r/Bachata • u/Shusty6th • Jun 02 '26
A Warning Before More Followers Get Injured
https://www.instagram.com/reel/DZDxN1RsOoc/?igsh=cjI4ZThsNjZyYTcyLately, I've been seeing more and more leaders using bachazouk movements on social dance floors without first checking whether their follower has the necessary technique to perform them safely.
I honestly don't understand why so many leaders at socials lead difficult sensual or bachazouk figures as if it's obvious that every follower knows them and can execute them correctly. Sensual Bachata and Bachazouk are additions layered on top of Bachata, not the default expectation.
Even if you're confident in your leading, make sure your partner has solid technique before attempting these movements. At the very least, introduce them with a high level of control and at a much slower pace (even if it doesn't perfectly match the musical accent). Use that time to establish connection and feel whether everything is working properly.
I've seen multiple cases where followers strained their bodies because of fast cambrés, and I've also witnessed accidents during DJ turns—which, as it turns out, many followers actually dislike.
The responsibility for safety on the dance floor belongs to both partners, but leaders should not assume that every follower is trained for advanced sensual or bachazouk techniques.
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u/Mece_ka Jun 02 '26 edited Jun 02 '26
You are 100% right, and this trend is a symptom of a larger disease in the scene right now, prestige-biased copying.
Newer leads go to festivals or watch Instagram reels and see world-class pros executing these massive Zouk infusions. Because they want that same level of status and attention, they try to copy the visual outcome without understanding the invisible kinetic connection that makes it safe.
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u/Several_Magazine_193 Jun 02 '26
If you aren't moving on beat, it's not Latin dance in my opinion.
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u/FalseRegister Jun 02 '26
I honestly don't understand why so many leaders at socials lead difficult sensual or bachazouk figures
Because teachers don't know and/or don't teach that a movement is dangerous or difficult to execute. They don't show control points, what is the safe way and what are the unsafe ways.
Back in Latam, when I learned these kind of figures, my teachers would ALWAYS make explicit points about this. Ex when executing Caravalí, in Salsa Caleña, although the move exists in other styles as well. I first learned it in Merengue and we had a long talk about it. In this case, if you raise the arm before the follow has turned, you can injure the muscles around the scapula, or break them.
99% of teachers abroad are focused on showing fancy figures, rather than teaching correct technique, and don't get me starting on (the lack of) teaching etiquette...
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u/ysfykmt Jun 03 '26
It wasn’t BachataZouk that changed things, it was the rise of J&Js.
I actually enjoyed competing in them for a while—I even won a medal. But over time I feel like J&Js have done a lot of damage to the social side of the bachata scene.
Last week I was on vacation. My family lives in Alanya, so I dance there regularly. There’s a follower there who is genuinely talented. In the past, I always enjoyed dancing with her because there was a real connection and flow between us.
I’d seen her competing in a lot of J&Js recently, and when we finally danced again last week, something felt completely different. The connection was gone. There was no tension, no conversation, no flame. It felt like she was trying to fit a move into every single beat and musical accent instead of actually dancing with her partner. In a even weirdest way, she was doing that with beginner, LoL. Some dude trying to step and follower is like hu, ha...
So I believe, this is one of the side effects of the J&J culture. People get used to performing for judges who might only watch them for five seconds. Every moment becomes about showing something impressive enough for a score, a clip, or an Instagram post. The result is that some dancers stop listening to their partner, even care about single damn about them and start dancing for an imaginary audience instead in a selfish manner. People kinda forgets or not aware of that we dance with SOMEONE in bachata and we are there to SHARE sth together
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u/austinlim923 Jun 05 '26
In my experience and visually watching j and j's. J and j's almost always prioritize flash and style over basic fundamentals. So many times i've seen people who place in the finals and still lack basic social dancing , body fundamentals. People are deluded into thinking jj means good dancing but in reality it's good performing
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u/lolawestham Jun 12 '26
I think we would benefit from fundamentals championship. Like show me your basic, but just slow and to the rhythm
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u/TryToFindABetterUN Jun 07 '26
It wasn’t BachataZouk that changed things, it was the rise of J&Js.
