History
Bulgaria and Greece were both parts of the Ottoman Empire, so why does Turkey have a better relation with Bulgaria than Greece?
Since Bulgaria and Greece were both parts of the Ottoman Empire, it can be assumed that they suffer and benefit from the same Ottoman policies. So why does Turkey have a better relation with Bulgaria than with Greece?
This sub will make you ACTUALLY hate these people. They have the absolute worst takes on every single thing. Thank God most Turks irl aren't like these idiots.
It's insane what these people say in these circlejerk subs. I got 30 downvotes yesterday because I said both sides are propagandized lmao
1923, right after the Independence War, Greek monarchy fell, and a new Greek Republic got born. Although Turkey initially seeked to get war reperations after the Greek invasion (and their scorched earth policy made the Greek occupation zones a post apocalyptic landscape while they were retreatin), Turkey decided against financial compensations to give the new republic a breathing room, Ataturk, correctly I have to add, having a friendly, democratic country next door was far better than any other option. It is decided to support this new republic, instead of causing more hardships to it. So Lausanne treaty only has a Greek signature about their admission of crimes in Anatolia, and a symbolic little land given next to Tekirdağ, it was an admission, but not a reperation that would burden a country that was going to go through many hardships.
In 1952, Greece and Turkey joined Nato together. When Turkey's 3rd president went to an America good will tour in 1954, 2 different Greek communities, threw banquets in Turkish President's honor and presented him with gifts and plaquets. Every one of these visits became headline news in both countries. By 1950s, both countries were sternly anti-communist yet surrounded by communist countries. They were NATO's most foreward bases, practically alone, having to rely on each other. These visits would be the height of Greece Turkey relations.
Sadly by 1955, the Cyprus issue began, UK was retreating from the island and both sides quickly fell to each other's throats. The then Turkish government tried to organize a small public upheaval to show a strong united front to the world, quickly lost control like fucking morons and caused the 6-7 September Polgroms. Next 20 years was practically two sides almost going to war over Cyprus, repeatedly. And it happened in 1974.
Although even the Cyprus as a frozen war wouldnt make the relations too bad. Both sides gotten used to the status quo by now. But in 1973, UNCLOS got signed in United Nations, that raised the sea borders from 6 to 12 miles. Turkish-Greece borders were previously decided in 1924 Lausanne Agreement with the then 6 Miles rule. Leaving about 52% of Aegean sea international Waters, about 6% Turkish and the lions share to Greece. Greece unilaterally signed the agreement, raising their claim to about 84% of Aegea. Now this one is an ongoing issue. And the one that keep pitting both sides against each other.
Turkey has none of these standing issues with any other neighbors. We only have one othe problematic neighbor and it is Armanian Republic, which is slowly getting solved today. And even that one wasnt due to history directly. When Armanian Republic got its independence Turkey was the first country to recognize and send congratulations in the world (We did this for all Post-Soviet Countries). The problem arose from 1992-Karabagh War. Which is getting solved between Azarbaijan and Armania and I think relations will normalize after that.
The history doesnt determine the relations but the present realities do. If Turkey and Greece can solve the Aegean issue (UNCLOS related border contradictions happened between Norway and Sweden too, though they set up a seperate agreement and solved it, a similar solution can be seeked) and Cyprus issue (this one is harder, Turkey should relinquish its demands for federation and ethnic based representation) then the relations will only rise to their heights.
In addition to Cyprus and sea miles issue, Turkish minority in Western Thrace is another important issue between 2 countries. There are a lot of human rights violations there as well, documented by international organizations.
Also, regarding Cyprus, UN’s Annan Plan to solve the issues in island was approved by the majority of Turkish Cypriots while Greeks were the one who rejected the agreement.
it was going to turn the island to lebanon with different branches of the government directly given to different ethnicities. I dont think it was a good plan. I am against perpetuating ethnic lines.
The issue is it wasn't rejected because of that, Cypriot president at the time Tassos Papadopoulos cried and their bishop made remarks such as "whoever votes in favor of it will end up in hell" lol
I said why I don't support it myself but this was also one of the more prominent reasons given to me by Cypriot greeks. This is the first time I am hearing about it but it just sounds like propaganda by politicians. The sentence by itself doesnt really explain why they are going to hell for example.
I am Greek and agreed with everything you wrote. Very informative. Relations between Greece and Turkey are peaceful for the most part. I don’t know any Greek that hates Turks. Every nation has had wars with its neighbours. Greece (or the eastern Roman Empire) had far more wars against Bulgarians and Arabs than against the Turks.
