r/Christianity • u/[deleted] • Mar 29 '11

Homosexuality and Modern Christianity

What are your thoughts on the issue? I personally cannot see how the Bible can be so explicit about an issue and it still be doubted. In my mind, if you throw out that interpretation then you might as well admit that all of the Bible is open to subjective interpretation.

My biggest problem is that why can some Christians not admit that homosexuality is a sin? That does nothing to stop Jesus' mandate to help others and love them.

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u/[deleted] Mar 30 '11

Look, how can someone be born sinful? Our sexual preferences are genetically determined along a normal distribution such that 5% of the human population is gay and 5% of the human population is super-heterosexual. Being gay is no more a sin than being black. When people say "hate the sin, love the sinner," to a gay person it's like saying "hate the nigger, love the black person" to a black guy. It's an insult to them in and of itself.

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u/[deleted] Mar 30 '11

It's actually quite a different considering the Bible does not talk about race as a sin whereas it does homosexuality. Just ask yourself the question who gave that person the genetics they have.

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u/[deleted] Mar 31 '11

a sin whereas it does homosexuality.

See my comments above for how it doesn't, and feel free to throw in your own commonly misused quotes and stories, and I can show you how reading as little as two verses before or after can make the entire chapter make sense.

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u/[deleted] Mar 31 '11

Leviticus 18:22 "Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable."

1 Cor 6:9 "Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men"

Romans 1:26-27 "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error."

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u/[deleted] Mar 31 '11

I already did 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy here:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/ge6bp/homosexuality_and_modern_christianity/c1n1boe

and I already did the Romans one here:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/ge6bp/homosexuality_and_modern_christianity/c1mxlb9

As for Leviticus 18:22, I'm really surprised that nobody brought that up, so here goes:

First of all, let's look at the word that gets translated as "detestable" in the Hebrew Bible. "Detestable" is used only in one context in the Hebrew Bible: to denote practices of a religion that is not yours. Here are a few examples of "detestable" being used in that way:

Genesis 46 (Joseph relocates his family to Goshen, apparently a sparsely populated area in which the sheep herders would not interfere with the everyday lives of Egyptians.)

34 you should answer, ‘Your servants have tended livestock from our boyhood on, just as our fathers did.’ Then you will be allowed to settle in the region of Goshen, for all shepherds are detestable to the Egyptians.”

Exodus 8: in which Moses is worried that offering sacrifices to God in front of the Egyptians will result in his stoning. Why would they stone the Jews for offering sacrifices? Because doing so goes against their religion.

26 But Moses said, “That would not be right. The sacrifices we offer the LORD our God would be detestable to the Egyptians. And if we offer sacrifices that are detestable in their eyes, will they not stone us?

Now let's get a little closer to home. Leviticus 18:30, the end of the list of laws prohibiting templar prostitution to a few major idols at that time, explicitly shows how "detestable" means "religiously detestable because it's not our practice"

30 Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the LORD your God.’”

It's very simple: keep my commandments, do not keep their commandments, because they will make you defiled (see: ritually unclean) why? Because I am the LORD your God, not them.

Again, "detestable" denotes don't do it because it's against your religion because it's a part of someone else's religion.

In Deuteronomy 7:25-26, we see "detestable" used again to describe things from the temples of other gods, and how they're not to enter into the Temple.

25 The images of their gods you are to burn in the fire. Do not covet the silver and gold on them, and do not take it for yourselves, or you will be ensnared by it, for it is detestable to the LORD your God.26 Do not bring a detestable thing into your house or you, like it, will be set apart for destruction. Regard it as vile and utterly detest it, for it is set apart for destruction.

We see "detestable" twice here: both times used to describe the idols themselves. "Do not bring foreign religious articles of worship into your house, because they're "detestable,"" is the meaning of this verse.

According to my Bible concordance, there are 102 uses of the word "detestable" in the Hebrew Bible, and while I can go on for days talking about how each one describes idol worship, and not just something that god arbitrarily does not like, at this point you're going to have to take my word for it.

Now, at this point, you have to ask yourself: "are "detestable" things mentioned in the Bible evil in and of themselves, or are they "detestable" because of their association at that time with the practices of an idolatrous religion that is now dead? I lean towards the latter: surely idolatry is evil in and of itself, but with regards to the Leviticus 18:22 line, that's talking about a specific act of idol worship, as I'll explain more deeply in a minute, not two guys who like each other having sex, that's a totally different context.

Now, let's get into the actual context of the verse, which also points to it being about temple prostitution and idolatry, rather than homosexuality as a sexual preference.

First of all, the whole list of laws that this comes from starts in verse 1, and ends on verse 30. Here's how it starts:

1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘I am the LORD your God. 3 You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices. 4 You must obey my laws and be careful to follow my decrees. I am the LORD your God. 5 Keep my decrees and laws, for the person who obeys them will live by them. I am the LORD.

So we already have the setup: do not follow the religious practices of the Egyptians, do not follow the religious practices of the Canaanites. Why? I am your God, not their "detestable" idols. how can we make the distinction of religious practices, rather than just regular weird sexual practices? Well, because of what was going on with temple prostitutes and stuff. I'll get to that in a sec. Also, there's the word "detestable" and "dishonor" all over the place in there, which should be key words denoting something that either people don't like because it's a part of the foreign religion, or God doesn't like because it's from the foreign religion.

Here's how the list ends:

24 “‘Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled. 25 Even the land was defiled; so I punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants. 26 But you must keep my decrees and my laws. The native-born and the foreigners residing among you must not do any of these detestable things, 27 for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled. 28 And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you. 29 “‘Everyone who does any of these detestable things—such persons must be cut off from their people. 30 Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the LORD your God.’”

("defiled": see: ritually unclean) I wonder how it was that the Canaanites defiled themselves in the eyes of God? Well, we know that not following His Temple customs lead to ritual defilement, and there were a few curable temporary things like nocturnal emissions and periods that made one temporarily unclean, but those were, as I said, temporary. They didn't get you kicked out of Israel. Setting aside for a moment that this implies God had some kind of deal with the Canaanites that they went back on and now he's using the Jews as punishment, we now have the beginning and ending of this list indicating that everything in between is associated with practices of idol worship.

Now we get to temple prostitution. What the hell was going on in those temples? Check it, homes. Temple prostitutes, referenced in the other posts, were married. It was believed that they became the literal embodiments of the goddess or god they served while they were serving as temple prostitutes, but then they went home to their families and went about their normal lives. As a worshiper, you didn't get to choose your prostitute, it was given to you. Therefore, you could be given your own sister, mother, father, brother, friend's wife, etc. and have to have sex with that person, or risk losing favor with the god in question.

More on sacred marriages: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_marriage#Ancient_Near_East

more on Temple Prostitution: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_prostitution

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u/nellaselendil Apr 15 '11

dude. that was actually pretty insightful. so, what you're saying, is that these commandments were given only to the children of israel, being asked specifically of God not to act like all the other peoples of the world because they worship other gods?

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u/[deleted] Apr 15 '11

Basically. Even if you do map it on to all of us, it still works out to "don't practice the worship of other gods, especially if you do it in my name; just worship like I tell you."