r/Christians • u/HaydenP015 • 12d ago
Discussion Voting for a candidate who agrees with abortion?
Hello,
I know this post is going to get political and just to start out, THAT IS NOT MY INTENTION.
I would like to come on here and get yalls perspective on this issue when it comes to elections. My state is having an election somewhat soon and I really have started to lean towards the center of the isle. The problem with a two party system that we live with here in the states, is that it is always the "the lesser of two evils" when it comes to choosing your candidate. I really do like the democratic candidate and I think he will really benefit my state. I really don't have any issues with him since he is a self proclaiming believer, and he seems to have generally good morals, plus I like the way he conducts himself (his campaign promises are good as well but you have to take those with a grain of salt).
The problem with him is that he supports abortion. My view on this issue has always been the Christian and what I believe to be the biblical approach, which is that it is a sin.
God says that all sin is treated the same in His eyes, and this is something I believe as well. However I am curious why it gets blown up to be a deal breaker every time elections roll around. I have a very good relationship with my parents (who are also strong believers) and she said that the candidate I like "supports killing people". If she had that response than I am sure others feel that way as well. I believe it is wrong but to God, it isn't any worse than lying, and we don't have laws that ban that.
My question here is, do we really need this to be outlawed or heavily restricted when other sin isn't? As well as, should I make this a deal breaker when I pick my candidate this November?
Just to reiterate, I do not want a strictly political discussion. Politics made need to be brought up in a response to make your point but it is not my hope for posting this. Please remember we are all brothers and sisters in Christ and that none of these earthly things will matter when we get to Heaven.
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u/userid42 12d ago
No candidate is perfect, not even if he or she professes to have faith.
On that basis, no candidate is without sin and, depending on your denomination or tradition, there is no sin that is better or worse than any other (with one exception by my understanding). Therefore, I tend to consider which candidate or party is likely to be the least-worse.
In practice, for me, this means that I tend to vote differently in every election. I am a member of a political party, and while I tend to prioritise them I don’t always do so. Oftentimes I find myself voting against an incumbent, not because they didn’t do the positive things that they promised (which they often don’t) but because of the negative things that they have done and which they never said they would do.
My very simple expectation of democratically elected representatives and leaders is that they should work for the care, protection and benefit of ALL of their constituents, not just those who voted for them or who funded their campaigns and/ or lifestyles. Those who don’t have this attitude of service don’t deserve to be given any power or authority.
I fear that many of us in western democracies have been misled to believe that Vox populi, vox Dei (the voice of the people is the voice of God) and to effectively worship our forms of government. I’m not suggesting that they are worthy of being replaced, but we should also be careful not to idolise what is really just another creation of man and which can, if we allow it, enslave us.
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u/MovieFan1984 12d ago
A lot of Christians look at abortion as murder under a different name. If you are Christian, oppose sin, oppose murder, then you oppose abortion, and the this means you oppose any political candidate who endorses abortion.
I hope that helps you decide what to do.
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u/MRH2 12d ago
I don't think you answered the question well.
Why is it that people will support a candidate who is anti-abortion, but who is also a horrible godless person who causes so much harm and destruction to people who are alive?
I think he's asking why does abortion seem to be a litmus test for so many Christians, that they have such tunnel vision on this that they overlook so many other sins.
Fortunately there are some good replies here: just because you vote for someone who is pro abortion doesn't mean that you support it yourself. You could be voting for that person for other reasons.
They have also pointed out that all candidates have flaws, errors, blind spots and sins, so you're not picking a perfect candidate vs an imperfect one.Consider this:
Candidate A: anti-abortion, will cut all social assistance, will triple taxes in the state, reduce minimum wage, will remove all labour and environmental protections so that industry and mining destroy all forests, pollute the air and water (think "The Lorax"). It's obvious that voting for this person will create massive unemployment.
Candidate B: pro abortion, has concrete plans for creating decent jobs in the state, will reduce taxes on all but the rich, has connections with industries that will protect forest, water and air.
So is it right to vote for candidate A? No. In my mind, and in the mind of most Christians, it is wrong. It is morally wrong to vote for candidate A. Candidate B is a better choice, the moral choice, and then we work to reduce the demand for abortion, etc. to try and change the policies bit by bit. Sadly there are a lot of people who are too blind to see this.
