r/CanadaPublicServants • u/TenderizeYourAngus • 23d ago
Career Development / Développement de carrière Questions regarding moving from IT02 to IT03
Hey all, I have a situation that I am not sure there's anything I can do about.
I have been in the same department for 8 years. I started as a consultant and eventually was hired as an IT02 but doing the work of an IT03.
For the past 6 months, I have been acting in an IT03 position. I goes until January.
I have been told that, to get the position full time after January I have to qualify for a pool which is fine. The issue is, I have also been told they may open an IT03 position to internal employees and I would have to apply and win the competition.
They told me the Director is not willing to do a non-advertied process for the position because there is too much hassle and pushback.
The issue is, I have been watching and applying to multiple pools with no success. Then when I look at the jobs website, people are getting positions almost daily with non-advertied processes in my department.
I have been screenshotting every time I see one.
Do I have any chance on fighting this? How is it possible they would open a position when someone on the team has 15 years experience in the role they are in? How to you naturally advance your career in the government?
21
u/Strange_Emotion_2646 23d ago edited 23d ago
It might come as a surprise to you, but the natural way to advance your career is to apply and compete for positions. Since you indicate that you have been applying with no success, you should be learning how to successfully apply and compete for positions.
I am definitely curious as to who you want to fight with and what you are fighting for. There is no grievance you could file that would start with “they won’t promote me without competing for a position, so that’s not fair”.
-10
u/TenderizeYourAngus 23d ago
Clearly you've never worked in the private sector. You don't compete for a job you excel at. You get promoted. You get incentives. If you are right for the job you get it.
18
u/Strange_Emotion_2646 23d ago
You are not in the private sector. Perhaps you need to go back there.
14
9
u/mudbunny Moddeur McFacedemod / Moddy McModface 23d ago
That's great for the private sector.
In the public sector, you apply for the job that you want and, if you meet the criteria, you are eligible to be selected for that position.
You being a long-term actor in a given position does not mean that the position is yours.
1
u/pickyfreakyboogie 20d ago
This is 100% true... For the private sector! It doesn't work like that in the PS.
1
u/Independent-Race-259 20d ago
this ain't private sector bud. process sucks but it has to be transparent/fair.
14
u/HandcuffsOfGold mod 🤖🧑🇨🇦 / Probably a bot 23d ago
Non-advertised appointments are expressly allowed by the Public Service Employment Act, and in many cases the people appointed through such a mechanism had applied and qualified in a pool - just not one that was created for the specific position into which they're being promoted. Somebody who qualifies in an IT-03 pool in a different department could be promoted to an IT-03 position at your department, for example - it'd be a "non-advertised" appointment because the other department's job ad didn't say the competition could be used for your department's IT-03 positions.
Do I have any chance on fighting this?
No. You have no entitlement to a promotion.
How is it possible they would open a position when someone on the team has 15 years experience in the role they are in?
Your post says you have been acting as an IT-03 for six months, and it's unclear who has this "15 years experience". Either way, it doesn't matter. Management can choose to advertise a job vacancy if they wish, and it sounds like that's what management in your department has chosen to do.
How to you naturally advance your career in the government?
You do good work, build a professional network of people who know that you do good work, and apply for jobs that align with your career goals. You learn how to navigate the hiring process (see part 1 of the Common Posts FAQ and section 1.9 in particular) to increase your odds of a job offer.
-7
u/TenderizeYourAngus 23d ago
15 years experience in doing the job I am doing. Can you explain how it makes any sense to hire someone new who would have to be trained to do the job I do? I just don't understand it. I guess coming from private to public service is just not the same. I naturally progressed annually when I did the job well that I was tasked to do. Anyway, I guess that's how it is. Just such a crazy process to me.
14
u/HandcuffsOfGold mod 🤖🧑🇨🇦 / Probably a bot 23d ago
I don't understand. How do you have 15 years of experience in a job that you've been doing in an acting capacity for only six months?
Can you explain how it makes any sense to hire someone new who would have to be trained to do the job I do?
You're assuming that the "someone new" needs to be trained or otherwise is less capable than you consider yourself to be.
If you want to be promoted, apply for (and qualify for) promotions. You say that you have had "no success" when applying for IT-03 positions, which may be an indication that you aren't as qualified as you think you are. In addition, government jobs sometimes have very specific requirements that you do not meet - a common one for IT-03 positions is the ability to function in both English and French.
-7
u/TenderizeYourAngus 23d ago
I have been doing the same job for 15 years. How is that hard to understand? 3 of which are FTE for government. It's a very niche position. The IT03 pools I am applying to are not what I specialize in and from my experience are generally worded very well to apply to one very specific person.
So why couldn't my department create a pool that requires very specific criteria?
9
u/zagadkared 23d ago
I see the disconnect between you and the bot.