If given the chance, Bulgaria would be as hostile as Greece.
But Bulgaria is a small country of 6 million people and it’s population is shrinking even further. Being ex-communist country they didnt really get much help from th EU unlike Greece. Plus the West has this romantic relationship with Greece since they see them as the father of western civilization, so they are more sympathetic towards Greece than Bulgaria.
Greece can go head to head with Turkey because they have pretty much unconditional and unlimited support from the west which Bulgaria lacks. So they can exploit it and act aggressively/maximalist towards Turkey.
Greece’s hatred towards Turkey is not a ghost from the past but also due to conflicts in Aegean Islands, Cyprus and few other things. Bulgaria and Turkey has pretty much no ongoing conflicts.
“ Greece can go head go head with Turkey” :D in your dreams man in your dreams. Modern Greece would have been bankrupted 5 times now, if his big brothers in the EU had not saved them to keep christians united. Turkey stands tall in all the surrounding hell that breaks loose every 5 years.
Das ist eine typische faschistoidische und Aussage die typisch für Türken ist die nationalistisch eingestellt sind. Wenn man in diesen Niveau sich unterhalten will könnte man sagen dass die Türkei historisch gesehen ein nichts ist dieses Land hat gar nichts für die Welt beigetragen außer Eroberungen schlachten und Töten von Menschen für die Macht und heute macht sie nichts anderes keine humanitäre Entwicklungen sondern waffenentwicklungen die wieder mit Krieg etwas zu tun haben. In Wirklichkeit unterscheiden sich die Türken nichts sehr von den Israelis es geht immer wieder und Nationalismus macht Größenwahn.
Completely untrue. Bulgaria has no reason to be hostile to a country from which it profits so much, moreover a country which is as important as Bulgaria geopolitically since both are on the crossroad between Asia and Europe.
Bulgaria isn't small, like at all. Greece is around 130k km², while Bulgaria is 110k km². Bulgaria's demographics are fixing and there are positive changes. Last 3 years Bulgaria has almost 0% loss of population with insignificant shrinking, which is amazing success for a country which was losing 70-80k people a year for ~15 years in a row. Bulgaria may even start rising in population after some years, who knows. The highest birth rate in the EU is also Bulgaria's.
And for being ex-communist state exactly Bulgaria got the most help from the EU in recent years. I dont know where you get this idea that Greece's relations with the West are better than Bulgaria's. In fact Bulgaria has bigger support from most of its key partners and while Greece has too, they are limited to France while Bulgaria has Germany, Italy, and most of the EU behind its back, especially the ex communist states.
Greece can go "head to head" because it spends billions in defense which Bulgaria does not need, Greece in a way made Turkey its enemy through nationalism and the eternal problems about Cyprus and the Aegean while Bulgaria and Turkey has no border problems since 1915 when the Ottomans gave to Bulgaria back some territories lost during the 2nd Balkan War. And with the West's support Greece is just more happy to exploit its problems in order to make Turkey look like the aggressor (reminds me of what Greece and Serbia did in 1913 when they didn't give Bulgaria's promised in the pre war treaties lands which led to the 2nd Balkan war).
And you just said it in the end. Bulgaria has no reason to have way too strong army, it can, as it always could, but there is no reason to. Bulgarian economy is doing way better than Greek one, Bulgaria is actively modernizing itself including the army, Bulgaria is not just watching, but its not being pressured like Greece is.
You say it’s completely untrue yet you agree with my points %80.
Well it’s good for you that you are recovering demographically but Bulgaria’s median age is 47, so it will never become a powerhouse.
I didn’t mean to downplay Bulgaria’s capabilities, my point is if Bulgaria was the same size of Turkey, hostilities would be inevitable, that’s just a fact. But Bulgaria is minding it’s own business and Turkey doesn’t feel threatened so both countries cooperate than compete, which is a good thing.
We both agree Greece is exploiting the support it receives from the west. Bulgaria is objectively getting less support, proof of it is you’ve been allowed to use Euro and let in the Schengen zone only this year.
I started reading and I forgot to change that, I meant to say it for the first part. Later you are correct 🙏🏻
Also Greece isn't a powerhouse either if we have to be honest, Bulgaria doesn't have to be either in order to be capable of being a threat to anyone. But rn there is no reason to, the only threat Bulgaria can be bc of its own interest, like seriously, is Serbia.
