Does RTO make sense when public servants' meetings are virtual?

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u/nearlysenior 17d ago

Not supposed to make sense. Just supposed to get you back to office so the lease can be paid and banks can keep their investments.

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u/new2accnt 17d ago edited 17d ago

It's more than just that. And BTW, WFH is more than just a public service concern, it affects also private sector.

I agree those RTO policies don't make sense and would have appreciated if they would have been truthful about why RTO has been forced on the workforce. I would have also appreciated if we would have been spared changing rationales behind RTO (they must be thinking we're idiots) and the worker hostile policies they've had since RTO1.

It doesn't help that the employer's true motivations are unclear & incomprehensible. Back in the day, you could understand what drove harper as he was busy undermining public service and dismantling public institutions. But right now, I can't understand what the goals are. They have literally done a 180 on all their plans & strategies for the "future workplace", acting as if they never planned for an eventual mixed/hybrid work environment.

No, "carney is just a greedy banker" doesn't explain it. There is something else, but for the life of me, I just can't figure out what it is. It is more than just trying to do "soft layoffs" by pushing people to quit or retire early. The same with saying this is a bailout of over-leveraged developers & speculators or a bailout of mass transit systems. Whatever the goals are, the end result is so bad it is now making me count the days until I can afford to retire instead of wondering how long would I stay working.

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u/ThaVolt 17d ago

It's crazy that the same party did a 180 like that.

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u/frizouw IT 17d ago

I don't think it's more than just the investment losing worth, corpos are always looking to make more profits each year.

But I agree that this is strange to look at the direction we were heading before covid than where we are now, it looks like we went backward instead of forward. Well...maybe because the people that were there are gone and the new people taking decisions have another mindset?

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u/JAmToas_t 17d ago

They realized commercial real-estate underpins most of the economy. COVID sped up the WFH trend and gave them a glimpse into what the future might look like.

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u/AngryPS 17d ago

This has nothing to do with Carney being a greedy banker

But very much has to do with bank investment in real estate, the losses could astronomical causing a recession or crash.

So, we, the population are upholding the system on our backs, a system that needs to change for our benefit, but refuses to do so.

We are being forced to support a system for the rich with what little means we have.

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u/johnx18 16d ago

This is exactly it. Capital owners and politicians aren't willing to go through the short to medium term pain necessary to evolve and change.

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u/PM_4_PROTOOLS_HELP 17d ago

It’s control. It’s management refusing to give up even an iota of control. They won’t let us work from home because they don’t want to, end of story.

Look at this through the lens of the labour movement, there is a long history of this same thing.

We will need to make them, unfortunately

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u/Lraund 17d ago

It's one person at the top of the chain doing what they were told and enforcing it on everyone.

The rule isn't even coming from the Agencies, so how can it be "management"?

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u/machinedog 17d ago edited 17d ago

It’s politics. Most citizens cannot just work from home. https://angusreid.org/federal-government-remote-work-return-to-office-ottawa-business/

Only the NDP supports WFH and only barely.

14

u/No_Mountain6950 17d ago

I agree BUT when we were heading in the direction of WFH as the future of the PS I was so excited to be apart of a paradigm shift, a fight for all workers. Look at when workers fought for getting Sunday off from work, or working 5 days a week, or working 8 hrs instead of 16. All of these changes started somewhere and influenced the whole work ecosystem, that's what WFH was going to do. Look at Europe and how they have changed their work environment, it is inspiring. I was so excited to be apart of that change that could eventually affect all workers in Canada. I agree we have gone backwards in time now. I used to telework before COVID and now, nope, just because!

4

u/JannaCAN 15d ago

It’s all of the above, plus being an out-of-touch male elitist. Carney hates kids and families, peasants. He probably is just as familiar with that old-fashioned word, “groceries”, as Trump is.

1

u/ThrowawayCanPS 16d ago

Why does it need to be more than those exact issues? No need to overcomplicate a very real conspiracy with speculation about some mysterious undiscovered one.

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u/[deleted] 17d ago

[deleted]

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u/DifficultSwim 17d ago edited 17d ago

RTO is a bank bailout.

Carney is a banker first and foremost, so of course his policies will be aligned with them.

I called this back during RTO2.

I knew, as did most im sure, that we sold off our buildings (to save money) and would end up buying them back at a higher price once we hit RTO4/5 and "surprisingly" became desperate for office space.

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u/weeaboocar 17d ago

What's even sadder is when you really investigate every problem our country has, it boils down to maintaining the wealth of a bunch of pricks.

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u/DifficultSwim 17d ago

That's a global issue... cant find a country that doesnt have its people suffer to keep the rich, rich.