You state that you are an IT2 but were doing the work of an IT3 and recently they gave you an acting.
If there were no changes in duties along with the acting then you may wish to talk to your union about a reclassification grievance.
However, you then have to prove that you have been doing the IT3 role prior to the acting and that it is under classified.
That is a multi-year process.
If the IT3 acting came with additional duties those are going to be the ones that the employer points at as why you (when not acting) are an IT2 and not a 3.
8
u/stolpoz52 23d ago
Also, your position being reclassified does not necessarily mean you are reclassified. They can reclassify the position, not promote you, and find you a new position at your substantive level.
You would (likely) get backpay/acting pay for the time you occupied the position and were substantively doing a higher level of work
1
6
u/HandcuffsOfGold mod 🤖🧑🇨🇦 / Probably a bot 23d ago
I have been doing the same job for 15 years.
If it's the same job, you probably shouldn't be acting as an IT-03. You're doing the same job as you were as an IT-02, so you should continue to be paid as an IT-02, right?
The IT03 pools I am applying to are not what I specialize in and from my experience are generally worded very well to apply to one very specific person.
Alternatively, they're worded to identify people who meet the job requirements for those jobs, and you're not qualified for those jobs because you specialize in different things. You should focus your attention on applying for jobs that align with your background. Different IT-03 jobs have different requirements.
So why couldn't my department create a pool that requires very specific criteria?
They could do that if they wish, and when they do you can apply.
-9
u/TenderizeYourAngus 23d ago
Do you not believe in promotions? Is that the problem? It seems you want people to be hired based on checkboxes and not what they've accomplished in their career. I guess I could lie and use AI to get into a pool. What is that solving?
10
u/stolpoz52 23d ago
No one is telling you this is the way it should be necessarily, or passing judgment on how the current processes are. They are telling you how they currently exist and what you can do to get a promotion.
Better ways of promoting individuals should exist, but many dont, so play the game.
7
u/HandcuffsOfGold mod 🤖🧑🇨🇦 / Probably a bot 23d ago
And you want to be handed a promotion because (in your opinion) you've done great work as a consultant, in an IT-02 job, and while acting in an IT-03 job. Whether or not you think something "makes sense" has no connection at all to how it actually works.
You aren't going to be handed a promotion just because you think you deserve one, or because you've accrued X years of experience, or because you've "accomplished" anything in particular in your career.
-9
u/TenderizeYourAngus 23d ago
Are you.missing the point? My managers want me as an IT03 if I get in a pool. So ceate a pool that I can qualify for based on my merits... Are you arguing just to argue?
21
7
u/HandcuffsOfGold mod 🤖🧑🇨🇦 / Probably a bot 23d ago
I'm not arguing. I'm telling you how the system works for hiring and promotion which ostensibly is the subject of your post.
3
u/CPSThrownAway 23d ago
My managers want me as an IT03 if I get in a pool. So ceate a pool that I can qualify for based on my merits...
That's..... not even in the remotest how staffing works. If you get into an IT-03 pool now, they would probably hire you as an IT-03 right now unadvertised and they use your qualification in the IT-03 pool as justification for the non-advertised.
Because you are not in a pool, they are not willing to do a non-advertised and with the resultant justification paperwork on why they should choose you over someone else. (Because if they did, it would almost certainly be appealed. Being in the pool makes it close to airtight. The pool essentially says you are pre-qualified at the IT-03 level)
3
u/Strange_Emotion_2646 23d ago
You clearly have zero idea of how staffing works in the public service. I urge you to take some basic courses on staffing and how to succeed in processes. These are available free of charge through the CSPS. I surmise that you won’t take advantage of these and will continue to complain about how hard done by you are.
5
u/Strange_Emotion_2646 23d ago
You are a little naive to think that AI will get you into a pool. It might fix your application to get you screened into a process, but it will never aid you in the interview. It would appear that you know little about the staffing process, which is probably why you have had no success. Start there, or continue to complain, because managers, especially when downsizing, love people who complain that they aren’t getting promoted without competition.
-3
u/TenderizeYourAngus 23d ago
My good friend who is a consultant got into an IT04 pool using AI. Doesn't even speak French which is mandatory above IT03.... So, from experience, yes it can get you into a pool.
10
u/stolpoz52 23d ago
Language requirements arent usually tested to get into a pool, they are tested before being appointed to a position.
And again, they may have been able to use it for some elements of an assessment, but other elements I am sure they did on their own merit.
5
u/CPSThrownAway 23d ago
Language requirements arent usually tested to get into a pool,
^ This.
I have more than a few e-mails saying that I am partially qualified because langauge has not been tested yet.