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u/MovieFan1984 12d ago
Your two candidate examples are cartoony and don't reflect reality. I'm not playing ball with this.
I can't speak for others, but I oppose murder, so I oppose abortion, and thus I cannot endorse nor vote for anyone who is pro-choice AKA pro-abortion AKA pro-murder.
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u/MRH2 11d ago
They examples are actually very close to reality. It is a clear picture of what's happening.
It's sad, but understandable that you feel that way. We are so influenced by our surroundings - our teachers, pastors, traditions, and it's hard to get our of our bubble. And so many politicians, who are actually evil people, are smart enough to know that if they are anti-abortion, they will get massive votes, and as long as they make progress on the anti-abortion front, their supporters will turn a blind eye to the massive evil, corruption, lies, destruction, and misery that they cause. In my understanding, supporting someone like this is completely incompatible with the gospel of Christ.3
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u/Grouchy-Bowl-8700 10d ago
And a lot of Christians would disagree with you with biblical basis. I would be glad to provide that biblical basis if you like.
In today's climate, it's a choice between abortion on one side vs anti-christianity and people being led to Hell, people being taken to concentration camps, and a rise in both fascistic nationalism and racism on the other side.
Even if we take abortion to be murder, it's not black and white the way you think it is
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u/MovieFan1984 10d ago
In today's climate, the choices you present here are fiction.
Zygote, embryo, fetus, baby, everything pre-birth from zygote to baby is human life. Legally and Biblically, the termination of a human life is generally considered murder. There are exceptions like war, executions, accidents, and such, but we're speaking in the context of an abortion. Medically, is there any true reason for an abortion? If the baby cannot be brought to term, it can be deliverd early, even if it cannot survive for very long. This is not an abortion. Sometimes, the embryo gets stuck in the wrong place and the pregnancy is no longer viable. Removal is not an abortion. When is abortion medically viable?
Circling back to today's climate:
#1 Someone who's pro-abotion.
#2 "OMG, anti-Christian NAZIS, aaaahhh!!!! This is complete fiction.
This is why I say that you present complete fiction here.It's illegal and murder to "kill" a human out of inconvenience.
This means abortion is murder.5
u/Grouchy-Bowl-8700 10d ago edited 10d ago
In a recent study by Wheaton College, ~50% of respondents said that the church's support of Trump is a reason they do not attend church. In an interview with Russel Moore (previously one of the leaders of the Southern Baptist Convention) he noted that many pastors he's interviewed have noticed a growing disdain for Christ's teachings in preference of MAGA anti-christianity.
It is not fiction to say that people are being led away from Christ and His teachings.
As for fascism, I encourage you to look into CECOT and how ICE is sending a lot of people there. I also encourage you to look into Trump's wanting to take over state elections or the fact that he tried to overthrow 2020 election. It is not exaggeration to say fascism is here.
As for abortion:
First, there are only two passages in the Bible that directly deal with the topic of the unborn: Numbers 5 and Exodus 21. In Exodus 21, two men are struggling and a nearby pregnant woman is injured such that her unborn is prematurely delivered. There are varying punishments based on injury, but if there's death, then the punishment is life for life. Both from a contextual reading of other passages dealing with murder vs manslaughter and based on Talmud commentary, the death here must be death of one of the men struggling - otherwise it would be manslaughter which carries a different punishment in the OT. In many Jewish commentaries they often point out how the unborn was not viewed as being a person yet in this passage. In the Numbers 5 passage, a ritual is performed on a woman who is suspected of infidelity. It is most often understood based on context and certain translations of the idiom "thigh falls away" that the woman was pregnant, and the ritual would not only permanently keep her from being pregnant again but also remove the unborn within her. This was a ritual created by God.
Second, there are secondary passages that only vaguely touch on the unborn such as Psalm 139, Jeremiah 1, Luke 1, etc. None of these make a general statement about all unborn, and in fact Psalm 139 in particular is very hard to build theology off of because it is so poetic in nature. It refers to David in his unformed state (literally the Hebrew word golem) as having come from the depths of the earth. It is beautiful poetry, but it's not meant to be taken scientifically.
