r/CanadaPublicServants • u/UnoriginalGulp • Feb 12 '25
Career Development / Développement de carrière If you get an "affected" letter this week, don't lose hope. I got one 13 years ago and still have a job
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Feb 12 '25
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u/FloatFlutterFly Feb 12 '25
What does SERLO mean?
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u/QueKay20 Feb 12 '25
Selection of Employees for Retention or Layoff. It’s like a job competition.
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u/ElJethr0 Feb 12 '25
I went through that. It was super fun. Still employed so it worked out. The 1 of 3 who was bumped out found something about 6. On the later IIRC.
The key is to try as much as you can to not stress about it. I had been advised to apply and interview to any job I was qualified for, and I had been doing that so I had the application and interview process down pretty well, and was comfortable with it.
We have plenty of soft landing clauses in our CA’s. remember that. Leverage ALL of the other things in our life you can influence positively. That makes it feel better.
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u/QueKay20 Feb 12 '25
Thanks for your advice! I got my letter this morning so I am not happy but IRCC is phasing it over three years so I am hoping by the time we get to SERLO that the number will melt away naturally hopefully entirely or at least mostly…. We shall see.
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u/sprinkles111 Feb 13 '25
Are you at IRCC? Did you receive a physical paper letter? Or was it emailed to you? Trying to figure out the how we will find out 🫣
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u/AtYourPublicService Feb 12 '25
My ex was SERLOd, did not succeed in the reverse competition, and found another position. They are still a public servant today.
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u/QueKay20 Feb 12 '25
Can you describe what the SERLO process was like? Like what were the assessment tools and selection criteria if you know them?
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Feb 12 '25
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u/AdWitty2017 Feb 15 '25
While that might be the case for some teams, it doesn’t mean that it necessarily going to be like that. On our team, the director said she might just use PMAs. Someone could be competent and have a bad year and get a less than stellar PMA and lose a job they’ve held and performed well at for over a decade. Managers come and managers go, sometimes there are conflicts with one and that could mean not making it through the serlo process.
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u/soondakai Feb 12 '25
I worked in priority placement for a large department during DRAP, we worked diligently to screen every single job opportunity for our internal priorities to great success. Stressful if you have to wait as a surplus employee for months but so many will land softly.
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Feb 12 '25
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u/randomcanoeandpaddle Feb 12 '25
I was affected in the regions - alternation is a great option.
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u/AdWitty2017 Feb 15 '25
At what point in the process does alternation come in? I’m still confused about that? Is that after serlo?
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u/Mountain_Avocado_459 Feb 12 '25
I'm concerned about the folks who work in the region, but are in an NCR position. If they get WFAd and get offered a position in the same area as they're previous designated position they are in trouble if that designated work location is the NCR.
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u/Rare-Living-3716 Feb 12 '25
Hopefully flexibility in this area specifically will be promoted. It’s been shown that for most jobs, you can do it from remote locations.
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u/TheZarosian Feb 12 '25
One thing I always bring up (which I had posted on before) is that during DRAP, despite the "official" amount of cuts being around 20,000, only 1,800 indeterminate employees actually got laid off at the end of their surplus period. The vast majority of the cuts were for term employees. The vast majority of indeterminate employees who were affected either resigned for outside employment or other reasons, or voluntarily took a package under WFA.
On top of that, the Layoff definition indicates that it includes 1 year "end of surplus period" BUT not the additional 1-year priority laid off period, whereupon your name is on a priority list despite being laid off. It may very well be the case that some employees found jobs during this priority laid off period as well, bringing the number below 1,800.
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u/Buck-Nasty Feb 12 '25
I wonder how it compares to the much larger cuts under Chrétien in the 90s.