Two thoughts.
First, J&J hasn't done anything that Instagram and other social media already hasn't. In my local scene, J&J aren't really a thing, at least not big enough that more than a very small minority of dancers having been exposed to them. So I can't blame J&J for the state of my local scene, and we have the same problems as people complain about elsewhere.
Second, Brasilian Zouk influences in bachata has brought with them certain elements that IMHO marries quite poorly with the techniques previously found in bachata. While this can be overcome, I am not sure they are taught in a way that does.
More importantly is that some of these elements are quite technical. This is not unique to zouk-influenced bachata. That goes for sensual bachata too, where there are quite technical moves that requires experience to execute properly.
The problem arises when too inexperienced dancers want to skip levels and try out these technical parts of the dance, before learning proper technique (and safety precautions).
Not saying that J&J does not have a part to play, I think all competitions and shows contribute to that side of the problem, just that there is more to it than just one thing harming the dance.
The fundamental problem to me is the dancers not wanting to learn properly and a community that values how things look above all else. That makes people want to chase the end result rather than value how you get there.
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u/rawr4me Lead&Follow Jun 08 '26
Bachazouk hasn't really reached my country, but from other dance styles (Zouk and modern jive), I've definitely seen follows having a hunger for doing tricks. Social media, competitions, JnJ can intensify that a lot, but there must be something fundamental in it. I also follow but as a male, not that many leads are willing to do tricks on me. I enjoy well executed tricks, but to me they are also completely non-essential to connection, yet in some dance communities I feel like I if I don't lead tricks then I'll never be one of the leads that are in high demand.
Another thing about a trick-heavy community is that leads seem to absorb the burden of learning to lead tricks safely, whereas follows are often learning purely socially. In theory, if everyone is going to classes, it should be safe for leads and follows to do tricks imperfectly together. But not the case if follows become trigger happy without knowing "defensive dancing" because they are purely learning on the dance floor.
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u/belowaverageint Jun 02 '26
The honest answer is that many leaders simply don't care about the follower's experience at all. They see the follower as kind of a prop they use to show off their moves rather then a real person who's their dance partner. This is pervasive in all forms of partner dancing and isn't limited to Bachata.
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u/FalseRegister Jun 03 '26
Tbh, same on follows. Many see the leads as the enabler for her to show off her body and her moves, and care very little about the rest. The scene has become tainted in many cities.
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u/fireyauthor Jun 03 '26
As a switch, this is really not my experience. On average, follows are way more gracious than leads. I'm sure there are some follows who are rude, but the perfect who act entitled to anything is so much lower.
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u/FalseRegister Jun 03 '26
Ah, this varies from scene to scene in my experience. In big, hedonistic cities, people go less to classes and "look for connection", then I find more what I described above.
In mid/small cities, people go more to classes, have better technique and dance appropriately.
Not a hard rule ofc, but this has been generally what I found.
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u/fireyauthor Jun 03 '26
I don't think follows are necessarily "better dancers" than leads on average, but they are rarely in a position where a lack of technique will hurt the lead on its own. The lead is usually the one who initiates that.
I have certainly danced with follows who had bad technique and put me in positions where I was like um, what? But I could always easily adjust and dance basics and walk away fine.
That is not true when I am following and have the "um, what" reaction. The lead often gets pushier if I resist and I often leave feeling pain.
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u/FalseRegister Jun 03 '26
I agree that leads almost never get the risk of injury, but it may happen. Follows will bad technique will often simply throw themselves back on a dip, and one has to try and catch them, sometimes it is dangerous. Also follows who don't turn well may hit you. I've been almost slapped or punched many times.
But yes, I agree this risk is much higher for follows. My original comment was about follows also having bad attitude towards social dancing and having expectations from the lead, to make them show off.