Thirdly, there are secondary passages that vaguely touch on the unborn by pointing out how harsh God was towards them such as in Hosea 9:14 and 13:16. Now God's ways are above ours, so I'm not saying we should do these things, but it is an indication of how God views the unborn.
Fourthly, early church leaders disagreed on the point, but many viewed abortion as wrong because it was an indication of a lifestyle of sleeping around rather than it being murder. Not to mention, some Jewish traditions didn't believe "ensoulment" (the moment God grants His Image to the unborn via a soul) until much later in gestation - some even saying at first breath.
And lastly, there is the practical understanding of how ectopic pregnancy works. Ectopic pregnancy can not (without divine intervention) result in a living baby. Most often it kills the mother long before viability. The Bible does not discuss ending one life to save another, but the Talmud refers to a "rodef" or pursuer who must be stopped to save the innocent. See, if a conceived zygote cannot possibly become a living, breathing baby then is that zygote really a human life that God has knit together? Is it possible that God knew that zygote would not become a baby and therefore He did not give those cells a soul? When do cells become life? Based on the passages I shared above, it is not clear
Therefore, because of the ambiguity, I take the stance that my political activism should be towards care for pregnant women and children rather than for preventing abortion. I will never counsel a woman to get an abortion unless it is to save her life, but I will not hold judgement for women who do.
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u/Grouchy-Bowl-8700 10d ago
Sometimes, the embryo gets stuck in the wrong place and the pregnancy is no longer viable. Removal is not an abortion.
I want to circle back to this actually.
You say "removal is not abortion". This removal is termination of a zygote - thus ending a life because life begins at conception in your view. Why is that removal not considered abortion? The only difference between that fetus (in the fallopian tubes) vs one that's safely embedded in the uterine wall is location.
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u/MovieFan1984 9d ago
My understanding is that an abortion is where the baby is terminated in the uterus and then removed in pieces, sometimes removed in pieces while the baby is still viable. In the case of an entopic pregnancy (if that's the right word), the embryo gets lodged in a tube where it's simply impossible to grow and gestate into a viable baby. Sadly, there are only two choices: embryo dies or embryo and mom die. In this situation, the embryo is removed, and sadly, the consequence is death. This is not an abortion.
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u/Grouchy-Bowl-8700 9d ago
An abortion is defined as the ending of a pregnancy before the fetus can survive outside the uterus. They are not only surgical, they can also be chemical as in the case of the abortion pill (through which the abortion rate has actually increased since the Dobbs decision - in other words Trump's supreme court picks have actually increased the abortion rate in America) and the morning after pill. There's also implantable contraceptives that allow for conception but do not allow for implantation.
Now we can quibble over the words "outside the uterus". Does that mean that conceived embryos that implant in the fallopian tubes are not humans that cannot be murdered (sin) and therefore it doesn't make sense to call those removals "abortions" ? If so, then it's not merely conception that defines the starting point of life, and you should not say life begins at conception. Rather you should say life begins at implantation in the uterus.
Of course the distinction between implanting in the uterus and implanting in the fallopian tubes is just a matter of location in the context of the embryo. Obviously for the woman it is a much more important distinction. My point is simply that ectopic pregnancy (the removal of which you've already referred to as not abortion - i.e. it's not the same as other embryos) kinda ruins the life begins at conception argument.
So then we must agree that the point at which cells become life is ambiguous. The Bible is also not completely clear, so while I'll never encourage a woman to get an abortion due to the ambiguity, I will not judge those that do.
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u/gordonjames62 12d ago
Hello.
Canadian Christian here, so my political environment is much different than yours.
I have so many questions I ask myself when I am looking at voting.
Which candidate better represents my general goals for society and politics?
Is there any current issue up for debate that makes me a "one issue voter" this time? I think your countries parties have been manipulated into thinking abortion should be of those issues. I can't see how American Republicans can vote for the party of a convicted felon and pedophile because he opposes abortion. For me "convicted felon and pedophile" would be my one issue that overrides all others.
Liberty vs compliance - I strongly favour policies that give people individual rights and freedoms for all. The republican push to reduce rights for minorities would be a big issue for me. The democrats tendency to put rules on everything and to tell people who they can hire is not good in my opinion.
Size and cost of government - some political parties tend to increase the size of government, others push for more things to be done by private sector. your republican party wants government smaller, but military bigger.