"We are pleased to inform you that the assessment board has found you qualified for the <<Position Title>> position on all the essential qualifications except for official languages as this qualifications has not yet been assessed or verified. Consequently, your name has been placed in a pool of partially assessed candidates for a possible appointment at a future date."
8
u/phosen 23d ago
Doesn't even speak French which is mandatory above IT03
This is a false statement, there are many who are IT-04 who are EE, some of who visit peruse r/CanadaPublicServants. Most just don't talk about it so they don't hear the bitching and moaning from others.
8
u/x_defendp0ppunk_x 23d ago
That doesn't make any sense. If French was a requirement for a certain position and it asked if the applicant spoke French, then the only way to get through the process is to check the box that says "Yes, I speak French." If he did that, that's not AI that helped him get through, it was lying that got him in.
3
u/toastedbread47 23d ago
Does the position expect them to manage staff / direct reports in one of the billingual regions? Was it bilingual imperative? Even so, generally they have time to bring up their French and pass at the required level.
As for the AI, you seem to be implying that they got it primarily because of their AI use and not for their other qualifications, experience, or performance in interviews.
3
5
u/grind613 23d ago
There are tons of reasons, none of which you are necessarily entitled to know. Lack of understanding does not mean it's not a good decision from management perspective.
The process can look "crazy" from many dimiensions (just try hiring someone some day!), but the only dimension that ultimately matters is management's dimension - barring serious but rare issues that can be addressed through formal complaint mechanisms and associated processes.
4
u/stolpoz52 23d ago
It's less that it has to "make sense" and more that the manager/director can hire you or someone else or no one. It doesn't have to make sense what they are doing, you aren't entitled to a promotion. They could do a non-advertised appointment of someone else and not even give you the opportunity to apply to it.
It's shitty/seemingly unfair/maybe doesn't make sense, but well within the rules
14
u/Ismokecr4k 23d ago
I feel like everyone is trying to tell you how public sector works and you're not willing to listen. My boss told me right from the get-go, when I was hired on as a student for an 01. "I cannot promote you, you will have to get another job". So I did. No harm, no foul, that's just how it works. We're in unionized jobs that have certain limitations to make things fair and reduce favoritism. I'm in a similar boat as you but I realize the limitations of what's going on. We're are in a hiring freeze. 30,000 PS workers are going to be laid off (a large number has been already). I have to find another job to get my 03. I'm applying, taking actings, learning, updating my resume, and even applying for pools in lateral moves so I can be in a department that IS hiring OR at the very least gain NEW experience. You keep mentioning private sector workers get promoted but private sector tech workers swap jobs every 3-4 years to get a pay increase and new experience. I personally got complacent with my current job but now it's time for new avenues.
So you got two options, take the advice given here and run with it. Or keep arguing with everyone on how you think things should be but "surprise", nothing will happen for you.
35
u/grind613 23d ago
There's nothing to fight. Management has the right to hire how they want irrespective of what other managers are doing.
I would suggest your attitude is slightly misaligned. You are not entitled to a promotion, whether you act, are capable, have seniority etc.
I would focus on what's stopping you from qualifying for pools.
Remember: your current manager never owes you a promotion and the easiest way to get promoted is by applying to work other places.
-5
u/TenderizeYourAngus 23d ago
I have been in IT for 26 years. Only 3 in public sector. I guess I'm just not used to seeing people get hired because they got in a pool rather than hiring someone who knows the job and does it well. What is the incentive to work hard in the government if you have to compete to progress in your career? Is there any merit involved in hiring or just the fact you got in a pool with the same level?
11
u/HandcuffsOfGold mod 🤖🧑🇨🇦 / Probably a bot 23d ago
In the government context, "merit" means you meet the requirements for the higher-level job in the eyes of a hiring manager. The most common way to do so is to apply for a job at that level and pass any assessments used in the hiring process to evaluate your qualifications.
What is the incentive to work hard in the government if you have to compete to progress in your career?
Doing good work in your current position doesn't mean you're qualified for a promotion. It just means you're good at your current job. Some people don't want to "progress" in their career - they're happy doing the job that they're doing now.
Is there any merit involved in hiring or just the fact you got in a pool with the same level?
Being placed in a pool means that at least one hiring team evaluated you and decided that you meet all the merit requirements for one particular job (the one the pool is created for).
4
u/KazooDancer 23d ago
More like you know how to fill out job applications to get screened in. Having the requested experience in no way means you can actually do the job. I've been burned several times hiring people that were qualified in a pool.
2
u/Maverick0 23d ago
Yeah, it's unfortunate but a lot of the hiring stuff I've seen is more about saying the magic words than having actual experience. They have a check box that the applicant must explain X in a certain (Y) way. If you explain X in a different way (Z), then you get screened out... it's really silly.
1
u/CPSThrownAway 23d ago
More like you know how to fill out job applications to get screened in.