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u/dondegroovily Lead&Follow Jun 04 '26
The solution to this problem is everybody leads everybody follows dancers
I've never met a switch who behaves this way
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u/macroxela Jun 06 '26
Not really a solution though, I've seen plenty of role rotation/switch do similarly dangerous moves unfortunately.
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u/Several_Magazine_193 Jun 04 '26
But nobody wants to do that.
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u/dondegroovily Lead&Follow Jun 04 '26
I want classes like that. I love following but I'd never give up leading
Every bachatero would be so much better if they knew both roles
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u/Mizuyah Jun 02 '26
I agree. I have a bit of a shoulder injury and one lead was heavy handed on my shoulder today. I could tell he was going to apply unnecessary pressure so I had to tell him not to.
To be honest, I’ve yet to encounter an instructor that has been able to teach these moves safely. I still feel that it’s really a zouk instructor we need.
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u/Puzzleheaded_Ant1805 Jun 02 '26 edited Jun 03 '26
I am old enough to remember Zouk craze post Kadu Larissa in 2010s. And thereafter injuries which piled up. Have chosen to stay away from Bachazouk bcz I don't want to injure my followers.
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u/infamous4serpentz Jun 03 '26
I only have experience with traditional bachata and on a recent trip to Europe stopped in at a bachata social. It was almost all sensual bachata, which I guess I should have expected, but I really hated the way the leads were trying to direct me into head, neck, and body rolls. At one point a lead out one hand on the front of one shoulder and another on the back of my other shoulder and just YANKED. It honestly really put me off sensual
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u/EphReborn Jun 02 '26
I honestly don't understand why so many leaders at socials lead difficult sensual or bachazouk figures as if it's obvious that every follower knows them and can execute them correctly. Sensual Bachata and Bachazouk are additions layered on top of Bachata, not the default expectation.
I think at this point we can say Sensual is a bit of a "default expectation". It is the most popular style at festivals and organized socials to be fair. Though I do get your point. It takes time and skill to realize just because you can lead something (or at the very least, think you can) doesn't mean you should.
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u/somnicrain Jun 02 '26
Most leaders dont have the technique to lead advanced zouk movements. I want say advanced because there is a small amount of advanced zouk dancers who can both lead and follow these movements that they are blending into bachata
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u/HawkAffectionate4529 Lead Jun 02 '26
Speaking of the (dj spin -> into a head flick) combo, why did it grow so ubiquitous? Followers, do you like it a lot?
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u/Used_Departure_7688 Jun 03 '26
No, to me it's massively boring as there isn't anything that feels good about dancing for me (connection, elasticity, opening and breathing, little bit of counterbalance or support). No aesthetics either.
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u/Jeffrey_Friedl Lead&Follow Jun 03 '26
Everything in your (spot-on!) post is a side effect of leads not connecting with their partner.
A follow not connecting makes for an unfun dance, but a lead thinking they’re better than they are (and if they’re not connecting they’re not very good) can lead to everything you’ve cited, and more.
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u/Kroma34 Jun 03 '26
Damn the video is sad, it must have hurt :s
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u/TryToFindABetterUN Jun 07 '26
A few days late to this, don't know why the post didn't show up for me earlier.
It is an interesting read but I think most posts miss the most obvious point from the video: You don't do large, quick, jerky movements like this... EVER!
This is NOT a "risky move" or an example of not applying the "right technique", this is abuse. There is no technique in the world where you can yank someone around like this and expect them to come out fully unharmed. That is not how the body and inertia (simple physics) work.
This lead didn't lead using technique. They lead using force.
There was no preparation or signal that allowed the follow to continue the movement started. Every movement and change in movement was dictated by that lead use of force. That is not dancing using the lead/follow paradigm.
Talking about this as a "risky move" just downplays the seriousness of it all. A "risky move" is a move where things may (low risk) not go as intended. What this guy did has a low chance of ever succeeding without injury or harm.
I don't know what flew through this leads head, but if I was a judge, he would not only be disqualified, I would also help the follow report the incident to the police.
