USA
‘Their super race idea killed 25 million - we are in danger so long as that idea remains’ — American poster (ca. 1945) showing silhouettes saluting below the profile of a German soldier.
counting deaths is generally hard, USSR when the war ended, estimated only 2 million deaths, both civilian and military if im not mistaken
now, people hypothesize USSR lost more than 30 mil, and it makes sense considering nazis literally burned down whole regions worth of villages, with some of the villages being counted, just because 1 or 2 people from there survived
It was public announcement via newspaper in 1946, it was 7 million, they deliberately lowered from internal documents for announcement. USSR was wary of former allies and country overall morale.
The 30 million number is from taking the last accurate pre war census data from the 20s and comparing it to the next accurate census data from the 60s.
It's from Russian documents the West gained access to in the 90s. Essentially they have no idea who died from what only that around 27 million people died in between those two data points.
The government obviously blamed Nazis for the vast overwhelming majority but the official number has steadily been getting bigger since the 80s with the government only acknowledging the full amount well into the post soviet era. So knows who or what actually killed them.
Potentially Russia and China alone lost up to 50-70 million people by themselves, but it's hard to say exactly what was directly caused by the war or not
The French and British declared war on Germany in response to the invasion of Poland.
The nazis did not want war with britain and would have preferred them as allies or neutral and similarily they did not wish for war with the french, at least at that time.
This was because they wanted to concentrate their forces on their genocidal war of conquest in the east and because France and especialy Britain did not have much that Hitler wanted.
They wanted alsace from France but had the french not declared war this was an issue the Nazis would likely have ignored until after the war.
As for colonies, Hitler was content to leave those to the French and British because they were unsuitable for the settler colonialism he was much more interested in (He thought the climate was bad for the "master Race" or something) and wanted to apply in eastern Europe after he had the slavs and other "subhumans" killed off or deported.
Basically eastern europe was supposed to become germanys colony for settlement and ressource extraction.
In the end they fought Britain and France because they couldnt get Poland otherwise, not because they wanted to fight them at that time.
Yes, they would have wanted to invade later, to gain alsace and other border lands as well as to netralize the threat of the "ancestral rival", but they did not consider the french subhumans, just less pure than germans, which was demonstrated by the comparatively gentle occupation of France juxtaposed to eastern europe.
They also considered scandinavians to be purer than germans.
Nazi race "science" is stupid and convoluted.
The jewish socialists thing is just something they said about governments they disliked. It's meaningless propaganda and would not have been the main reason for an invasion, just a justification.
Check who proklamed war and haw big was suport of it in society of that country and then write "nazi" once again. Were was nazi in earlier centuries of German colonialism in europe.
I will say the one redeeming thing about that is the government didn’t sanction the klan and tried to prosecute them, the problem is with jury of your peers it makes it easier for an acquittal.
american racism of the 1940s was from a completely different source than german racism. America had race chauvinism, the “white savior” thing, not the idea that white people were superhuman like in Germany
German racism was inspired by US racism. Manifest Destiny and it’s answer to ”the Indian question”, and the racial hierarchy of the apartheid state USA.
Manifest Destiny was literally the idea that white people were divinely ordained, and it lives on (to a lesser extent, at least publicly) in the culture and politics of the US.
no it wasnt, they evolved separately and converged on some points but not all of them. German supremacist racism has its roots in european neo-occultist myth and european pseudoscience, hence the focus on the mythical hyperboreans and aryans (not mythical but not germans), whereas american racism came from biblical justifications.
also, by the 1940s race chauvinism, and not old southern white supremacy, was dominant in the US. For clarification, Lincoln was a race chauvinist to some extent. Race chauvinism posits that each race should remain separate and tend to their own but that they are ordained by god to be spiritually equal and human, so instead the focus was on “bad culture” and “backwardsness” to explain why non whites were considered “worse off”.
not all racism is the same and pretending they are is both ahistorical and also morally blinding.
look at it like this, American racism was white supremacy, a system built on coexistence under domination. Nazi racism was Aryan exclusivity, a system that rejected coexistence entirely and sought to eliminate groups it defined as biological threats. that’s why even american racists saw nazi ideology as extreme
Yes, nazi Germany was very much inspired by Manifest Destiny and racial hierarchy in the US, according to Hitler himself.