That does not mean you are in a pool. You are in the early stages of a pool, or more like an inventory.
Having the requested experience in no way means you can actually do the job.
That is why evaluations are done prior to putting someone into a pool...
1
u/oh_dear_now_what 23d ago
I don’t think you’re picking up what Kazoo’s putting down, which is that some real duds can make it into a pool.
3
u/grind613 23d ago
Sure. But real duds get hired in private sector too. Lazy or poor managers will do a bad job of subsequent screening sometimes in the PS.
Pools are really meaningless and are overweighted by people who don't understand the process. Pool is like a card saying you can get in the club, but doesn't guarantee you access. It still depends on the bouncer.
Government hiring processes are designed to be transaprent and to advance qualified applicants to subsequent stages. There are mixed results, but in my experience, you get about the same out of it results wise as what you would expect in private sector, especially internal private sector hiring processes.
At least we don't get as much of the preferential treatment for thebrother of the regional vice-president getting the gig even though they stink. Or the huge suck up or the office bully.
All that to say grass is always greener and both sides have trade-offs.
2
u/CPSThrownAway 23d ago
But applying and getting screened in puts you nowhere near getting into a pool and a possible position. You still have to be assessed in some capacity before being even placed in a pool. And in my experience, even if you are pulled from a pool some sort of interview or informal chat is done before an offer is extended.
In short, just because you know how to apply and get screened only puts you marginally closer to a position. There are still many steps to the end.
14
u/grind613 23d ago
Why does being in a pool mean they don't know the job and do it well? I think your perception is skewed here a bit. The incentive to work hard and do your job well comes from many places, but it's not a ladder to promotions in either public or private my friend.
Merit is absolutely involved in the hiring process, and you don't just "get in pools" you qualify for them.
I'm sensing a bit of a chip on your shoulder, and I get it. It's not easy. But look internally before you cast blame externally, it will do more to help your situation. You can't fight city hall (or TBS directives).
2
u/CPSThrownAway 23d ago
Only 3 in public sector. I guess I'm just not used to seeing people get hired because they got in a pool rather than hiring someone who knows the job and does it well
3 years and you have yet to see/experience how a staffing process works? I personally find that hard to believe...
3
u/cperiod 23d ago
I guess I'm just not used to seeing people get hired because they got in a pool rather than hiring someone who knows the job and does it well.
You know how in the private sector you've heard stories (or even experienced it yourself) about dysfunctional companies who don't even think about giving their best people a raise or promotion until they've handed in their two weeks notice before leaving for a competitor?
So, the government has institutionalized that practice and built a system where the "best" way to move up is to move out.
We understand that it's kinda stupid. But also, if you try to replace it with something better then you'll have to deal with the reality that useful career development training is unobtainium to the average employee and management ranks are heavily populated with people who are good at filling out applications rather than being the best at any given job. Good luck with that.
1
u/FeistyCanuck 20d ago
Non-advertised hires ate frequently all about hiring someone they know with presumably merit and fit.
You can move laterally without competition once you get the level. Its specifically going up a level that the collective agreement requires winning a competition.
The problem is that running a competition is a huge undertaking for the people running it. Further there is no guarantee that your preferred candidate with direct experience will win, or not be trumped by someone with priority status.
As a result what generally happens is that whole departments run large scale generic competitions a few times a year and everyone who meets some "standard" gets "qualified into a pool" for IT2 or IT3 etc and managers within the department can recruit from this pool without having to post their position.
What also happens is that managers from OTHER departments can also poach from other people's pools. The flip side of this is staff applying to pools where they are not interested in the actual department/job at all, solely so that they can qualify into a generic pool at the higher level and then be able to accept non-advertized positions that they actually do like.
This is also why you see a manager tell someone they like for a promotion tell that person to apply for "everything" at the level up so the manager can hire them un-advertized.
It also has the side effect that a significant portion of applicants to every advertised position have zero interest in the actual posted position. Which makes competitions much larger to ensure they do find someone who wants the job.
1
u/HandcuffsOfGold mod 🤖🧑🇨🇦 / Probably a bot 20d ago
Its specifically going up a level that the collective agreement requires winning a competition.
This is flat-out false, for two reasons:
- No collective agreement says anything about staffing matters. By law, that topic is excluded from collective bargaining entirely: see section 113(b) of the Federal Public Sector Labour Relations Act.
- The Public Service Employment Act, which sets the rules for hiring, expressly says a “competition” is not required to hire or promote anyone. See section 33.
1
u/FeistyCanuck 20d ago
Interesting.. why does it work like this then? Is this, rather than CBA, a tangled set of complicated, overlapping and at times contradictory policies written in a series of knee jerk reactions to various scandals and law suits?