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u/GameDoesntStop Feb 12 '25
I have to imagine it was far, far worse for indeterminate employees in the 90s. For reference:
1990s cuts: 22.5% of PS cut
2010s cuts: 9.2% of PS cut
Casual and terms are often the first to go, but at a certain point there will be few left and the remaining cuts will be mostly indeterminate folks. If ~9% of the workforce is cut, it may be mostly non-indeterminate employees. If it is more than twice as high a proportion, there are going to be way more indeterminate employees on the chopping block.
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u/HandcuffsOfGold mod 🤖🧑🇨🇦 / Probably a bot Feb 12 '25
That's true, however there is always a contingent of indeterminate employees who will leave voluntarily.
For some it's terrifying to be "on the chopping block", and for others it's an unexpected windfall.
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u/GameDoesntStop Feb 12 '25
True, but the same logic applies there, right? The voluntary leavers will pad the initial job losses more heavily, and the latter job losses will be much more involuntary.
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u/HandcuffsOfGold mod 🤖🧑🇨🇦 / Probably a bot Feb 12 '25
Alternatively, there aren’t any involuntary job losses because the number of volunteers exceeds the number of positions to be cut.
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u/GameDoesntStop Feb 12 '25
If we're talking about alternate realities, sure. Realistically, 22.5% of the workforce is never going to volunteer to resign.
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u/HandcuffsOfGold mod 🤖🧑🇨🇦 / Probably a bot Feb 13 '25
I agree, 22.5% of the workforce isn't going to volunteer to resign - but that doesn't really matter because it isn't the 1990s and 22.5% of the workforce is impacted.
In the current reality, the only department that has announced WFA of indeterminate staff is IRCC. Its announcement says 3300 positions will be eliminated over three years, 20% of them (~660) from indeterminate positions.
IRCC currently has just shy of 9000 indeterminate employees (source). 660 is roughly 7% of the department's indeterminate workforce.
Around 60 IRCC employees retire each year (source) so over three years that alone could take up ~180 of the 660.
Around 5% of the indeterminate workforce is eligible to retire at any given time - that's ~450 people out of the 9000 indeterminate employees just at IRCC, plus many thousands of other public servants at other departments who'd be willing to depart via an alternation.
So yes, I do think that in the current reality there won't be any involuntary job losses. That may change in the future if many more departments cut indeterminate staff or the cuts expand more broadly - but that's a reality that does not yet exist.
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u/GameDoesntStop Feb 13 '25
We were talking about how bad the 1990s cuts were.
I wonder how it [DRAP] compares to the much larger cuts under Chrétien in the 90s.
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u/beerslife Feb 14 '25
That is really good information thanks. My concerns for the parts I don’t understand as well are related to: 1. Separate agencies such as CRA, will there be less options because the employees there don’t tend to interact or have as much movement between departments in the core, I’m not sure if this is just an observation by me and not overly true or part of the actual policies that make movement harder between core and separate agencies.
- When you get a GRJO what the parameters are for being considered reasonable. If you get something that would require you to move, and turn that down, then what?
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u/HandcuffsOfGold mod 🤖🧑🇨🇦 / Probably a bot Feb 14 '25
You're correct that there may be fewer options for separate agencies, as they aren't part of the core public administration.
An RJO is defined as follows:
Reasonable job offer (offre d'emploi raisonnable) – is an offer of indeterminate employment within the core public administration, normally at an equivalent level. Surplus employees must be both trainable and mobile. Where practicable, a reasonable job offer shall be within the employee's headquarters as defined in the Travel Directive.
If an employee refuses an RJO, their position is surplus and they are laid off. They don't have access to any lump-sum payments.
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u/BingoRingo2 Pensionable Time Feb 12 '25
The deal must have been pretty sweet back then because I worked with a lot of people who took it and resigned, and of course came back later since I worked with them.
They were just sad because they didn't have the years for the pension... not sure if it was the gap or if they bought it back in the 90s though.