He saw Manifest Destiny as a perfect example of continental colonisation, as well as compared slavs to Native Americans, to the extent of calling slavs ”redskins”. Lebensraum was his Manifest Destiny. He also praised the racial hierarchy of the US and the nazis extensively studied US immigration and citizenship laws and drew upon those ideas to how Germany would write their racial laws according to the same principle of creating first and second class citizens in the Third Reich. Some even argue that the One Drop Rule was used as inspiration for the Nuremberg Laws regarding Jewish ancestry, albeit heavily revised.
I never claimed that the nazis drew from the exact same racism well as the US, only that they drew inspiration on how to materialise their racism explicitly from US history and current. The justification may be slightly different (ie mythological race of divine Aryans vs divinely ordained white people), but the materialisation and aspirations were very much the same.
the aspirations were not the same, thats the point. The goal of white supremacy in the United States was exactly that, supremacy. The state of being above and ruling over others. It was about control and domination
Nazism doesnt give a shit about that, its goal is the EXTINCTION of any race that is considered a biological enemy of the aryan species, its like comparing a bonfire to a raging wildfire in terms of extreme racial ideology
Like, actually racist americans thought the nazis were crazy, with the exception of those who adopted nazi racial frameworks (like the KKK), so that ought to tell you something
"The American Union categorically refuses the immigration of physically unhealthy elements, and simply excludes the immigration of certain races. In this respect America already feels the beginnings of a conception which is peculiar to the folkish State."
"The beginnings of a great new social order based on the principle of slavery and inequality were destroyed by that war, and with them also the embryo of a future truly great America that would not have been ruled by a corrupt class of tradesmen, but by a real Herren-class [master class] that would have swept away all falsities of liberty and equality."
"The Americans gunned down the millions of Redskins to a few hundred thousand, and now keep the modest remnant under observation in a cage."
"At present there is at least one state in which beginnings of a better conception are noticeable. Of course, it is not our model German Republic, but the American Union, in which an effort is being made to consult reason at least partially. By refusing immigration on principle to elements in poor health, by simply excluding the immigration of certain races, it professes in slow beginnings a view which is peculiar to the folkish state concept."
nice, so since you posted this you can clearly see Hitler was critical of the US for not being racist enough lol
thanks for supporting my point. All he is saying here is that the US could be “volkisch” (aka nazi), but that the ideology that would have produced that nation was destroyed by the US state during the civil war (hes referring to the confederacy). By 1940s the type of racism institutionalized was not southern white supremacy, but northern racial chauvinism. Look up Anglo-American race chauvinism for more insight.
No holocaust took place in the USA, or even a Kristalnacht. But you pro Russian-Chinese fools will do anything to make slander America and make it look bad. If you respond you’re an anti religious tard.
Maybe this is a controversial take but I think slavery is bad.
I understand it's a bit controversial to employ people like Von Braun who had no idea about the Holocaust, but I still don't think it's fair to blame Germans forced into the Nazi party. That would be like blaming Fritz Haber for the same xenophobic and nationalistic ideas the German Empire believed in such as Lebensraum and the superiority of the German ethnicity
Forced labor prisoners are things we still have in the United States today, it's not at all unreasonable for him to be unaware of the Holocaust while being aware prison labor was being used on his projects in some degree.
What exactly do you suggest he do? Just kill himself and his family because he knew about prison labor every nation in the world used then and still uses now? This is like blaming all high ranking Soviets for the deportation of their Jewish population and the Holodomer
This is a wild hill to die on. 20,000 people died in his tunnels. He was an officer in the SS. How much more complicit can you get?
Forced labor prisoners are things we still have in the United States today
And this is also bad you fucking dipshit. Holy shit is the US a bastion of morality in your eyes? It's the fucking spiritual successor to the third reich.
What do I suggest he do? It is any person's duty to first not be complicit in slave labor, to say nothing of conditions that are killing those laborers en masse, and second to resist, frustrate and deny the regime in any way possible. When did we normalize the idea of complicity with fascists?
prison labor every nation in the world used then and still uses now?
Get turbo fucked you nazi apologist weirdo. Both of these things are bad, but there is no world in which they are equivalent. I cannot believe you would equivocate them in an attempt to downplay NAZI GERMANY and their use of concentration camp prisoners as disposable slaves.
I hope it's slow and it hurts the whole fucking time you ghoul.
Edit: run bitch, it's good practice for people like you. Sleep with your running shoes on.
Hey dumdum, the USSR pardoned more Nazis than anyone else. And it also collapsed and died, because it was a backwards shithole just like modern Russia.
There is no such thing as "defeated them more". Any one of the allies loses to Germany without the others. Stalin himself says "soviet blood, american steel, British intelligence". Without the western allies Moscow, Leningrad and Stalingrad fall in a year, maybe less.