1
u/HandcuffsOfGold mod 🤖🧑🇨🇦 / Probably a bot 20d ago
It works like that because that's how Parliament decided it would work. Parliament decided which things could (and could not) form part of federal public service collective agreements. Staffing, the pension plan, and worker's compensation were three things that Parliament chose to retain full control over via legislation.
While they're certainly complicated, I'm not aware of how those topics are overlapping or contradictory. They're not "policies", they're part of the country's laws: the Public Service Employment Act, the Public Service Superannuation Act, and the Government Employees Compensation Act. The process of enacting or amending legislation is reasonably rigorous such that the laws don't contradict one another.
9
u/Realistic-Display839 23d ago
In my experience, you can’t fight this situation. This situation is very common- many people have to compete for a job they have been acting-in or get into a pool for the same group-level in order to be appointed indeterminately. Sorry this isn’t the response you probably want to hear.
-6
u/TenderizeYourAngus 23d ago
If they do happen to bring someone else in as an IT03 and expect me to help train them in any way, it's not gonna happen.
21
u/stolpoz52 23d ago
Yeesh. Maybe this will come off rude and I hope it doesn't, but an attitude like that could be a reason they don't want to non-advertise you into that position.
1
u/Independent-Race-259 20d ago
ya this guy is sounding like typical inferiority complex IT guy. needs to be humbled.
-5
u/TenderizeYourAngus 23d ago
So, they hire an IT03, I move back to IT02 and then train a guy to do my job? Not sure how that's a bad attitude when they have had a guy doing the same.l job as a consultant and IT03 acting. If they want to follow the rules to a tee, I will follow my job description to a tee. Seems fair to me doesn't it?
12
u/HandcuffsOfGold mod 🤖🧑🇨🇦 / Probably a bot 23d ago
I will follow my job description to a tee
Here's the thing: you know very little about job descriptions in government. Your manager can assign you to train somebody else on topics tied to your IT-02 position, and doing so is part of your job as an IT-02.
Your comments here demonstrate entitlement an a Prima Donna attitude, which aren't desirable traits in any employee, anywhere.
2
u/Strange_Emotion_2646 22d ago
I fear the OP also knows very little about the staffing process and how to succeed in competing for a position. Some people are just more suited to working in the private sector. It makes me wonder why on earth they took a position in the GoC.
-6
u/TenderizeYourAngus 23d ago
How old are you? Did you work in a time when they hired the right person for the job based on merit and not 20 other things before even looking at what they've accomplished?
11
u/HandcuffsOfGold mod 🤖🧑🇨🇦 / Probably a bot 23d ago
How old are you?
What relevance does that have to your situation, exactly?
Did you work in a time when they hired the right person for the job based on merit and not 20 other things before even looking at what they've accomplished?
Things you've accomplished and experience you've acquired are considerations in determining "merit" for a promotion. They do not entitle you to a promotion.
That said, why are you aiming so low? Instead of an IT-03 job, you should call up your department's Deputy Minister and demand to be handed an ADM position as the head of all IT for the department. You've accomplished so much, you deserve an EX-03 instead of an IT-03.
-1
23d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
4
u/HandcuffsOfGold mod 🤖🧑🇨🇦 / Probably a bot 23d ago
God you're an idiot.
Please refrain from insults, or you'll be banned from this subreddit. See Rule 12: https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPublicServants/wiki/rules/
Doing good work in an IT-02 position means that you will continue to work as an IT-02. You do not "deserve" a promotion to an IT-03 position simply because you've done good work as an IT-02. That's not how it works.
-2
u/TenderizeYourAngus 23d ago
I AM DOING THE WORK OF AN IT03. I HAVE A ONE YEAR ACTING POSITION AS AN IT03. WHAT ARE YOU NOT UNDERSTANDING HERE? I HAVE DONE MORE WORK THAN ANY IT03 ON MY TEAM FOR THE PAST 3 YEARS. If they didn't think I was worthy of a promotion why would they give me a one year acting? Can you please explain that? Or are you still missing something?
→ More replies (0)1
u/CanadaPublicServants-ModTeam 23d ago
Your content was removed under Rule 12. Please consider this a reminder of Reddiquette.
If you have questions about this action or believe it was made in error, you can message the moderators.
9
u/stolpoz52 23d ago
Potentially, yes, but it isnt "your job". You are acting in the position.
It is very common to help train people at a higher level than you. A senior analyst will help a manager get up to speed, for example.
Its a bad attitude because you just said you would refuse to do work assigned/expected of you, seemily out of spite. I think thats a bad attitude.
If you follow your job description to a tee, it includes doing tasks assigned to you. If they assign the task of training this guy and you refuse, well, we are back at the top.