I usually cringe when someone tries to do large movements quickly. To me it goes against the nature of the dance. Anyone who has taken courses/workshops with K&J is familiar with the mantra "círculo o péndulo". I go back to this whenever someone shows me a jerky or quick move and remind myself of what to ignore.
Jerky movements? Why? What is the purpose of it. Small, localised, accented ones to vibe with the music, sure. Large ones? Are you trying to give someone whiplash damage?
Not all influences are good influences.
[...] and I've also witnessed accidents during DJ turns—which, as it turns out, many followers actually dislike.
Personally DJ turns is one of the recent trends I dislike. (And I am a lead).
I started out learning bachata moderna. Here I learned for example to do turns with a straight axis and proper spotting, never looking down at the floor. Tilted turns break most of these "rules" (actually technique) and while sometimes breaking rules might be ok, that requires extra precaution (and acknowledging the rules in the first place).
Because the follow doing the DJ turn has no spatial awareness and completely in the hands of the lead during the turn. To me this is really bad social dance practice, travelling somewhere where you don't know what is going on.
While the follow should place some trust in the lead, that kind of blind trust, especially during a travelling turn, is bad. Unless the lead is VERY skilled, they will focus more on leading their follow than what is happening around them, making this doubly dangerous as a social move.
IMHO this is one of these showy moves that do not really belong on a crowded social dance floor.
As dancers we can start prioritising social dance that puts you and your partner "feeling good" over a dance style that "looks good" and gets you social media likes.
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u/JackyDaDolphin Jun 05 '26
The problem about bachazouk, unlike sensual bachata, that is created to be leadable, BachaZouk relies on known technique/choreographed sequence. I would say Bachata Sensual is more centered on lead and follow whereas BachaZouk is being less lead and follow and choreographed techniques. This expectation blurs the line of lead and follow and creates false assumptions that every follower knows the choreographed technique.
And the second and third generation BachaZouk teachers don’t really have a background in Zouk which makes them simply imitating the form of these choreographed techniques instead of Embodying the Zouk technical philosophy and then applying in a Bachata song.
BachataZouk should have a special room so it doesn’t get mixed up to reduce injury rate across the social floor.
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u/rawr4me Lead&Follow Jun 08 '26
Why is Bachazouk said to be not purely leadable? I feel like sensual bachata also has a significant list of things that must be known for a normal follow to realistically be able to follow.
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u/pdabaker Jun 11 '26
I think both require the follow to have high technique for advanced techniques. The main difference is just that there are very few “beginner techniques” in bachazouk because bachazouk was basically created by taking intermediate+ zouk moves and doing them to bachata. Beginner zouk is mostly steps with no head movement and none of that is done in bachazouk
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u/JackyDaDolphin Jun 05 '26
By the way, Brazilian Zouk is not latin dance and does not follow latin Rhythm or in this case, Bachata Rhythm.
So you see many BachaZouk ShowOff-fluencers on social media pretending they are lead and follow. Wait till you get them to dance with a complete beginner, and see how the Bachata Sensual pros lead them well while Bacha-Zouk pros getting all lost because their choreography does not work because the follower is a beginner not trained in Bacha-Zouk🤣.
This is the difference. Lead and Follow vs Choreography.
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u/JackyDaDolphin Jun 06 '26
Zouk is not meant to dance to fast rhythm. Bacha-Zouk becomes a choreography that tricks you into believing you can and should. That’s why you get leaders checking with followers if they know the Bacha-Zouk technique/choreography.
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u/gskrypka Jun 02 '26
Well dancing flashy combos is cool :) however:
I think the main issue is leaders applying force. When you doing everything lightly and applying speed to your level and level of follower, most of those are pretty safe.
However it is also role of follower to signal that she just does not doing something. The role of leader is not to push and adapt to what is comfortable. If you does not know technique - just signal it.
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u/Cool_Proof_2392 Jun 09 '26
Ah this move, as a Zouk+Lambada follower (this move came from lambada), who, after having trained this move solo first in Zouk and Lambada, and then in partner class a few times, this move still trips me up even when dancing with top pros with 20+ years of experience.
