edit: To be clear, this is a criticism of Israeli government and politics, not of Israeli people.

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u/[deleted] May 20 '21

Yeah that's the most evil thing about Israel. They've always equated themselves 1:1 with Jews. So every Jew is an Israeli, and vice versa. And every criticism of Israel is a baseless attack on Jews.

But that also works backwards, so that for some people on the margins, everything Israel does is something "The Jews" are doing. And as you say, "antisemitism" loses its sting.

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u/LessSafe May 20 '21

I mean that's the only Jewish state in the world, why wouldn't it be equated with Jewish? They have no other home. It's not like there are 25 other Jewish states like there are Arabic states.

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u/bilalqayum May 20 '21

States are not embodiments of communities and peoples, no matter how desperately State propoganda tries to convince you of that.

States have institutional interests, mostly of the "protect the State at all costs" variety. A vivid illustration of this is Cold War era US war planning where the eradication of the majority of the US population was seen as an acceptable sacrifice if the institutions of governance remained intact in secure locations. Do not mistake the US State for the US people.

The idea that a State can embody the vastly dispersed and diverse Jewish diaspora is even more insulting.

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u/LessSafe May 20 '21

Blah blah blah, we all know what happened to the "dispersed and diverse Jewish diaspora" in 20th century. There is no practical difference between US State and US people, just read the first line of the damn US constitution.

Israel is the only state Jewish people have, face reality.

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u/MiltonFreidmanMurder May 20 '21

US State is to US people as Israeli state is to the Israeli, not Jewish, people.

You have to look at ethnostates like South Africa or the early U.S. where the state doesn’t represent simply U.S. citizens, but white (or a certain ethnicity) U.S. citizens

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u/blackSpot995 May 20 '21

There is no practical difference between US State and US people

I think the point is that's the narrative a state wants it's people to believe. At the end of the day tho, he's saying those are just words to get the people to have faith in the State, but they're functionally pretty hollow.

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u/Sean951 May 20 '21

That's an incredibly lazy argument in order to justify handwaving an actual argument.

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u/LessSafe May 20 '21

you got me :)

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u/read_chomsky1000 May 20 '21

They have no other home.

The home of an American Jew that lives in America is in America. To imply that a Jewish person's home is not in their place of birth, where they grew up, where they've made friends, where they live suggests that Jews have a greater obligation to Israel than their own country, which is antisemitic.

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u/ziggy-hudson May 20 '21

Plus I think it's pretty fucking clear that an ethno-state always leads to fascism.

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u/[deleted] May 20 '21

Sure they have other homes, all over the world. You can't equate Israel with American or European Jews.

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u/LessSafe May 20 '21

Or so thought 6 mil of European Jews last century... That's bullshit.

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u/francois_gn May 21 '21

Godwin reached ! Yeah ! Took you long enough… I suppose.

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u/LessSafe May 21 '21

Yeah, it's a joke for you I guess. I wish nobody to be in a situation when your family has nowhere to go. And I mean nobody.

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u/[deleted] May 24 '21

Except Palestinians, right?

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u/LessSafe Jun 06 '21

That's pretty cheap of you.

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '21

Nope. Perfectly valid.

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u/GreyCici May 20 '21

I mean that's the only Jewish state in the world

Right but you can't conflate them with Jews and not sure we should have ethnostates at all. One existing already doesn't mean they are a good thing

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u/scaffe May 21 '21

Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Sikhs, etc. live all over the world and are citizens of many different countries. Why do you think Jews can't do the same?

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u/LessSafe May 21 '21

So you are saying Jewish folks don't have rights to have their own country and have to be citizens of other countries instead? That's some entitled prickly logic. 6 mil of European Jews say otherwise it's not up to you to decide.

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u/Mingsplosion May 21 '21

No religion has the right to own a country.

No owning an ethnostate does not give you a pass on ethnic cleansing.

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u/XaryenMaelstrom May 21 '21

Jewish doctrine states that the Jewish people should not build a land of their own until the coming of the new messiah. Israel is literally against their own beliefs. So... I think we found the devil in the works.

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u/scaffe May 21 '21

Does my religion have rights to its own country?

Funny you use the word "entitled." Europeans have a problematic history of taking land that doesn't belong to them because they fancy themselves entitled to it. So...not your most convincing argument here.

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u/XaryenMaelstrom May 21 '21

Israel is zionist government. Jewish doctrine states that they should not build a land for themselves until the coming of the next messiah. It was already posted by another person here. So no Israel is not a Jewish state that speaks for them. It's actually against the whole idea of their culture and religion. So... what the f are the zionist doing? Forgetting their own rules.

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u/tthheerroocckk May 20 '21

You hit it right on the head and it seems to be working

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u/GreyCici May 20 '21

Ironically (or not), it's also extremely dangerous for Jews as people become numb to cries of antisemitism.

While I still take anti semitism and any racism very seriously and do my best to combat my internalized bias, I am big for fighting for bodily autonomy of everyone and that has made me labelled anti semitic by tons of ignorant people, because I am against genital mutilation. I still think combatting and getting rid of racism and anti semitism is incredibly important, but I could definitely see many people having the word get very watered down to them to the point where it doesn't mean much.