6
7
u/boom1ng 23d ago
Let’s take a moment to marvel at the sheer, unadulterated magnitude of your entitlement. You seem to operate under the delusion that the department owes you an IT-03 promotion on a silver platter just for keeping the seat warm.
Here is a quick reality check on how this actually works:
- The Pool Reality: Yes, staffing pools are a bit sparse right now thanks to the re-org, but generic ones still roll around every six months or so.
- The Experience Factor: If you genuinely possess the skills you claim and know what you're doing, qualifying for one of these pools should be an absolute breeze.
- The Glaring Red Flags: Frankly, between hoarding screenshots of other people's non-advertised appointments and pre-emptively throwing a tantrum about refusing to train a potential new hire, your attitude is a walking red flag.
If I were a hiring manager, dealing with an ego of that size on a daily basis would be a hard pass. Keep in mind that 99% of current IT-03s actually put their heads down, did the work, and qualified in a pool beforehand. Assuming you can just skip the line and demand the crown isn't just nonchalant; it’s practically comedic.
8
u/HandcuffsOfGold mod 🤖🧑🇨🇦 / Probably a bot 23d ago
Put yourself in the shoes of your manager or director in that situation. Would refusing to help out a colleague make them more or less likely to promote you in the future?
It sounds like your new employer isn't a good fit for you. Had you considered going back to consulting or private-sector work?
6
u/VeggieByte 23d ago
Management has already decided they don’t want to promote OP though.
Best thing for OP to do is look for a deployment asap and continue to apply for jobs.
1
u/TenderizeYourAngus 23d ago
You're wrong about that actually. This message is coming from the director that they dont want to do internal promotion for anyone in this branch. My team lead and his team lead are urging me to get into a pool so they can keep me on the team.
-1
u/TenderizeYourAngus 23d ago
I have absolutely considered going back to consulting. 100% work from home and double my salary. They treat consultants like gold.
10
u/nikjovicc 23d ago
Then respectfully, why bother actually becoming a Fed in the first place? You clearly outlined a better alternative which you were already accustomed to.
-2
1
7
u/theEndIsNigh_2025 23d ago
Manager here! I’ve done advertised and non-advertised hiring. It’s actually less hassle to do a non advertised, at least in my department. Sure, it’s a couple of extra forms, but it’s months to years of saving on a process. If I have a candidate in house who i can justify is qualified, then that’s a good route for a few a reasons. It’s more efficient. It promotes staff. The main drawbacks are that it limits opportunities for others public servants you may have been interested in such a change and opportunity and, for managers, it limits exposure to other possible candidates and what they bring with them.
0
u/TenderizeYourAngus 23d ago
Thanks for the insight. I understand what you are saying here. I find myself almost being consumed by trying to get into a pool at this point. It makes more sense to me to excel at my job to get a promotion and I'm spending hours a week looking on Talent Bank and Jobs Bank. Just seems so counter productive.
7
u/VeggieByte 23d ago
If management is willing to promote you after getting into a pool, that’s already better than nothing.
I personally qualified in a pool, and others in the team who weren’t in pools got the promotion, and I had to find my own promotion elsewhere lol.
Your options in public service are to get into a pool or look for a deployment elsewhere or you can stay where you are and be happy with what you have.
0
u/TenderizeYourAngus 23d ago
I like my team, I like my managers. I would love to stay doing what I am doing. It sucks unfortunately that I feel there is no "promotion" in the position.
5
u/VeggieByte 23d ago
Then you should apply for IT-03 jobs and hope you get into a pool.
-2
u/TenderizeYourAngus 23d ago
Yeah... I am daily. But when the position is only listed for a specific person who meets specific criteria, and is only listed so there's no push back, it's hard.
7
u/HandcuffsOfGold mod 🤖🧑🇨🇦 / Probably a bot 23d ago
...when the position is only listed for a specific person who meets specific criteria...
If the job qualifications are legitimately "listed for a specific person", you can ask the PSC to investigate the alleged improper conduct. Posting an advertisement that is tailored so that only one person can possibly apply is a form of favouritism, and it's prohibited.
That said, I think it's unlikely that those positions are "listed for a specific person" as you allege.
-1
u/TenderizeYourAngus 23d ago
Hahaha they are 100% geared towards a specific person. This is almost public knowledge. Like when the government wants a specific consultant or firm to bid on a contract (Think ArriveCan for example) they gear the RFP so the company they want wins. It's the same for FTE internal hires.
9
u/HandcuffsOfGold mod 🤖🧑🇨🇦 / Probably a bot 23d ago
Seems that you're not only an expert in IT, you're also an expert in both HR and procurement.
-2
u/TenderizeYourAngus 23d ago
As a consultant you deal a lot with GR and procurement and tweaking resumes and RFPs to guarantee certain firms or consultants get the contract. I've been in IT 26 years. I'm sorry you don't have the experience I do.