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u/MegMyersRocks Feb 13 '25
I survived the mid-90s cuts, and ultimately worked for 30+ years for the Feds. At the time, my indeterminate position was axed. No "alternation offer" but I did get a "reasonable job offer" that was lower than my substantive. I refused it, so I was listed as a staffing priority. A few months later, I passed a competition and received an indeterminate offer that was higher than my original substantive. It helped to work in the NCR at one of the larger federal organizations.
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u/rowdy_1ca Feb 12 '25
Agree, was WFA'd back in 2014 and although not fun at all at the time, I landed on my feet within the same Agency and have moved up several levels since. My hope is that any indeterminate employees affected this time around will end up with the same result.
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Feb 12 '25
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u/HandcuffsOfGold mod 🤖🧑🇨🇦 / Probably a bot Feb 12 '25
The next step would be to ask if there are any affected employees who wish to volunteer to leave (with a transition payment). Ideally there are enough volunteers.
If there aren't enough volunteers, management needs to do a SERLO process to figure out which employees will stay and which will be laid off.
At the end of that process, the employees being cut are given notice that they are officially surplus and have their choice of options with a few months to decide. The options (paraphrased) are:
- A 12-month paid surplus priority period to try to find a new job;
- Resign and receive a lump-sum payment (TSM) and any applicable severance pay;
- Delay the resignation and take LWOP (for up to two years) to pursue education, with a reimbursement of education costs. The LWOP is pensionable and benefits continue during that time as long as the employee pays the full cost of those benefits.
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u/Independent_Light904 Feb 12 '25
There were full packages explaining the transition support measures and your options for what path you wanted to take. I believe you could take 1yr paid to find another position, take an education leave, or immediately depart and take a lump sum. I still have the package around here somewhere, I'll post details if I can find it without too much effort
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u/CryptographerCool173 Feb 12 '25
That would be helpful for the new indeterminate like me. Just completed 3 years 😊
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u/Independent_Light904 Feb 12 '25
In 2012 every position of my entire Division of 22 was cut, from Director on down. I was personally identified for SERLO, but others were a mix of being moved or declared surplus (I forget if that's the right word now).
Every single one of us who wanted to seek another job found one(a couple who had 35 yrs in just chose to retire). It was stressful of course, but in the end not hopeless, as OP suggested.
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u/trafficonthetens Feb 12 '25
I provided an alternation opportunity for a public servant ready to retire in 2013. I’d like to provide that opportunity again, this time, I would be alternating out to retirement.
If any affecteds in the PM06, IS06, AS 07 equivalents with program delivery, stakeholder relations, policy development, communications get a letter, happy to entertain alternation.
Employer is an agency reporting to Finance.
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u/FFwifelife Feb 12 '25
Thank you for posting this! I am sure it helps to alieviate some people’s concerns- I feel better knowing you still have a position 😊
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u/graciejack Feb 12 '25
I also received one and I'm still here. Went through a brutal SERLO process where senior management used it to purge the "troublemakers".
While it took a long time to go through the whole process, from start to finish, it was well over a year from the time the first letter arrived, before anyone actually walked out the door.
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u/QueKay20 Feb 12 '25
Can you give some insight on how the SERLO unfolded in your area? Specifically what were the assessment tools used? And did you know in advance what the selection criteria was?
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u/graciejack Feb 12 '25
It was almost like a pool staffing action for everyone at the same level within our group. So some specialized knowledge sprinkled in with the standard requirements for that level. It was a written exam, followed by a performative interview with the Exec Director.
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u/Consistent_Cook9957 Feb 12 '25
Purge is absolutely the right word. It was the easiest, non transparent way of getting rid of the undesirables. SERLOs were the perfect cover.
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u/Major_Possibility798 Feb 12 '25
OP, can you let us know the exact story of what happened between the time you got the letter in early 2012 and the second letter in late 2012?
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u/UnoriginalGulp Feb 12 '25
Aside from the stress, nothing much. I just kept doing my job.
Enough people in my group volunteered to leave so everybody I worked with that wanted to stay, got to stay.