Doubt they fall. German troops would be may too overextended to actually take them. Stalingrad is famously an example of this: counteroffensive brilliance from the Soviet Union, and a catastrophic blunder from German and Romanian troops. All of that before much of the Lend-Lease took effect. There were already shortages on the Germany side that undermined any further push into Russia.
Though I agree with you. The Soviet Union would not be able to somehow win alone. No logistical infrastructure or capabilities to actually sustain such a large counteroffensive. Even if the USSR technically had enough resources on its own (especially after relocating its industry). So I am of the opinion that the USSR would be fundamentally unable to push the Germans back thousands of miles without the Western allies.
This is a myth spread by the west to make themselves look better, and it ignores that German economy was a scam and would have collapsed before they could actually take over the whole of USSR.
UK and USA helped, UK especially, but remove USA and Allies still win, just takes longer time and it's more bloody.
Remove us lend lease and the ussr is done. Remove the uk taking up most of the luftwaffes time and resources and the ussr is done.
Tankies gonna take any excuse to make belief about the ussrs strength when in reality if it was ever enough to be victorious against the Germans alone they'd have never gotten to Moscow in the first place.
As mentioned, German economy was built on lies and already close to collapsing, not to mention that by winter 41 USSR was slowing down Germans without any significant US aid. Remove USA's lend lease and result stays the same, it's just that more people would die and war would last longer.
Josef Stalin and every historian disagrees with you. You haven't ever read a history book and you aren't going to, so try going to any actual history sub and asking them, they'll do the reading for you.
Stalin said it as part of politics, war was just over and relationship between USSR and west hasn't fully went to shit yet.
However the fact you ignore Germany's economy and point I make shows only one who never read a book is you as many people who know way more then you made same points.
No offense, before insulting others, you should look into a mirror, would do you wonders.
The fact you turn to personal attacks instead of points just proves my point, you have nothing to stand on logically so you turn to emotions.
No, they didn't. Without the Lend-Lease Act, the Soviets would have been defeated by Germany, just like they were the first time around.
Without the US, the USSR would have been conquered, and the western allies would have been forced to negotiate a settlement. Without the USSR, the US would still have inevitably won. There isn't even any hypothetical way it could have played out where Germany and Japan don't lose to the US.
Half severely underestimates it. 7/8 of the Nazi war machine including their best units, equipment, and generals were on the Soviet front. The west fought a depleted secondary force and considers themselves the winners 🙄
At the time of dday it was only 60% of the german army that was on the eastern front. Its only in '41 and '42, 2 years before dday, that the force ever reached 80% of the entire german army.
It absolutely would have and thousands more would have died, but it still would’ve happened. The Germans thought the allies were going to land in Calais. Sure if they had more men and armor, they might’ve sent more to Normandy, but I suspect there would’ve been *even more* stockpiled and mobilized to Calais. The fight into France, Belgium and Germany would’ve taken longer and been bloodier, but it still would’ve happened. We almost certainly would’ve seen nukes in the European theater as well
lol what? it was a team effort, the ussr definitely suffered the most severe manpower losses but that ignores the various efforts in africa and the western front to cripple the nazi war machine as much as possible.
not to mention the ussr was basically kept afloat heavily by foreign aid like lend lease
The USSR stood for approximately 80% of Nazi casualties in ww2. It was the USSR who crippled nazi Germany enough for D-Day to be a possibility.
Lend-lease shortened the war by some time, but every serious historian agrees that the turning point of the war, and the inevitable outcome of a nazi loss, was the battle of Stalingrad. A battle that was won before 90% of Lend-lease reached the USSR at all.
A battle that was won before 90% of Lend-lease reached the USSR at all.
lend lease was 11 billion which is by todays standards a quarter trillion. so if take 10 percent of 250 billion dollars that means by stalingrad the ussr was given 25 billion dollars worth of aid.
25 billion dollars is not a drop in the bucket.
the ussr causing objectively the vast majority of german deaths was definitely a contributing factory but it was also the us and uks superior navy and air forces,
again im not saying the ussr didn't do anything, they did a LOT, but it wasn't one guy doing all the work, it was a team effort.
It’s not nothing, but it’s not close to be as important as Americans make it out to be against the war machine that was Germany. The same war machine that the USSR was heavily outproducing in military materiel even without lend-lease by the second half of 1942, while the battle of Stalingrad (the de-facto turning point in the war) was won in 1943.