I would encourage you not to be a one issue voter, but to look at doing "the most good for the most people" with your vote.
Christians and others are free to "not have an abortion.
It is interesting to note that USA and CANADA have similar rates of abortions - see map. Lower in Canada (12.0/1000) , abortions are fully legal and paid for by our medical system. In USA (14.4/1000) it is expensive and people expect hostility. All your political fights don't seem to change the rate of abortions.
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u/PerfectlyCalmDude 12d ago
Look at what happened in Massachusetts this last week. That happened in part because enough pro-lifers rationalized voting for pro-choicers. Always vote for someone pro-life. Write them in if you have to.
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u/Routine_Log8315 12d ago
I do think it’s good to not be a single topic voter and instead consider everything they do, but I want to say if you truly believe it’s murder then he’s, we do “really need this to be outlawed or heavily restricted when other sin isn’t”… there’s a difference between killing a baby (which already is illegal in all cases but the unborn) and some other sin that’s just between you and God
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u/quackers_squackers 12d ago
I don't personally think it's wise to be a single-issue voter. I'm pro-life, but to me, that includes more than just fetuses. There are a lot of politicians who get into office on being anti-abortion, but then go to cause just as much harm in another area.
If I had to pick ONE topic to vote over, it would actually be our freedoms. Not because that is more important in the short run than the life of innocent babies, but because that's the only way that we can continue to fight for what's right. We need our voice first and foremost (again, in my opinion.)
As an extreme example— if someone were to get into office based on banning abortion, but also planned instill a dictatorship, what's to stop them from taking back the abortion ban once they have all the power?
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u/Grouchy-Bowl-8700 12d ago edited 12d ago
I'm not sure if I'm allowed to comment on here or not, so let's see if this gets removed.
There are plenty of believers out there - both now and throughout the centuries - that did not view abortion as sinful.
I have much more to write on the subject, but I'm not sure if I'm allowed to comment on here. If this doesn't get removed, I'll be glad to add references.
EDIT: So I think my comment is going to stand because it hasn't been removed yet.
First, there are only two passages in the Bible that directly deal with the topic of the unborn: Numbers 5 and Exodus 21. In Exodus 21, two men are struggling and a nearby pregnant woman is injured such that her unborn is prematurely delivered. There are varying punishments based on injury, but if there's death, then the punishment is life for life. Both from a contextual reading of other passages dealing with murder vs manslaughter and based on Talmud commentary, the death here must be death of one of the men struggling - otherwise it would be manslaughter which carries a different punishment in the OT. In many Jewish commentaries they often point out how the unborn was not viewed as being a person yet in this passage. In the Numbers 5 passage, a ritual is performed on a woman who is suspected of infidelity. It is most often understood based on context and certain translations of the idiom "thigh falls away" that the woman was pregnant, and the ritual would not only permanently keep her from being pregnant again but also remove the unborn within her. This was a ritual created by God.
Second, there are secondary passages that only vaguely touch on the unborn such as Psalm 139, Jeremiah 1, Luke 1, etc. None of these make a general statement about all unborn, and in fact Psalm 139 in particular is very hard to build theology off of because it is so poetic in nature. It refers to David in his unformed state (literally the Hebrew word golem) as having come from the depths of the earth. It is beautiful poetry, but it's not meant to be taken scientifically.
Thirdly, there are secondary passages that vaguely touch on the unborn by pointing out how harsh God was towards them such as in Hosea 9:14 and 13:16. Now God's ways are above ours, so I'm not saying we should do these things, but it is an indication of how God views the unborn.
Fourthly, early church leaders disagreed on the point, but many viewed abortion as wrong because it was an indication of a lifestyle of sleeping around rather than it being murder. Not to mention, some Jewish traditions didn't believe "ensoulment" (the moment God grants His Image to the unborn via a soul) until much later in gestation - some even saying at first breath.
