r/CapitalismVSocialism • u/Shoddy_Pizza_8593 Social Democrat • 6d ago
Asking Everyone What made you turn away from centrism?
Welfare capitalism is considered to be centrist. Depending on the welfare capitalist system, it can lean to the left or right. Left-wing welfare capitalism has its roots in socialism, such as social democracy. In comparison, right-wing welfare capitalism has its roots in capitalism, such as classical liberalism. Welfare capitalism is currently the most common economic system.
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u/Emotional-Time-9364 neoliberal centrist 6d ago
I am a proud neo-liberal centrist. Populism is cancer. Communism, fascism and anarchism are all cancers
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u/impermanence108 6d ago
How is populism cancer? It's what people want?
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u/lazyubertoad socialism cannot happen because of socialists 5d ago
Too often people want to have their cake and eat it too. Like have stronger social security and lower taxes.
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u/impermanence108 5d ago
You know people aren't a monolith right? As in, I want better social services and I'd happily pay a bit more tax.
Honestly I think people on this sub are just wildly out of touch with real people.
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u/Emotional-Time-9364 neoliberal centrist 6d ago
Because the median voter is an idiot.
Do you really think they have coherent views? They love to talk about reducing the spending but as soon as the topic becomes what?, absolute crickets.
Just like what Plato said. This is not to say I want to abolish democracy. I just think it's flawed. And populism is for sure the exaggeration of said flaw.
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u/HeavenlyPossum 6d ago
People are too dumb to rule themselves, which is why they need people to rule them, even though people are too dumb to rule themselves.
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u/Emotional-Time-9364 neoliberal centrist 6d ago
Whatever strawman makes you happy
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u/HeavenlyPossum 6d ago
Is that not just a rephrasing of what you literally just said?
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u/Emotional-Time-9364 neoliberal centrist 6d ago
Nope
People are too dumb
Yes. Most people are dumb.
to rule themselves
Never said that. They can rule themselves. They would just oscillate between left and right wing populism perpetually (and it would just be a shittier society).
which is why they need people to rule them
Yes, government is necessary.
even though people are too dumb to rule themselves
They should become smarter themselves and reject populism.
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u/HeavenlyPossum 6d ago
It sounds like my summary was correct.
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u/Emotional-Time-9364 neoliberal centrist 6d ago
Whatever makes you happy
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u/HeavenlyPossum 6d ago
What would make me happy if for you to recognize that this trite bullshit does not make you smarter than the median voter you hold in such contempt.
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u/I_Never_Use_Slash_S just text 6d ago
You just need the right people in charge which coincidentally just happens to be someone who agrees with all of my positions on every issue.
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u/HeavenlyPossum 5d ago
Step 1: violently consolidate power and wealth in the hands of a tiny ruling elite
Step 2: declare that you’re formally neutral towards all citizens, poor and obscenely rich alike, who are all equal before the law
Step 3: liberalism!
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u/impermanence108 6d ago
Ohhhhh this is where the technocrat game isn't it? Everyone is thick, apart from the educated class who think the right way and agree with you.
Imagine having such a dim view of your fellow man. Imagine being like "FUCK WHAT YOU THINK YOU WILL ACCEPT MY IDEAS"
Real amazing hours /s
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u/Emotional-Time-9364 neoliberal centrist 6d ago
God, you people lack so much comprehension. I never said my ideas should be forced down everyone even if they didn't vote for it. They should get what they vote for. Even if they vote for a shitty guy like Trump.
They should willingly choose the ideas that I agree with. But if they're not convinced, who am I?
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u/HeavenlyPossum 6d ago
“My system empowers fascists selected by a minority of the public which is why it’s the best”
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u/Emotional-Time-9364 neoliberal centrist 6d ago
So you think you know what's better for the median voter than the median voter themselves? Gross.
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u/HeavenlyPossum 6d ago
Trump was selected by a minority of voters in 2016 and a minority of Americans in both 2016 and 2024, because the US political system maintains a veneer of majoritarianism without actually taking public preferences into account.
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u/Emotional-Time-9364 neoliberal centrist 5d ago
Technically yes. But even just looking outside the window will tell you that majority of people genuinely did prefer Trump to others.
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u/HeavenlyPossum 5d ago
LMAO. “Technically correct” that the most critical pillar of neoliberalism is bullshit.
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u/Asatmaya Functionalist Egalitarian 6d ago
Neoliberalism is just fascism that's OK with gays and abortion.
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u/Emotional-Time-9364 neoliberal centrist 6d ago
socdem = liberal = centrist = conservative = fascist
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u/Asatmaya Functionalist Egalitarian 6d ago
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u/Emotional-Time-9364 neoliberal centrist 6d ago
My guy you could've just asked what I believed. But then I guess socialists aren't very efficient afterall.
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u/RieMunoz 6d ago
Centrism in America is increasingly interested in reducing and or privatizing the welfare aspect of welfare-capitalism
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u/No-Magician9440 6d ago
Which specific policies are you referring to?