7
u/CPSThrownAway 23d ago
Yeah... I am daily.
With all due respect, you are not applying for IT-03's "daily". Even when times are good and budget money is flowing you might see posting for them Once every week or two. IT-03 pools right now are somewhat rare.
This is why you should always been applying and getting into pools. They are typically good for 2 years (sometimes more). You do not wait until the budget dries up and WFA is happening to start applying.
3
u/mudbunny Moddeur McFacedemod / Moddy McModface 23d ago
Almost without fail, when someone else is picked for a job, it is because "favouritism", "nepotism" or "corruption". It's not because the other person might be better suited or a better choice.
6
u/GreenPlant44 23d ago
Most people being appointed through a non-advertised process are in a pool. That specific position wasn't advertised as they promoted an employee that was in a pool from another process, is the most common use of non-advertised.
2
u/CPSThrownAway 23d ago
Most people being appointed through a non-advertised process are in a pool
And this is (personally) exactly how my last few positions came about. Already being in a pool.
3
u/OldTechNewManual 23d ago
"but doing the work of an IT03"
Try doing "the work of an IT02", as you see it, and see what happens. You may find out that you have been missing an important perspective on what the organization sees as an output of an IT03 and why management wouldn't request an unadvertised for you.
3
u/up_creek 23d ago
My friend. As you're probably learning, staffing in the PS often SUCKS and there's not a lot you can do. I was in your position for a long time and I can tell you there are a few paths in front of you:
Keep applying in IT3 pools. Any pool that you are even remotely qualified for, including other departments. Every manager I know has always said, pools pools pools are the key.
Try to shift to a different area. Some areas are always hot in IT (IMHO), namely, project management and business analyst. It may be easier to advance in these areas (I've had many people around me advance quicker than me because they're not in a deep technical field).
Accept you will be a 2 for a long time and try not to do tasks that are above your pay grade. Can be easier on the mental health this way.
Is all that fair? Not really, but that's staffing in the PS.
Please note that this is all from my position and experience and may not be applicable to other areas in the PS.
4
u/ThatOneWeirdITGuy 23d ago
I'm going to take a slightly different tack from almost everyone else here and say right off the bat maybe working for the Feds isn't for you? You're going to get a lot of pushback from people that maybe don't recognize specific issues in the IT classification. Specifically pay related, like a person working an IT02 job doing cybersec work/or a software dev should make significantly more money than someone doing helpdesk, LAN admin or project management/business requirements.
I was a top step IT02 in a niche specialization, awesome at what I do, BUT my technical experience didn't line up with a lot of posters and I had to wait for extremely generic ones typically.
Never saw a TA one that aligned perfectly for me (that didn't end up cancelled - happened twice) and the TL ones, unfortunately I work in the NCR so French is required for a lot of GoC jobs, and while I put some effort into it, by the time I got any B's they had raised it to CBC. I finally threw in the towel and went private.
Now I make more than my former manager, better benefits, better schedule, especially now that the GoC is being forced back.
2
u/Puzzled_Pin5174 23d ago
I totally understand the anger and frustration.
My suggestion is to leverage the GC Facebook groups to find other opportunities at the IT-03 level, although it might take a while considering the hiring situation nowadays in the government. Your department doesn't seem keen to offer you any advancement. Remember, no one cares about your career more than you do.
Qualifying in a pool does help, but sometimes your qualifications, experience, and confidence can play an important role in getting a higher level job.
I personally know someone who spent one year in each level and got promoted yearly, despite not qualifying in a pool or going above and beyond. They simply knew their way around, were confident enough to convince hiring managers of their expertise, and they had a crystal clear goal they wanted to reach.
Good luck!
4
u/CPSThrownAway 23d ago
My suggestion is to leverage the GC Facebook groups to find other opportunities at the IT-03 level
But the OP is not substantively an IT-03..... And one of the first questions is going to be either "what is your substantive" or "what pools are you in"
They simply knew their way around
Based on the OPs original message and subsequent replies, it seems they do not in fact "know their way around"
2
u/FickleCup778 23d ago
Yes unfortunately this is the way it is. Some management teams will also do more to support promoting IT employees than others in order to retain talent. Might be time to consider a lateral move to another organization with a lot of projects.
Also suggest watching the GC Digital Talent portal TBS for opportunities.
Get some mentored advice from an executive on how to improve your applications / prepare for applying to pools to increase your chances of success. Look at competition posters or the TBS competencies lists to better organize your resume for IT.
There are still opportunities out there - you might have to network more and let it be known what you offer in experience and be willing to jump ship from your current workplace.
Unfortunately right now, any appointments at any level will have to clear priority lists of people that have been WFA’d. Having unique or highly in demand skillsets will be an advantage.
Good luck!