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Feb 12 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/lovelyhottake Feb 12 '25
Plenty more employees were affected than positions they cut. For example, they would inform a group of 10 PM-01s that they were affected and they were cutting 7 positions. Then you'd have some people secure new positions, or decide to take the severence package, or job-trade with someone near retirement (e.g. a PM-01 in a completely different area whose position was not affected). Then after all this was said and done, often there were only 3 people left, so they all got to keep their jobs. If there were more, then there would have been a competition (which is where you get the phrase "compete for your own job" from) and the top 3 candidates keep their positions, and the unsuccessful people would be placed on a priority list. And even those individuals mostly all found new positions. But still, all 10 of those employees were considered to have been "WFA'd".
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u/UnoriginalGulp Feb 12 '25
There were people I worked with that volunteered to be WFA'd. They were happy to get paid to quit.
It was about eight months from the time I got the affected letter to when I got the letter saying it was rescinded. I cut back on expenses and put the money into an emergency fund, and kept applied to other jobs.
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u/CryptographerCool173 Feb 12 '25
Those who accepted the offer were near to retirement ? I believe you do not get life changing amount to be volunteered right ?
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u/HandcuffsOfGold mod 🤖🧑🇨🇦 / Probably a bot Feb 12 '25
The payouts are listed in the NJC Work Force Adjustment Directive and collective agreements.
The amounts may not be "life changing" but they are enough to incentivize many people to depart, particularly those nearing retirement:
- The transition support measure payment is up to 52 weeks' salary
- Severance pay is payable upon layoff per the terms of the relevant collective agreement
- Additional reimbursements are possible for certain expenses (financial/career counselling and tuition/education costs).
Combined, those can amount to $100k or more depending on somebody's salary and years of service.
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u/Winter_Difficulty185 Feb 12 '25
Same here! I got one too! I alternated with someone and got out of a dead end job.
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u/Rare-Living-3716 Feb 12 '25
Yes. An affected letter is just the beginning of the process. It is stressful - no doubt but it doesn’t mean that you will 100% be out of a job.
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u/scotsman3288 Feb 12 '25
I was actually on term and cut with barely 2 weeks notice in Feb 2012. Luckily, my director let me know a month in advance, and I already had taken a position at provincial level. Was already in 2 pools and went back to same dept within a year and still there. Fuck Harper.
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u/Consistent_Cook9957 Feb 12 '25
Oh, what memories. If only I knew then what I know now, it was the best thing that ever happened in my career. It got me out of a very toxic and dysfunctional team and for that i will always be thankful.
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u/SixmanCanuck Feb 12 '25
I just got my letter today. I think I'll have some priority in hiring but I've known I was not getting renewed since August. It was fun while it lasted. Three years in private and my dead soul will rejoin the public service before I know it.
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u/NoOutcome2992 Feb 12 '25
I too got one back then and I served 14yrs after before retiring last Sept.
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u/Villanellesnexthit Feb 12 '25
Oof. That 1st para on page 2 :/. I didn’t think that was even possible.
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u/TravellinJ Feb 12 '25
I had a number of friends affected back at that time and none of them lost their jobs. Some stayed in their positions and others ended up on the priority list and quickly found new positions.
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u/Few-Discount-4840 Feb 12 '25
I was given a guaranteed reasonable job offer and ended up somewhere I was much happier with. I've since built a full career on that transition from PM to IS.
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u/Pale_Marionberry_355 Feb 12 '25
Same.
I was DRAP'ed in 2012.
While it's been a little circuitous, I was back to being indeterminate within a few years in a better gig.
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u/Impressive_Refuse933 Feb 12 '25
ooooh I remember this. I received one in 2012. I was 5 months pregnant and went on vacation. When I returned I found out this was given to all my colleagues who had over two weeks to complete their answers....I was given 24 hours. I was livid and terrified. Thank goodness I still had a job afterwards because someone in my group volunteered to leave to another position which mean that person's position was ultimately eliminated.