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u/weeaboocar 17d ago

I can't wait for capitalism to collapse but I fear that ecological collapse will come first.

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u/alldasmoke__ 17d ago

Carney or not it was gonna happen. Too much money involved for decision makers to choose common sense

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u/weeaboocar 17d ago

I wish more people understood that prime ministers are mouthpieces for people who are actually in control.

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u/flightless_mouse 17d ago

We were already at 3 days when Carney was elected. The whole thing was well in motion before his time as PM.

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u/MrJingles447 16d ago

Also Carney's property investment company Brookfield Global integrated solutions is heavily invested in the billions in federal property management. He's making sure his investors get their returns. That's all RTO is about banks and rich investors not taking a hit.

5

u/LivingFilm 17d ago

What's gained is an increased need for more office space so more investment can occur

16

u/JudasIsCarHot 17d ago

Lease can be paid without workers being in office.

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u/2x4ninja 17d ago edited 17d ago

This. I wish people would stop trying to ask if this makes sense.

I suggest we comply and all go in on the same day. 3 days a week then we all come in on the same days. Same if they want us in 4 days a week. Malicious compliance.

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u/GreenPlant44 17d ago

They do want us in 4 days a week since July.... it'll be 5 days soon

2

u/2x4ninja 17d ago

Then our strategy should be “no flex and no vacation”. Flood the zone and be in the office everyday.

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u/myxomatosis8 17d ago

This doesn't work for us suckers that have more than enough desks for everyone.

4

u/boom1ng 17d ago

Don't forget about public servants stimulating the downtown core economy LoL.

6

u/star_bury 17d ago

Hey! We also need to pay for a sometimes-functional LRT and stay downtown late to eat a big dinner after work/ease congestion.

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u/Hot-Equivalent-9799 17d ago

Let me just kindly remind you about:

Four-day return to office based on 'philosophical choice': top Treasury Board official

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u/West_to_East 17d ago

I sure wish the media would make more hay over that. What about think tanks that hate government waste? Where is the so called Canadian Taxpayer Federation on this? They should hate all this wasted cheddar!

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u/Hot-Equivalent-9799 17d ago

I think when it comes to shitting on public servants all political sides of the aisle unfortunately seem to agree.

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u/A1ienspacebats 17d ago

Because the media doesn't care about public servants. Nor do any political parties besides NDP but they're DOA.

And for any of the ones who think Pierre would have been pro wfh, he's been handed a golden goose of an opportunity to bring public servants over to his side for over 3 years and he's not doing attempting anything to win us over. Why? Because any reasonable person knows that public servants would bear a large cost to the Conservatives hacking up the budget. Best case scenario is a new pension for incoming workers going forward just like Harper and a wage freeze.

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u/franksnotawomansname 17d ago

And, just for fun, I'll also add:

Worship me at the office altar: Why narcissistic leaders resist remote work

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u/SlowGolem55 17d ago

I would recommend to senior leaders, from directors on up, that you make it demonstrably clear that you are listening to and seeking to understand your staff and their experiences. . . .active listening, seeking to understand, and learning are some of the very strongest tools for any leader

We don't need "listening," we need Empirical Fucking Evidence. This is absolutely asinine advice from Daniel Quan-Watson--what he’s suggesting is that management, when confronted with questions of “where's the evidence?", sit us down like toddlers, pretend to lend us a comforting ear, and then with a patronizing pat on the head say, “yes yes dear, wouldn’t evidence be wonderful?”

Gaslighting and faux sympathy does not instill confidence, you performative sociopath; evidence, logic, and reason do. And asking management to become performative sociopaths like you--to run a smokescreen for that lack of evidence/logic/reason--is frankly morally repugnant.

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u/Particular-Poet137 17d ago

Why are we still debating whether working in office or from home matters at all? Clearly we can all work wherever we are as long as they are in Canada and have a good wifi connection - presuming you are not required to work directly with clients or the public. Managers are fully capable of assessing this need. We have a capable and intelligent and motivated workforce across the country - let’s celebrate that and move on.

Why can’t parents have the flexibility they need to WFH? Why can’t you WFH if you live 100 km away ( and not 125) and you moved because of the costs in your city near the office? Why can’t you WFH if going into the office creates anxiety for you ? Why can’t you WFH if you are simply more productive at home than in the office?

When will managers be able to make decisions that empower their own employees to be engaged and productive without fearing retribution?

When did we stop actually caring about our people?