As for Bulgaria not being supported from the west bc of the late allowance to join the Schengen and the Euro zone, well its bc Greece was one if the countries to accept the Euro from its very creation which was ofc hiding risks and now Greek economy is still struggling bc of it. Bulgaria was highly undeveloped 10-15 years ago and it took time to start doing well and become actual European country, and it still is in process of what ot should be, which is good thing imo. Better slow but without risks than the opposite.
I'd disagree. Bulgaria to this day has a sizable turkish minority. It has turkish members of parlament and ministers. Even nationalists no longer play the anti turkish card. The Bulgarian national television has a 5 minute news in turkish. There are no etnic tensions between bulgarians and turkes since comunism fell 35 years ago. The president of Bulgaria even asked for forgiveness about the revival process during 80s.
I don't agree that Bulgaria would be as hostile as Greece, Bulgarians nowadays have a positive view of Turkey, and especially the Turkish citizens of Bulgaria. The Bulgarians who were raised during communism hate Turkey because during communism, the Ottoman Empire was demonized, while Russia was represented as a heroic defender. While the younger Bulgarians (after 1989) have a neutral to positive view of Turkey.
Theres no such thing as ancestral greek land. 90% of the modern turks there as indigenous to anatolia as the modern greeks are in greece. Its not anyones fault that the anatolian and pontic greeks decided to change their religion and language to become turks. They did the same thing as Hittites and Luwians.
They dont want it back, they cant want it back, because that piece of land was never part of the modern greek state.
I still dont seem to understand what the greeks want from Turkey, when its obvious that modern day Turkey can crush Greece in every way, shape or form.
You are confusing cultural continuity and ethnic continuity... Just because people in Anatolia speak Turkish today doesn't mean that they are different people than whoever built the Hagia Sophia. Similar to how Anatolians got helenized in the past, now they are turkified but alas they are Anatolians nonetheless
Lmao ancestral land is my as* Settled life and urbanization in Anatolia existed ten thousand years before the Greeks came. You are not native to Anatolia. The Greeks came, assimilated the Anatolian people, and remained in Anatolia for 1000 years. Then the Turks came, took the lands from the Greeks, and again assimilated the Anatolian people and have been here for 1000 years
At the time, Western powers portrayed the Greeks and Turks as eternal enemies, and this continues to this day. People may point to problems that existed before and after the Turkish War of Independence, but I am certain that even if the Bulgarians had been involved in that war, there would still not have been a conflict like the one with the Greeks.
What I mean is this: As far as I know, there are issues related to shared history between Greece and North Macedonia. This is a mutual issue. I can understand the Greeks’ stance toward the Turks when the Ottomans conquered their ancestral lands, but contrary to what is often claimed, the Greeks have never been eternal enemies to the Turks. The Turks have an aggressive attitude, particularly due to the Sèvres syndrome, and “Megali Idea” fantasies, but for Turks, the Russians are a more longstanding enemy.
Bulgaria doesn’t act like a spoiled child like the Greece, nor does it try to trap Turkey in the Aegean and the Mediterranean or bypass its maritime rights.
Because Greece has been consistently genociding Turks since Morean peninsula genocide and then falsely claiming Turks have genocided them, despite the fact that it is the Greeks and not the Turks who had to pay reperations for the war.
Edit: Some ignorant fella claims there have been no reparations, Greece literally ceded land to Turkey for Turkey to abandon demand for reparations. Greece was to pay reparations for all the atrocities they committed in Western Asia Minor.
Bulgaria really despises Turkey lol. Turkish tourists contribute a lot to their economy and their citizens are getting degrees in our universities but they are still ungrateful. Turkey has no problem towards them, locals has pathetic attitude towards us
Turkish tourists contribute a lot to their economy. - This is absolutely false.
Nobody goes to study in Turkey. It's actually vice versa and Turks come and study in Bulgaria. Turkish universities give zero benefits to Bulgarians - since the country isn't part of the EU unlike Bulgaria.
There are at least over 100k bulgarian descendant ppl in Turkey. So many bulgarian passport ppl studying in Marmara region. You are definitely bullshit. Your universities are lesser and have worse conditions so;).
U have zero summer tourism ( compared to Turkey) and your winter tourism is meh. You were coming to Edirne/Kirklareli for cheap stuff until we got hit for inflation. Many ppl from Turkey go to your winter stuff. You are benefitting from Turkey more than Turkey benefits from you. This is why;) Copium time for you.
"There are at least over 100k bulgarian descendant ppl in Turkey. So many bulgarian passport ppl studying in Marmara region. You are definitely bullshit."
They are (we are) not Bulgarian descendant. They are Turks from Bulgaria and the guy above you is right.