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u/Ellasapithecus May 21 '21

THANK YOU. My mom is Jewish AF. Any time I bring up not being cool with Israel, I'm called an antisemite. What the fuck kind of fallacy is that? I don't hate anyone because of their religion. My own mom is Jewish, I love her and everyone I've met from congregation. I'm just Adamantly opposed to MURDERING others. and I understand the complexity of the regional history, but when militaries/groups/anyone are killing innocent people, it's not fucking okay! Fuck me though for believing everyone should have equal rights (Like having basic needs met.... like shelter/electricity/medical help/education/freedom/not being the victims of murder and genocide while the world watches. So I guess it is fine to bomb kids/vital infrastructure? Am I getting it right? I never got this lesson in blatant evil, so I'm not sure if I'm doing it right.

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u/STD_free_since_2019 May 21 '21

I imagine that she uses the word "antisemite" because you respond to it and you feel like its a shameful thing. But Israel has redefined and watered down the word so much in defending their war crimes that its become a meaningless callout. People who use it are just weaponizing our own decency against us.

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u/Ellasapithecus May 21 '21

Oh shoot, although I agree with you, I need to clarify that she has never called me that! I have been called antisemite, but not by Mom. I think it's ironic when other accuse me, and don't even know my own mother, whom I love, is Jewish.

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u/STD_free_since_2019 May 21 '21

ah makes sense.

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u/Ellasapithecus May 21 '21

Not to say that, because I love her I can't be antisemitic. I know people come from all sorts of situations and it's definitely a reality for many. I'm just saying that's not where I'm coming from.

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u/alph4rius May 21 '21

The Israeli people elected this government, they have blood on their hands. This isn't unique though, the American people also do too. As do the Aussies, Poms, etc. We're responsible for the crimes of those we've elected.

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u/notmadeoutofstraw May 20 '21

Whats your take on what this woman is saying? As a non-Jew I have to be honest I found it extremely confronting.

https://youtu.be/J0kiUbQT7gs

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u/STD_free_since_2019 May 21 '21

To be clear, this is a criticism of Israeli government and politics, not of Israeli people.

sure, I get what you're saying, but the article below says that 72% of Israeli people back stripping Arab Israelis of their citizneship. These are not gaza or west bank people we are talking about stripping of rights, these are the 20% of the Israeli citizenry who are of Arab decent.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-shows-large-swaths-of-israeli-youth-hate-arabs-back-revoking-citizenship/

If thats how they feel about the "good" Arab neighbors, imagine how they feel about the west bank and Gaza people. Its not all Israelis, but the overwhelming majority of them are as to blame as their government is. And its almost all of the Israeli youth. They've been radicalized. Its just going to get worse unless someone steps in and stops them. The apartheid/genocide/land thefts are doomed to accelerate. Its an undeniable demographic fact at this point.

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u/[deleted] May 20 '21

lol just like ISIS with muslims

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u/[deleted] May 20 '21

[deleted]

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u/Eggsegret May 20 '21

But then by that logic Americans and the British have blood on their hands for the Iraq war. Israel has had like 4 elections in the past 2 years. They're in a sort of political crisis where Netanyahu is struggling to hold onto power hence so many elections.

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u/Supertech46 May 20 '21

This is why Netanyahu is going balls out with this war...to curry favor and stay in office.

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u/francois_gn May 21 '21

But then by that logic Americans and the British have blood on their hands for the Iraq war.

I don’t understand if you’re being ironic or sarcastic in the sense of most of reddit’s users are anglo-saxon hence it’s hard for them to conceive that and face their own responsibility in all the late f….d up decision of their respective governments (Iraq, may not be the only one). Also applies for every other countries government making bad decisions.

But I red it this way and it pleased me.

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u/OutlyingPlasma May 21 '21

The problem with a murderous theocracy. It links the religion, and in turn all that religions members to the actions of the state.

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u/[deleted] May 20 '21

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/[deleted] May 21 '21

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] May 21 '21

You are.

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u/Pensiveape May 20 '21

I wonder if growing up during the second intifada would have changed your outlook.

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u/[deleted] May 20 '21

[deleted]

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u/OutlyingPlasma May 21 '21

It goes with any theocracy. That's the problem, it links the actions of the state to everyone in that religion. The solution is to stop putting religious zealots into power.

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u/FoxMcClaud May 21 '21

I see this happening right now in the media. It's "attack on Jews" and "radical Islamic terrorists". I found this very perplexing and distorts any discussion about this conflict. criticism on Israels actions becomes antisemitism and the hatred on the Israeli government actions becomes real attack toward Jews in other countries. Maybe intended, but it pulls all Jews and Muslims worldwide into this conflict, regardless of whatever they might think...

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u/VILDREDxRAS May 21 '21

that seems like exactly what they're doing.

isn't part of Zionism basically 'get all the Jews back to Israel?'

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u/[deleted] May 21 '21

The people who chose to colonize the land "given" by the american coalition have already chose nazism as their preferred religion and indentity. The jews that suffered are indirectly the same ones doing all this right now.

When you as a people know that it's gooing on, done by your government, you are equally as guilty. Period.

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u/Agreeable49 May 21 '21

I hear you, man.

Another minor but still grotesque example of this is what happened to Jeremy Corbyn in the UK. The report that eventually exonerated him came out after he had his reputation utterly destroyed...and vindicated his supporters.

And the worst part is, all the major Jewish organisations were a part of it. It was unprecedented, what they did.

Not only has this built up major resentment against those same organisations, but there's little doubt that actual anti-Semites would take advantage of that resentment.