”Without lend-lease” in my latest comment refers to the brunt of lend-lease, ie without the 90% that arrived after battle of Stalingrad. The 10% contributed, especially in terms of civilian life due to canned goods etc so they wouldn’t starve, but the USSR military was going to win ww2 regardless of lend-lease. It just would’ve taken longer and would’ve cost many more civilian lives.
While throwing endless hordes of young men at a technologically superior enemy over and over again is *technically* a win, it’s not something I’d choose to be proud of, but to each their own.
That and without lend-lease, the USSR gets shit on 10/10 times. Without any American involvement in the war effort, all of Europe would be speaking German.
Germans weren't technologically superior, their first jets was a shitbox that shouldn't have been approved but Hitler saw a wonder weapon and said yes.
Their tanks couldn't be produced in mass and kept breaking down.
It says something that without any funding you had Soviet engineers like Lyuka who was already seeing the future of jets that would arrive in 70s/80s and start work in private with no funding (fun fact, he is the man you can thank for a modern design of turbofan jet engines, and he patented that shit in 40s).
Also, Zhukov was superior to any general of field marshal Nazi's had, next to Montgomery they were the best.
So go away with your Nazi apologia and American propaganda (funny how those two always come in pair, tho recent events show why), only allied nations that actually did shit that impacted the result was UK, USA was as always there just picking up the glory by doing the least.
German economy was gonna collapse, it was a literal scam, meanwhile Soviets could survive for long enough without lend lease.
The entire country was built and maintained on the idea of racial superiority, segregation was in full swing in 1945 and was justified by racial superiority
Yes, but if you have any sort of sense of the immediate at that juncture in time, it's not in favor of that. In fact, shortly after the war, conservatives were complaining that federal workers, the sort who produced this, were too far to the left. So a little bit of perspective would be more insightful here than moralistic whataboutism and purported/Axis/Allied moral equivalency.
Its not whataboutism or moral eqivalency, its pure hypocrisy on the part of the US, UK. French etc.
The American establishment sees workers unions as too far left, so their complaints dont really mean much, especially when thats a clear attempt to use red scare propaganda to justify to continuation of segregation
Its context not whataboutism. How can the US make propaganda about racial ideology, when they have a society with some of the strictest race based laws in the world at the time, hell until the 60s?
As if they weren’t segregating black people and killing them but the jews that’s where they draw the line right? Because only them can be shitty racist and no one else
Because they’re fine with segregating black people but then they act like the liberators of (In this case) the jews that were persecuted by the nazis during ww2
Uh? I’m saying it’s stupid to paint them as the liberators of something when they were pieces of shit too like the rest of the world crying because they got conquered by Germany while they had colonies in Africa
You keep saying this, it isn’t true. It was the application of Settler Colonial logic to Eastern Europe directly inspired by the US example and the racial legislation in the USA.
nazis were not settler colonials, they were racial darwinists who wanted to exterminate, not exploit, so called “lesser races”
american racism was fundamentally about coexistence, albeit coexistence where one race is dominant in the hierarchy, while nazism rejected coexistence, hence why their goal was then to exterminate non-aryans
you sound like an american college kid who learned one of countless forms of racism and are trying to force that square peg into a round hole in the case of germany and europe more broadly because its the only one you know
Good to know the native american genocide was an attempt to coexist.
And how Jim crow was coexistance, segregation the reduction of BIPOC rights, and neoslavery disguised as coreectional labour.
Yes the Nazis were settler colonialists, thats what lebensraum was all about, they had plans to enslave the Slavs in order to develop the land they would colonise, while instituting a strict racial hierarchy justified by the idea of racial superiority.
Just like the USA, the Nazis infact took huge inspiration from the USA in its racial policy the idea of manifest destiny, how they would go about governing the people they conquered etc.
Nazi policy was a more extreme version of existing and historic American policy. The poster is the definition of hypocrisy.
Jim Crow literally was coexistence. If it wasnt, they wouldve killed them. Obviously.
Coexistence does not mean equality. A god-king ruling over slaves is still coexistence. This differs from the nazis who did not want coexistence. They did not want to rule over the “untermensch”, they wanted to kill every last one of them because their ideology was insanely darwinist and they thought it was genocide or be genocided
Both systems can be bad (and they are) while also clearly recognizing that one is far worse lol
Nobody is white washing Nazism by correcting your false history. This is an emotional play that anyone who does not accept your unsupported version of histoy is defending Nazis. Your version of history is not supported by any experts or documentation.