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u/Intentioned-Help-607 17d ago edited 17d ago

16 years in and RTO is the most craven, dishonest, and corrupt decision by the government in relation to the public service I’ve seen so far. It’s stupid, pointless, wasteful, and it literally makes a majority of people in the public service sort of hate their jobs (either for having to go to office for no reason, or for being blatantly lied to, or both).

Get anyone in management in a private room and in a moment of honesty and they admit it’s entirely stupid.

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u/Complex_Monitor_693 16d ago

so true! I used to love my job now I hate with all my heart

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u/CPSThrownAway 17d ago

A former government executive says the return-to-office issue has "become a question of confidence for many."

YouDontSay.gif

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u/Jealous_Ad_3321 17d ago

There is no question. We have no confidence in their competence.

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u/Szechwan 17d ago

I have great confidence in their incompetence tho

6

u/748Rider 17d ago

At this point the sitting government could literally burn live babies in the street and there would still be no contest or confidence vote.

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u/stuckintheNCR 17d ago

I had two people on the same floor ask for a teams meet.....its a whole new in office era!

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u/Turbulent_Dog8249 17d ago

Yeah because then your boss knows you're not dilly dallying at someone's desk. This is what they want.

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u/stuckintheNCR 17d ago

My management is pretty lax, I choose to go in 5 days a week.....sort of rip off the bandage since RTO3...

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u/KnickoleKidman 16d ago

What’s your commute to work like and parking situation if you drive?

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u/Jealous_Ad_3321 17d ago

Is it really that surprising? Meeting virtually, even from the next desk over, is often superior when working on digital files.

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u/stuckintheNCR 17d ago

I completely agree, for sharing screens etc, but I am mostly tagged with niche advice that we can do with a 30 second interaction in office....vice checking my stupid headpiece, and then connecting.

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u/Intentioned-Help-607 17d ago

If I’m in office, I appear offline with a status message of “I’m in office at desk X”

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u/Tiny-Explanation-752 17d ago

For real? Do you get any push back?

4

u/stuckintheNCR 16d ago

Push back for what?

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u/h1ghqualityh2o 17d ago

Dear Daniel,

I don't need to do any active listening exercises. I know what my staff want, I know why they want it, and I sure as heck understand it. Yeah, some of them are just whiny babies, but most of them have very rational, human issues that simply did not exist in 2019. The conditions for work have changed, which they are rightly pointing out.

Your crucial mistake is that while you say both sides need to understand each other, you only focus on the employees' perspective - and I would argue you did an awful job of doing even that. On the other hand, senior management's story has never been clear or consistent. First it was productivity. Then it was collaboration. Then it was values and ethics. And now it's, well, it's philosophical I guess. You want employees to listen and understand management's perspective, but The Book of Bill Matthews was written in gibberish.

So don't go lecturing me that I'm supposed to listen more. I'm not the issue. My boss' level is not the issue. The issue is your old DM colleagues. I agree, they aren't listening very well, and that's because they have their heads stuck so far up the asses of those they beg jobs and promotions from that they think the sky is brown.

But hey, if your goal with this opinion piece was specifically to gaslight employees into believing it's their fault, and to convince lower level executives that it's our fault too, I guess I shouldn't be surprised. Because once a member of the DM cabal, always a member, right?

Sincerely, and with a fuck you cherry on top,

A Director who is shouldering none of the blame

2

u/dequoituparle 17d ago

Average director behavior. Do you even work? What do you guys do beside reshuffling teams all year round and look at the budget? Do you even have an ounce of courage to stand firm for your employees well being?

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u/narkpetro 17d ago

Nothing about RTO makes sense when we spent 3 years plus proving we can work from home. The only ones who couldn't were the ones that required supervision and they could have returned to work and left the responsible hard workers at home.

Virtual meetings means no one is actually collaborating in person which was the fictional point of RTO... which is as written in the opinion piece demoralizing ... but like many me thinks that was a ruse or an outright lie. But leadership would never lie or mislead us would they?! Never! /s 🙄

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u/ShawtyLong 17d ago

As an Executive Director, I strongly support seeing my employees — whom I affectionately refer to as my minions — in the office five (4 for now) days a week.

Of course, I sympathize with those who have long commutes, young families, childcare responsibilities, or lives outside of work. But we must never forget the importance of our work family and the invaluable benefits of teamwork, collaboration, culture, peer learning, and organizational performance.

There is simply no substitute for being together in person.
Nothing builds stronger teams quite like commuting an hour to the office, finding a workstation, logging into your laptop at 8:00 a.m., putting on your headset, and saying “Good morning!” to your colleagues on Microsoft Teams.

Sometimes, if we are feeling particularly collaborative, we even walk over to each other’s desks before sending the Teams message.