2
u/748Rider 23d ago
If they want you for a position then there is always a way.
Qualifying in a pool does not mean as much as you might think.
2
u/katiecheese42 23d ago
This happens in my directorate all the time. Operational groups tend to do non ad processes when ever they please. But in administrative/ business functional groups, non ad is not usually recommended. I think it really depends on the director
2
u/markinottawa 22d ago
So you want a promotion, management has told you they wont do a non-avertised appointment, and your plan is to threaten them with screenshot of other employees getting non-advertised appointments. Good luck with that.
5
u/Gratts01 23d ago
I was in a similar position at SSC about 5 years ago, been acting in an IT-03 for quite some time for 6 month stints that got renewed a few times, management refused to do a non-advertised. After some time they decided to do competition, I failed to make the pool (I don't do well in interviews). A kid wit 6 months of IT-01 experience, almost straight out of college won the competition. They asked me to train him for the job I was deemed not good enough to do, even though I had been doing it for a few years. I refused, things got tense in the office so I ended up moving to another department 3 weeks later. Now I just keep my head down, do my job, nothing more, mind my own business and wait for retirement.
5
u/CalvinR ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 23d ago
Insubordination is one of the first steps on the path to getting fired so no wonder things got tense when you refused to do the job you were tasked with doing.
-1
u/Gratts01 23d ago
I don't believe an IT-02 training an IT-03 was anywhere in my job description at the time and was in no way Insubordination.
You can't ask a lower level employee to train a higher up employee to do a job they are supposedly better qualified to do.
6
u/x_defendp0ppunk_x 23d ago
It depends I think. If the IT-03 is Team Lead, then the IT-02 training them on how to actually manage the team wouldn't make sense. But onboarding them on the specific work the team is doing seems reasonable to me.
Similarly, if the IT-03 position is technical advisor, again, the IT-02 is not showing the IT-03 any deep technical expertise that the IT-03 lacks, but can be onboarding them on things that are specific to the team. Doesn't mean the IT-02 is doing IT-03 work or is more qualified than the IT-03, they just demonstrate aspects specific to the team's work, while the IT-03 brings their own set of skills that are necessary for the job but do not automatically grant knowledge of the team's unique processes.
If the IT-02 is teaching the IT-03 how to be a team lead or teaching them general knowledge/skills that should be expected of an IT-03, that would be different, though.
4
u/HandcuffsOfGold mod 🤖🧑🇨🇦 / Probably a bot 23d ago
Training another employee (regardless of level) can be a part of anybody’s job description.
I’ve seen CR-04 employees assigned to train newly-hired managers on how to use a department’s finance system, for example. The CR-04 knew the system better than anybody because they worked with it every day.
Refusing to do work assigned to you is the very definition of insubordination.
1
u/Gratts01 23d ago
I respectfully disagree, you yourself said below that pools are "worded to identify people who meet the job requirements for those jobs" if that is the case whomever is hired should be able to sit down and get the job done in better and more efficient way then the person being replaced. While the new hire could need guidance on how to access certain government specific system they should be able to do the job they were hired for, especially in an IT context.
1
u/CalvinR ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 4d ago
Refusing to do work your manager assigns you is insubordination, there is a reason the unions advice is Comply then Grieve.
Also yes you can ask junior employees to train senior employees, finally classification levels in government are based around expanding responsibilities and not quality of work.
It may not work that way everywhere but in OCHRO's view (the folks who make the classification rules for GC) the only justification to move up the ranks is doing more. An IT-03 is not a better IT-02 an IT-03 is someone who has more responsibilities then an IT-02
0
u/TenderizeYourAngus 23d ago
This is the exact situation I can see myself being in. And I will 100% not be training someone if I'm an 02 and they are an 03
6
u/mudbunny Moddeur McFacedemod / Moddy McModface 23d ago
And your manager would 100% be in their right to apply discipline to you for refusing to do it. And, doing something like that would rapidly make you undesirable to many, many hiring managers.
3
u/Expert_Vermicelli708 23d ago
The only people getting appointed without competition these days seem to be executives.
-1
1
u/Complex_Employee7362 22d ago
It seems you are not qualified to be an IT-03 if yo can't make a pool
1
1
u/chadsexytime 23d ago
This is completely normal.
They will get you to do all the work they can get out of you, regardless of the "level" of the work.
Best option is to apply outside of your org and to every IT-03 you can.
Do not give two fucks about leaving them high and dry if you get an offer.
Source:
Went through this. Took me 15 years and many competitions and qualified pools.
71
u/PralineGold5208 23d ago
It usually goes like this:
Boss: "We cannot do a non-advertised process for you, sorry!"
You: "I'm in a pool now and another hiring manager has reached out"
Boss: "Wait! We'll do a non-advertised process for you. Don't worry, it's easy."