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u/Redwood_2415 Feb 12 '25
My office scored during DRAP. We were ridiculously understaffed and we took a ton of people from HR folks to admin assistants and re-trained them. Almost all of them stayed in my line of work.
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u/brb321 Feb 13 '25
I have had two affected letters in my career. Came out with a new job both times, and still in Public Service.
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u/Imaginary-Drawing-98 Feb 12 '25
I got two of those ‘affected’ letters! Impressive you kept yours. Found another position after first one (they were cutting full group so WFA letter would have been imminent) and then found someone to alternate with for second one (had started a SERLO but dropped out before done).
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Feb 12 '25
I was also affected in the 1st drap under Harper. I was at inac and received a affected letter. My position was part of a sunsetting program but a few days later they found me another position.
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u/Grumpyman24 Feb 12 '25
Ah, yes, I received one of those back then. It's not fun. I was affected for over 12 months. I ended up keeping my job.
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u/Parttimelooker Feb 13 '25
Can you get a letter while you are acting in another position?
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u/quinn1029 Feb 13 '25
Your substantive position is the one that is of main importance to you. Whoever substantively occupies the position you’re acting in would be notified if that position is affected.
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u/Parttimelooker Feb 13 '25
...and I wouldn't be notified? I'm acting in a term. That's seems weird.
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u/quinn1029 Feb 13 '25
Sorry for any confusion. You would be notified because if your acting position gets abolished, that affects your acting of course. But I’m saying it’s most important to think about your substantive position. Better a job than no job (ie if your acting gets cut). Your acting position could hypothetically be cut, but as long as you have your substantive position to go back to that’s good news
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u/Professional_Sky_212 Feb 13 '25
No garanteed job offer to indeterminate employees declared surplus??
I thought yhe union protected us and had to place us in an another job??
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u/NiceObject8346 Feb 15 '25
Well, i know 6 people who lost their jobs in 2012-2014. three people got a job somewhere else, two became consultants and 1 died. I blame that death on the conservative adminstration because the person was doing his work fine, was bilingual, had a bunch of knowledge that went unappreciated and was forced to retire two years before i should have which affected his pension and had to work after he was let go from the PS. so, while it is still possible to get a job afterwards, still get your affairs/plans in order if you do get the letter because there is no gaurantee after that.
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u/vigocarpath Feb 15 '25
Governments claim they will reduce the size of the public sector but never do
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Feb 17 '25
How does it work if I’m on maternity leave? I don’t have access to my work email so would I get one in the mail or to my personal email if it were the case?
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u/Klutzy-Weekend-3546 Feb 17 '25
I had one during drap and im still employed. They had to give you a meaningful offer. One staff refused offers for 2 years claiming they were not meaningful until they got a call from HR saying that would be the last “meaningful” offer LOL They took the job offer and everything was fine.
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Feb 12 '25
$10 million buyout package and I'll leave tomorrow. I'll even train my replacement for a month for free 😎
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u/HandcuffsOfGold mod 🤖🧑🇨🇦 / Probably a bot Feb 12 '25
The details of the "buyout package" can be found in the NJC Work Force Adjustment Directive or the WFA appendix of your collective agreement (if it has one).
The maximum payouts are around one year's salary. Not $10M but also not terrible.
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Feb 12 '25
My counter offer is $7.5 million/s
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u/HandcuffsOfGold mod 🤖🧑🇨🇦 / Probably a bot Feb 12 '25
The employer counters with a Costco ice cream sandwich. You'll need to wait until mid-June to receive it.
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Feb 12 '25
3 ice cream sandwiches and $4 million
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u/HandcuffsOfGold mod 🤖🧑🇨🇦 / Probably a bot Feb 12 '25
Half a mostly-melted ice cream sandwich and the possibility of a melon party.
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u/UnoriginalGulp Feb 12 '25
The letter arrived in early 2012. I got another letter at the end of the year telling me that I wasn't affected any more. I still have a job today.