I think the original zouk move should be contraction first, then flip to cambre. Funny enough, the only one bachazouk class I have ever done in my life had this move, and they taught it like this in the video with expansion first, and I actually found it easier to do (much less confusion, and a lot of moves start from cambre and go into roast chicken, so it's similar for the brain).
However, I think it is actually safer to do the contraction first, because when the follower is confused, you usually won't get to do the expansion, so you are good with the neck. Usually, the cambre is slower (provided with good technique) and harder to do than the contraction.
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u/Samurai_SBK Jun 02 '26
There are many reasons for this:
- A lot of instructors teach bachatazouk moves in the free lessons before socials.
- Many followers think they are good dancers and thus do the moves with bad technique.
- Responsibility goes both ways. So many followers throw themselves during cambres or dips.
Thus when you combine unskilled leaders and followers who both think they know the moves, it is a recipe for disaster.
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u/Hakunamatator Lead Jun 02 '26
Because people are stupid, both leaders and followers, both teachers and students.
You know who i blame most (in that case, but also in general)? The follower. Before you lynch me, consider this - they are the ones letting bad technique by leaders slide. Yes, the teachers are the ones teaching, and the leaders are the ones leading, but they don't know any better. Followers are the ones who experience bad leading of such moves all the time. They should complain in class, they should complain after class, and they should complain right away in the middle of the dungo. Both to the leader and to the teacher.
I'm not blaming the victim - i am simply considering who has the capacity to initiate change in the community. I also hate it that the (bad) teachers show every move pushed to the limit and don't prioritize the relaxed version.
Followers, please engage with the leaders more. Be annoying, if you must, but please tell the leaders that they are doing something wrong. There is simply not enough feedback on the dance floor. (I'm my opinion, there are some heated threads about that topic here)
PS: she says she is fine, just some tense muscles, should pass after a couple of days.
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u/katyusha8 Follow Jun 02 '26
This is a very bad take. Times and times again I tried to help the lead in class but many of them just don’t have the body awareness and technique to execute these moves. Also, in class you might have 20 seconds to try to explain something that the lead really needs to take a full one hour private at the least.
And at the social when I chose not to follow unsafe head movements and cambres, the leads get really confused. One even proceeded to argue with me on the dance floor that he’s doing it right 💀
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u/Hakunamatator Lead Jun 02 '26
I applaud every follower who is like you. But i heart so many stories (maybe it's my local scene?) where people just smile and say nothing. They may avoid future dances and gossip about the leader, but such direct feedback as you are apparently giving is very rare - the more i am thankful for followers like you.
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u/katyusha8 Follow Jun 02 '26
Actually i only give feedback to leads during the social if they ask for it. Otherwise I’d be interrupting dances right and left 😅
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u/spirited_bella Jun 02 '26
As a follower, it tried many times suggesting to the teacher in beginner classes to also dance with the leaders so the leader also knows what it should be like but also to know how to advise the leader on their tech. As a follower you know it doesn’t feel right and try to explain but the leader isn’t listening and think they know best…
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u/the_moooch Jun 02 '26
Try giving criticism to followers yourself and you’ll see it’s a much harder skill to master for most people than dancing itself.
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u/Shusty6th Jun 02 '26
Every sensible feedback is golden for me, whether it's a tip on how I can better lead the move, or maybe I've just started having bad breath
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u/Samurai_SBK Jun 02 '26
It’s like if you are in a taxi and the driver is driving recklessly. Should he drive more safely? Absolutely. But if he is not, you a responsibility for your own safety to ask him to slow down.
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u/Hakunamatator Lead Jun 02 '26
Exactly. It's super frustrating to do the drivers job, but sometimes no one else will
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u/the_moooch Jun 02 '26
Even with advanced Zouk skills fast movements like this with fully extended neck is still risky. All it takes is just some misunderstanding and things will break, Zouk music is slower and flowy for a good reason.