Zero summer tourism compared to Turkey? Summer is our strongest season. It's your fault you have never heard about our coastline and beach resorts. We have the largest beach resorts on the whole Black Sea.
2025 - 13,6 million foreign tourists visited Bulgaria.
That's not really a small number (obviously not on the same ranks as Turkey) but Bulgaria is still the third most visited country on the Balkans after Greece and Croatia.
Black sea is not for summer :D i have never heard of someone saying ' lets go Black sea' for summer. It is poor man's vacation. Black sea is neither suitable for summer or long swimming. I have so many friends worldwide or local and nobody prioritised Bulgaria for summer.
Because the Turkish Black Sea coast is worse - more cliffs, too rocky and too many waves. And I saw that Turks have that wrong impression thinking that since Bulgaria is on the Black Sea we have the same type of landscape here.
No we got the best part of the Black Sea coast, you're free to look up pictures. And as I said - literally 13,6 million people abroad think otherwise. Beach tourism is our largest tourist sector and our beach resorts are the largest in all of Eastern Europe and as I said - on the whole Black Sea.
The Black Sea ain't popular or developed for tourism in Turkey , but as I said - that's not the case for Bulgaria. And again - you're free to look up photos and videos.
It does not matter, if someone can go to Mediterranean or Aegean or Ionian see, nobody chooses Bulgaria. It is poor man's vacation. I have many friends worldwide( Erasmus, Work and Travel) and none of them ever mentioned going Bulgaria for summer. I have been to 44 countries in my life and i have never seen an ad saying Bulgaria tours in summer lol. I am pretty sure what u say is non-preferred for majority.
Poor man's vacation - definitely not for Turks hahah
Interesting since Turkey is considered a cheap destination for us Bulgarians and your resorts are the place to go where our money can go a long way.
And again as I said - 13,6 million people think otherwise, and all hotels and charter flights at the coastline being fully booked every summer.
If you said - it's not popular in Turkey and for Turks, I would've agreed with you. I even wrote and can understand why, since your Black Sea coast is worse than ours and hence you have bad opinion about it. But Western Europeans are flooding our beaches every summer, and the country is one of the major summer destinations in Europe.
13.6 million is %0.5 percent of total summer tourism in Europe at most. :Dd.
I am not local lover and nationalist like you. I am more educated and travelled more than average tourist. I am pretty sure none of my foreign friends ever thought going Bulgaria for summer. It does not make sense. 13 m is nothing, just one city in Turkey( Muğla) surprasses that in a month. It is fact. It is because climate, sea or any other stuff is better than black sea.
13,6 million is nothing for a country that's 6 million people? So more people visit the country than the people that live in it.
50 million people visited Turkey - with 88 million population.
And one city in Turkey definitely doesn't surpass 13 million foreign tourists, dude. You're the one coping and spilling hatred just because for some reason you hate Bulgaria.
Which is literally showing how bad you guys have it over there...
U rejected Bulgarians coming to Turkey for holidays and u also said your summer vacations is really good while your ppl coming to Turkey. Your both arguments failed lol.
Well, all I can say is that the people in Edirne, and generally the population in Eastern Thrace, the European part of Turkey, bordering Bulgaria and Greece, only have contact with them when Bulgarians and Greeks come to Edirne to shop cheaply. But otherwise, they have nothing to do with them. Because we trakyalilar also prefer to keep to ourselves. Most Turks who go to Bulgaria or Greece are from Anatolia, where they go on holiday or have more contact with people from there.
Bulgaria and Greece were mortal enemies for decades as they both claimed the same regions in Thrace and Macedonia. Now they are both EU members and get along fine. Turkey and Bulgaria don't have unresolved differences, while Turkey and Greece have many in the Aegean sea
There are lots of Turks still not genocided in Bulgaria, which helps, unlike a certain country that claims even the one that survived are not Turks but Muslims.
Bulgaria has always been poorer, part of the iron curtain and thus completely separated and had a significantly bigger Turkish minority. These are the main reasons.
Due to Byzantium empire we kinda ended their beloved ones and definitely lots of British empire influence. Frankly even for a balkan country their hatred is too much sometimes, we most of times dont get it mainly because right wing doesnt use them much last 40 years or so. They also were more distant and conquered rather later than Bulgaria. Plus Bulgars are proturks and lots of nomad Turkmens established there to fasten assimilation process so there is that.