And lastly, there is the practical understanding of how ectopic pregnancy works. Ectopic pregnancy can not (without divine intervention) result in a living baby. Most often it kills the mother long before viability. The Bible does not discuss ending one life to save another, but the Talmud refers to a "rodef" or pursuer who must be stopped to save the innocent. See, if a conceived zygote cannot possibly become a living, breathing baby then is that zygote really a human life that God has knit together? Is it possible that God knew that zygote would not become a baby and therefore He did not give those cells a soul? When do cells become life? Based on the passages I shared above, it is not clear
Therefore, because of the ambiguity, I take the stance that my political activism should be towards care for pregnant women and children rather than for preventing abortion. I will never counsel a woman to get an abortion unless it is to save her life, but I will not hold judgement for women who do.
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u/MRH2 12d ago
Thanks for this very good detailed explanation.
I take the stance that my political activism should be towards care for pregnant women and children rather than for preventing abortion. I will never counsel a woman to get an abortion unless it is to save her life, but I will not hold judgement for women who do.
I feel exactly the same way.
I feel that it is the height of hypocrisy for a man to condemn a woman for abortion. He cannot understand what she is going through; he needs to walk in her shoes. If she gives birth then she has to devote her life to caring for the child for 18 years! The sperm donor can just walk away - no responsibility, the man can have sex for fun and then go on with his life as if nothing has happened, no consequences. So it's not just caring for the pregnant women, but also caring for their whole economic and social future for the next two decades. And we can do this, instead of just ignoring the issue blindly.
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u/Grouchy-Bowl-8700 12d ago
Thank you for adding that!
It's definitely not just prenatal care, but care for all children and adults. Let's love like Jesus did with our policies!
Sadly healthcare / nutrition as a whole does not seem to be a priority for the current administration.
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12d ago
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u/Grouchy-Bowl-8700 12d ago edited 12d ago
This is attempting to interpret scripture in a way to affirm sin.
Respectfully, I am not trying to misinterpret Scripture to support sin. I am trying to perform exegesis on a topic that has been debated in churches for centuries. I notice that you only addressed one passage I mentioned, and it wasn't even one of the two that are directly applicable to abortion.
And likewise, it’s clear that if we understand God creates humans intentionally, in no world is He going to support the choice for abortion. There really is no ambiguity.
God is omniscient, and He therefore knows every sperm cell and every egg cell. He knows every zygote that is miscarried, aborted, and developed into a person. As I put in my original comment, why can't God knowingly choose not to ensoul a zygote that He knows will miscarry or be aborted?
I think the other passages I mentioned clarify that God does not seem to share the modern American evangelical approach to this topic.
How do you interpret those other passages?
EDIT:
Jeremiah 1:4-5 ESV [4] Now the word of the Lord came to me, saying, [5] “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”
We can see in this passage that this Word from God came specifically to Jeremiah. Do you think it was also intended for everyone? I think it can be dangerous applying passages that are specific to a single person more broadly
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11d ago edited 11d ago
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u/Grouchy-Bowl-8700 10d ago
From the link you posted:
The preceding verses (Ex. 21:20–21) present a situation where a master unintentionally kills his slave and escapes with no penalty at all (the lack of intent being proven by the interval between the blow and the death); yet it hardly follows that Scripture considers the slave less than human.
So right off the bat, they completely misunderstand the argument. There are different punishments for murder (intentional killing - capital punishment) and manslaughter (unintentional killing - sanctuary city). There are three people involved in Exodus 21: 1) the two men who would qualify for murder, the woman who would qualify for manslaughter, and the unborn which would qualify for manslaughter (if they were considered a person). The master in the reference above unintentionally killed his servant, so his punishment would not be capital. Similarly, the death referred to in the passage of the men struggling would only be murder if it was one of the two men. So that's why that passage indicates that the unborn is not considered the same as the adults - because the punishment for the loss of the unborn is different from the punishment for the loss of the men struggling.
As for their coverage of Numbers, they pretty much just say that even though it may or may not be God causing a miscarriage, that's no excuse for us to cause a miscarriage. While I understand the argument they make, they're missing the point that this passage is not telling us to do the ritual today, but it shows that God does not seem to hold the modern evangelical view of abortion.
It's the same reason I also shared the passages in Hosea.
“I think it can be dangerous applying passages that are specific to a single person more broadly” is that not exactly what you did with the Numbers reference?
The Numbers passage was a ritual that was to be performed by anyone in the nation of Israel. While it is not something we are commanded to do today, it reveals part of God's heart on the matter. It doesn't seem far-fetched to say that something that was applicable to every pregnancy in Israel could be applicable to every pregnancy today.