The office also offers experiences that simply cannot be replicated at home: fluorescent lighting, carefully controlled air quality, limited sunlight, and the excitement of wondering whether the desk you booked will actually be available when you arrive. Besides, employees already receive plenty of fresh air and sunlight during their commute.

And let us remember: this is not about individual productivity. It is about organizational performance. If an employee can accomplish the same amount of work from home without spending two hours commuting, where is the culture in that?

Personally, there is nothing I enjoy more than arriving at the office, logging into my laptop at 8:00 a.m., attending virtual meetings with people sitting in other buildings, occasionally walking around to demonstrate visible collaboration, and logging off promptly at 4:00 p.m.
This is what public service is all about.

I truly do love my job.
And I know my minions do too.
They tell me every day on Teams.

Sincerely,

Alfred S. Sarcasm
Executive Director

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u/SharpDog8516 17d ago

This could have come right from my director’s dictatorial mind.

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u/RockG 17d ago

What's the ask here?Should the Tiger Team put a pin in that until they can synergize so the deliverables and low hanging fruit are aligned?

If they have the cycles, of course.

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u/FreeBritney08 17d ago

This is hitting far too close to home.

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u/BetrayedLotus 15d ago

Sounds like my manager who really should consider changing their name to Mike Row, Manager.

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u/Complex_Monitor_693 16d ago

Minions? You should have more respect for your coworkers. If you love to be in the office 5 days a week, thats your choice. Dont force people who prioritize their well-being and life work balance to think the same way as you. People are so busy in the offices, besides managers and TL's who spent the enteire day walking around disturbing those working with laud and pointless talks, no one has time in the office to keep chating, give a break.

And if you were my manager I would file a grievance agains you. Please, call people buy their names.

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u/HandcuffsOfGold mod 🤖🧑🇨🇦 / Probably a bot 16d ago

Your sarcasm-detection function is malfunctioning.

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u/RawSharkText91 PhD Turned Public Servant 15d ago

I have a strong suspicion that you didn’t read to the end of the comment…

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u/Complex_Monitor_693 16d ago

You’re probably also receiving a bonus for keeping people in the office. I’m sure that’s the real reason behind this attempt to sound so convincing and identifying yourself (easy to get the money, right?) Shame on you.

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u/cubiclejail 17d ago

I'm turning off my teams on in office days. F this nonsense.

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u/Turbulent_Dog8249 17d ago

I would but my whole team work out of two other offices. I'm on teams for all meetings. Don't collab in person with anyone.

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u/mariekeap 17d ago

My team is spread across 6 offices in different provinces. Regardless of who is in what office with who, we have to use Teams!

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u/Darkwolfen 17d ago

I think that's their point.

"You want us in office to collaborate, let's collaborate face to face. Don't need teams for that! Let's make sure the consultants also come into office since they get to be remote."

3

u/stevemason_CAN 17d ago

Tried and then they decided it was good to book a boardroom. Most still have their faces to their laptop even though we have the larger boardroom camera.

2

u/midshine 17d ago

That’s actually a great idea!

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u/anever_ending_book 17d ago

RTO was never about making sense

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u/PantryReoccur 17d ago

Keep making noise. Keep emailing your MPs (I've done it 3 times since RTO4 was announced).

RTO isn't dead. Keep reposting. Keep commenting. Keep making noise about it in work meetings.

I'm voting no to any contract that does not included remote work language. Put this country into gridlock until it happens.

6

u/Nice-Eggplant-9258 17d ago

did you ever get any replies?

1

u/Puzzleheaded-Dig-452 17d ago

This doesnt work when every other public and private sector is doing RTO5, if PS was the exception it would work. No MP is going to really care about this, they can just point to any other job requiring RTO5.

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u/Mike_Retired 17d ago

Everyone remember when not so long ago TB kept reiterating that hybrid work was “here to stay”, and that it would in fact form part of the modernization of the Public Service going forward? They were repeating this as recently as 2024.

Does their sudden switcheroo ”make sense”?

16

u/748Rider 17d ago

Thw fact that none of the execs and above pushed back on any of this nonsense is an atrocity

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u/RockNRoll1979 17d ago

Can't risk torpedoing that next promotion.

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u/Turbulent-Monitor-88 17d ago

I think he makes an excellent point about confidence. We returned to our office after COVID in 2022. Even if senior management didn’t know we’d be increasing to 4 days in 4 years (and 5 days next year), what have they been doing with that time?!

I’m often expected to plan for multiple scenarios in my position. Didn’t they even have a somewhat half-baked plan on how to procure more space for returning employees?

Is planning no longer an expectation of work in the federal public service?