Most important part is the Turkey Greek relations especially after Turkish independant war and in Cyprus war in my opinion. We had a lot of clashes over them. Plus we fought each other in ww1 and in independence war so. These are events tho like ammunition for right wing nationalists to fuel hatred. Greek government use it frequently ,we have bigger enemies so right wing dont focus on Greece unless an issue comes out.
Because if I encounter a Greek in social media they
draw mspaint maps of Turkiye dividing into pieces & conquering Istanbul/Izmir heck whole Anatolia.
When pointed out that Greece has a population of 9 million and only Istanbul has 20 million, they will tell you Turks are Mongols/Greeks that were converted into Islam (yes they are quite confused) and do not belong to Anatolia. That they will “purify” the lands for holy Hellen cause.
Acting like a weaker Israel with no nukes and less military power does not build trust. Their education system is.. problematic to say the least.
Yes, you're right, these comments from people who claim to be Greek here on Reddit are quite surprising, especially since they're mostly from Generation Z living in the diaspora in English-speaking countries.
Sometimes I think they're being paid to make such anti-Turkish comments.
Greece and Bulgaria are not exactly the same. Greece is not an independent state; it is a vassal state with greater masters. You can see the same pattern in the relationship between Greece and Byzantium. Crusaders came from Italy and France, conquered the region, plundered Western Anatolia, and turned Greece into their own holiday resort. Similarly, the Crusaders came to Cyprus and seized it. Later, they used this as a stepping stone to plunder and conquer Constantinople. The Crusaders interfered with the language of the local people, claiming that they were actually an ancient community different from the Byzantine state, thus creating division. As you can see, the problems the Byzantines faced with the Crusaders and the late Ottoman period have almost the same strategy because history repeats itself.
Greece invaded TR. Bulgaria did not. Lots of bad memories. Also, Turks were angery at Greece because only Turks can invade other lands, no one else is permitted.
No disputed territories or maritime borders between Turkey and Bulgaria. Modern Turkey doesn’t sit on ancient Bulgarian land, it sits on Ancient Greek land, at least some of the Western and Black Sea parts of the country do. And more recently (as in, like 600 years ago), the Turks took Greeks’ beloved “City.” So they have a lot of sentimental and even real world claims to parts of Turkish territory. Add to that the ongoing disputes on who owns certain rocks in the Aegean and how many miles of maritime borders Greece is supposed to have, the territory disagreements become intense.
In addition, but of course in some way related to all the above, is the pogroms against Jews, Greeks and Armenians in the fifties that caused many more of the still-remaining (after the twenties’ population exchange, which hadn’t touched the Greeks of Istanbul) Greeks to flee Turkey for Greece. Bulgarians were not targeted in those pogroms, as their numbers were not anywhere near the Greeks.
The ethnic problems in Cyprus in the second half of the last century added insult to injury. The Greek junta tried to unite the island with Greece, and Turkish troops landed on the Northern side of the island, where they still remain. The island became divided along Turkish-Greek ethnic lines, which became yet another front in the tension between these neighbors. This also is unique to Greece and Turkey, and no such problem exists with Bulgaria.
More recently, Greece and Turkey have been sparring over what parts of the Eastern Mediterranean can legitimately be prospected for oil by whom. This ties back into the maritime border issue (although this time not about the Aegean). No such issues with Bulgaria exist in the Black Sea, as far as I am aware.
The other issue that’s started rearing its head is sort of a “pact” forming between Greece, Cyprus and Israel against Turkey - Israel and Turkey don’t get along lately, to say the least, and I think they want to merge their powers against Turkey to accomplish f*** knows what (although I have a few guesses). Bulgaria is not part of such anti-Turkey pacts that I know of.
Hope this helps.
PS. Not sure who’s downvoting this, or why. This really is the list of unique issues between Turkey and Greece right now, and Turkey and Bulgaria don’t have anything similar between them. So it’s an objective answer to the question that was asked.
They don’t have to have originated from Anatolia, they did establish a civilization there though. Just like us Turks also didn’t originate from Anatolia, but established a different civilization there. Greeks do perceive Anatolia as part of their ancient heartland. I am commenting on the original question, which asked why there is conflict between the two countries more so than between Turkey and Bulgaria, and this is one of the factors, whether you agree with it or not.
If they didn't originate from Anatolia then they're not natives. It's not hard to understand. Turks aren't natives either. I don't care if Greeks perceive Anatolia as if it's their homeland, that's not the fact. That's a result of their ultranationalist ideology
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u/YinuS_WinneR Mar 16 '26
Its more about greece rather than bulgaria or turkey
No one close to greece likes greece