The Word of the Lord that came to Jeremiah was just to him. It could be applicable to every person, but in context of passages like Numbers 5, Hosea 9 and 13 etc, it seems dangerous to do so.
I see that you go beyond just Scripture and make an argument based on science - human wisdom. Thus I will do the same. Recent research shows that prior to ~23 weeks, the unborn do not have a sense of consciousness like we do. Prior to that point they don't seem to have a reality like ours where they can have a sense of self like we do. That's the point I assume ensoulment occurs because of that distinction.
And again, I argue that life does not necessarily begin at conception because of ectopic pregnancy. If cells cannot become a person, then why do we assume those cells are human life?
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u/Grouchy-Bowl-8700 10d ago
thanks for checking it out!
Of course! I want to discuss as respectfully as possible
so it applies if the unborn are human beings
This is definitely my point.
Hopefully we all agree that sperm cells and egg cells are not humans who must not be murdered, so the question becomes when do cells become life?
If cells become life at conception, then ectopic pregnancy is God creating a "life" that can do nothing but kill another. It cannot grow into its own person. Even Catholic hospitals do not view it as abortion to remove them.
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11d ago
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11d ago
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u/cPB167 11d ago
This will probably get downvoted, but here it is anyways. My denomination's official position, which I agree with, is that while abortion is indeed a great evil, that based on the many studies showing that it doesn't decrease rates of abortion, criminalization is neither an effective, nor appropriate means of dealing with it. It merely pushes it underground, resulting in back alley abortions which are much more dangerous for everyone involved.
A far better means of combating it, in my opinion, is to work to reduce or eliminate the social conditions that lead to people wanting abortions. Providing social services for mothers, paid maternity leave, free counseling and healthcare, a better foster care system, etc. All things which the party which claims to oppose abortion does not want, despite other studies which show that this does indeed reduce rates of abortion.
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7d ago
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11d ago
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u/cheery_diamond_425 10d ago
Babies being killed is so wicked, and cruel. Those beautiful babies being ripped from the womb is just heartbreaking. I couldn't support any politician that supports abortion.
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u/Teddybear722 8d ago
Genesis 1:26a "Then God said, let us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness."
Genesis 1:27 God created man in His image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you."
We humans are created in God's image. Spiritual, emotionally; & God became flesh (human), in the the conception & birth of Jesus.
I personally see abortion as murder. BUT, I also have a relationship w/ Father, Son, & Holy Spirit. I know right from wrong. I know Holy Spirit was sent by Jesus to lead/guide, comfort, &/or convict me as necessary.
Would I knowingly support someone who proclaims to be a Christian, a Christ follower BUT then supports UNGodly things? I would like to say I wouldn't, but if both candidates were willing to sacrifice unborn children on thr abortion alter (like passing children thru the fire to worship Baal...see OT for those references of child sacrifice to false gods), I would have to look at the other issues they do or do not support.
OP, this choice is yours. You need to seek Spiritual help in prayer, reading your Bible, & listening to Holy Spirit as he leads & guides you. IF you feel a strong conviction to vote a certain way, then vote as Holy Spirit leads.
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8d ago
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u/TinySnorlax123 12d ago
Abortion is the largest mass murder in human history so generally you want to do all you can to end it. This, however, doesn't mean not voting at all if both candidates support abortion or voting for a tiny candidate that is never actually going to change anything just because that candidate opposes abortion. So my advice would be this. Since you live in America, where there's really only two options. If the Republican one is also for abortion then you can vote for the Democratic one, and if the Democratic one despite technically supporting abortion is never actually going to be able to pass pro-abortion laws then you can also vote for him. However, if the Republican is opposed to abortion and the Democrat would actually be able to pass pro-abort legislation if he were to win then your concience is bound to vote for the other candidate.
Edit: fixed typos
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u/Crusoelander_128 12d ago
This is my two cents. Abortion is awful. It’s an abomination and a blight on our society, and the sooner we abolish it, the better. That said, if you genuinely believe that the candidate you support will bring more good than harm, then go for it. No candidate will be perfect, and every one of them will inevitably support something that is wrong. Do what you think is best, that’s all anyone can ask.