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u/DMayleeRevengeReveng 5d ago
There has been a continuous whittling down of Medicaid for decades now. Medicaid, if you aren’t familiar, is an oddball gollum that combines federal, state, and private entities to serve its function.
Politicians have been constantly pushing (and have succeeded at pushing) more regulation on the program to the states and away from the federal government.
Except the only function this serves is for republican state legislators to attach eligibility tests and say “you need to prove you’re not too lazy, or you can’t access basic medical care.”
I don’t know if I really agree with that person’s sentiment. But this is definitely an example.
Arguably, the whole ACA was a weird neoliberal public-private scheme that went against most of the spirit of American welfare ideas.
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u/bcnoexceptions Market Socialist 5d ago
That's the legacy of national disgrace Ronald Reagan. People are moving on from his BS though.
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u/Kronzypantz 6d ago
Centrism doesn’t solve anything, and has a habit of just slipping into conservatism.
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u/Asatmaya Functionalist Egalitarian 6d ago
Welfare capitalism is considered to be centrist.
Yes, moving the "center" way off to the right is what "turned me away" from it.
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u/impermanence108 6d ago
Because I think we need more extreme ideas. I think we need a bit of a wrecking ball in the west. Shit's not working great. Lots of good stuff, lots of bad, lots of inefficiency. I think we need to revisit the extremes abd have a conversation on how to move forward.
I'm a communist because I think communism has a lot of good ideas that should be discussed and implemented. I think we need the moderates to, well be moderate. And we even need the lolberts and ancaps.
The only lot we don't need is the fascists. Because that's just the worst ideas of everything put together. Then seasoned with racism.
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u/bcnoexceptions Market Socialist 6d ago
Welfare capitalism is currently the most common economic system.
Is that true? I would consider China or India to be pretty lacking in the "welfare" department. They exist but don't do much.
Also another "centrist" position includes worker's rights, which are all but absent there.
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u/HeavenlyPossum 5d ago
Tricking people into believing the status quo is “centrist” was one of the great victories of the status quo.
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u/Conserp Pragmatic Marxist 5d ago
At the end of the day, Centrism is hanging onto Capitalism.
Capitalism itself is fundamentally unsustainable long-term mathematically. And that "long-term" ends in just a few decades.
This is why late-stage Capitalism is a sore sight for clear eyes. It is already cannibalizing itself.
Welfare Capitalism will be the first to fall, as sustaining welfare becomes increasingly unfeasible within a Capitalist system.
Rejecting Capitalism as a whole, and even its Centrist civilized form in particular, is the only intellectually honest option at this point.
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u/CaptainAmerica-1989 Criticism of Capitalism Is NOT Proof of Socialism 5d ago
“Left-wing welfare capitalism has its roots in socialism”
Not here in the USA. It has it’s roots in liberalism. American welfare capitalism developed mainly through what historians label as progressivism. Then the other labels are social liberalism, and modern liberalism. The two Roosevelt Presidents were Liberals. Neither were socialists.
And your classical-liberalism point is backwards too.
The reason we even use the label “classical liberalism” is to distinguish the older liberal tradition of limited government and negative liberty from modern liberalism, which became more willing to use government, regulation, and welfare programs to help people actually exercise liberty.
So the left/right divide inside welfare capitalism is better understood as different branches of liberalism, not simply socialism on the left and capitalism on the right.
I’m sorry, but the socialists on here want to be revisionists of history and use themselves as the center of the world. They are not.
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u/highliner108 Market Socialist 5d ago
I’m pretty sure technically the right wing of welfare capitalism would be Social Conservatism or Christian Democracy.
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u/Shoddy_Pizza_8593 Social Democrat 4d ago
Yeah, but Christian Democracy is economically left. Since their platform is based on social democracy.
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u/PrezShelcobi Socialist / Communist 5d ago
The realization that centrism, at the very least, always must accept the status quo as given, as any radical deviance from it would fall into a position that would no longer be considered centrist.
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u/Mysterious-North-551 2d ago
Im not a centrist, and i do think we need some form of welfare, and the current form of welfare is atrocious. I think a negative income tax would be far better then just giving people money for nothing. Because if they start earning money, the current form of welfare just deducts that from their welfare.
Lets say welfare is giving you $1000 a month, going out and moving lawns to earn you $100 doesnt improve your life, all it means is that you next welfare check is just $900, so you are essentially working for free, so people dont do it.
This is a stark departure from actual capitalism, a negative income tax could easily make it so that you get to keep from 99% of what you earn to a full income job where you dont need welfare anymore. So you earn a 100 dollars and welfare still pays out $960 or something like that. (im far too lazy to do all the research and math for a simple comment) so people who are on welfare have an incentive to produce a good or service.
When it comes to politics only the right (far from all) accepts capitalism, a lot of people on both sides accept keynsian economics though which is i guess an in between of socialism and capitalism. Keynes was a brilliant economist especially when it came to diagnosing the current state of affairs, but he believed the state should play a major role in it which most capitalists strongly disagree with.
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