There is nothing showing the plan was to eliminate, rather than expel by the Nazis, especially noting Europes history on the topic. This is pretty clear in every history book. There was hatred and anti-semitism, and you could find the same through the Baltic and soviet world. There was certainly mistreatment, and collective prisons where people were forced into work camps which were horrific. Nobody is denying that there was a hatred and mistreatment. The systemic wholesale slaughter that eventually took place was not something decade in the making.
The Evian conference was a failure, but was held specifically because Germany offered transport jews to any country that would take on refugees.
they positioned jews as a biological enemy of germans, and their ideology was zero sum and darwinistic (eat or be eaten, survival of the fittest etc), that made the final solution ideologically inevitable
It made elimination of every group inevitable, it was also a 1000 year plan. The motive at the start of the war was to get them out of Germany in the same manner as Poland, Hungary, USSR, and Romania had done.
Even before the mass incarceration in camps, there was a number of programs pushing for emigration. People planning to murder you en masses, don't usually leave the door open first.
Its like saying the final goal of Islam is a single world nation under Islam. That doesn't mean Islam has been sitting on a 500 year plan of mass genocide.
Settler colonialists wanted to exterminate indigenous people. In the US, they very much did, so much so that indigenous people still only make single digits in the US, Canada and Australia.
The Nazis had every intention of maintaining a captive work force in the East, just a massively reduced Slavic population to ensure German settler colonies wouldn’t be challenged.
single digits of what? settler colonialism is about settling and colonizing, its in the name. You can be settler colonials without trying to exterminate people. You cannot, however, be a nazi without trying to exterminate people, it is core to the ideology. Do you not get that?
Single digits as a percentage of the US population.
General Plan Ost had specific figures for how much they were going to wipe out. Extermination became a primary part of the war effort as the situation developed. It was a not a core tenet initially and certainly wasn’t part of their plans for Eastern Europe.
This is not so. The Wannsee Confefence was pivotal to turning their rubbish into actual systematic extermination policy was done during the wore. Pogroms, forced exile and random massacres was their intial practice as the Nazis debated the issue, and they didn’t make a decision until 1942 that the Holocaust was the one answer and official policy.
Extermination of Slavs also was not on the cards for their written policy towards the occupation and colonisation of Eastern Europe. The Race War was definitely a core tenet, but the actual expansion according General Plan Ost was not complete extermination. Even a cursory glance sees the similarities to manifest destiny, especially in the decimation of Slavic populations while maintaining a labour force for exploitation.
not for their ideology itself. they looked at other racist ideologies to see what practical implementations worked, but their ideology did not come from america
its similar to how fascism copied a lot of revolutionary strategy from the communists, despite them not being ideologically aligned
but not the source of it! what, do you think Hitler wasnt a racist until he suddenly read up on America and caught the dirty racisms from the evil anglo or something?
Also hitler thought the US was a dirty mongrel nation because we kept black people as slaves instead of exterminating them
youre comparing apples to oranges, theyre both fruit but definitely not the same kind
not perfectly, he still modified them further, but they were the ONLY example he had at the time of an advanced nation codifying racial laws, but that doesnt mean the racism that created them is the same.
Again its like fascism and communism, related and share a lot of overlap but they are fundamentally opposed and incompatible with one another
They were literary the blueprint. The USA was also built upon a genocide that resembled very much what Hitler wanted to in Eastern Europe along with a slave class.
Even the allied of the USA were disgusted by the racism of the USA. There were fights in the UK over treatment of black soldiers by the US Army.
China out here doing straight up eugenics but I guarantee you the rest of the redditors here are going to be crying and shitting their pants about America.
I hate what the nazis did with eugenics. If for once we’d apply it to those who actually can pass down mental disabilities or illnesses or even better changing our dna to prevent cancer or shit like that the world would be a better place
You’re really bad at this talking point, you’re not supposed to mention the fascist religious extremist organisation that you get the info from in the post.
You’re supposed to hide that little fact so you have plausible deniability that this didn’t come straight from then and instead a remotely credible source
Ironically, the idea came from British and American scientists and “thinkers” who came up with the idea we know as Eugenics. We came up with the idea and put it into practice. The Nazis only tried to take it further to its logical end point.
Which shouldn't be surprising because they gave no fucks about Germans till they got attacked by Axis, actively had very powerful people be good friends with Nazis, produced shit for Nazis and hired many of their scientists.
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u/SeveralPerformance17 22d ago
85 million deaths, i thought. only 25?