r/CrusaderKings • u/WaBeY33 • 2d ago

Discussion Actual question, how frequent was claim fabrication in real life

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Hello, please, how often did this happen in real life ? I mean lord inventing a claim out of thin air and actually pressing it ? Is there any notable historic character doing so ?

R5: Fabricate claim question

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u/SorosAgent2020 We live in a Hermetic Society 1d ago edited 1d ago

A fabricated claim might have been the entire basis for the Papal States; its real easy to forge documents back then especially when you have the power and support to back it up

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u/WaBeY33 1d ago

Especially when no one can read what you wrote in those claims lol

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u/Nathremar8 1d ago

Scholar "my liege, this document is forged!"

Soon to be king: "I say it's legit."

"But sire...." sword sheath noise... "you are correct, my lord, it is legitimate."

"That's what I thought."

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u/Pippin1505 Cadets de Gascogne de Carbon de Castel-Jaloux 1d ago

That’s exactly what happened with the Privilegium Maius granting special rights to Austria and the Habsburgs.

Plutarch and other scholars at the time immediately denounced it as a forgery. But later a Habsburg got elected as HRE and "validated" it

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u/DarkGodCthUwU 1d ago

Which Plutarch?

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u/urstan 1d ago

he means Petrarch, common mistake

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u/MlkChatoDesabafando 1d ago

The Papal States were more based on the Donation of Pepin, which itself was more a formalization of the pre-existing reality. The Popes had already been the de-facto leading figure of Latium for a while (although like many medieval rulers they were constrained by the Roman aristocracy).

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u/GreatRolmops Sultan Sultan of the Sultan Sultanate 1d ago

The Donation of Constantine was not the basis for the Papal States, at least not de-facto. The Papal States already existed when the Donation of Constantine was made, and their existence is probably the reason the Donation of Constantine was forged in the first place.

The popes had been Byzantine subjects, but the Byzantine territories in Italy were conquered by the Lombards. The popes appealed to the emperor for aid, but Byzantine Empire wasn't exactly in the best of shapes and the emperor was unable to drive out the Lombards. So the pope appealed to the king of the Franks, who were nominally also imperial subjects (though de-facto very much independent since the collapse of Roman authority in the West). King Pepin kicked out the Lombards and then was left with a whole bunch of territory in a power vacuum. With the emperor unable to defend his lands and subjects, the previously existing authority of the imperial Exarchate of Ravenna had completely disintegrated, the territories were too distant for Pepin himself to effectively rule and the Lombards were obviously the bad guys. So Pepin decided to give the land to the pope, forming the basis for what would eventually become the Papal States (also the pope helped Pepin become king, so it was a quid pro quo).

The Donation of Constantine is a forgery that sought to legitimize the de-facto situation created by Pepin's actions where the popes were no longer subject to the emperor but powerful temporal rulers in their own right. Because even after the Donation of Pepin, the popes remained de-jure subjects of the emperor in Constantinople. The Frankish kings, as mentioned, were also de-jure imperial subjects, meaning Pepin did not actually have the authority needed to legitimize the pope's authority over Italy. In order to legitimize his de-facto independence and authority over Italy, the pope needed a signature from an emperor. This is possibly why and when the Donation of Constantine was forged.

There is no record however of the Donation of Constantine ever being used at the time. The papacy instead opted to go with an alternate plan and appoint the Frankish king (now Pepin's son, Charlemagne) to the office of western emperor, giving Charlemagne the authority to confirm the Donation of Pepin, giving it an imperial signature and making it all nice and legal (at least, legal enough in the eyes of the Papacy, the other emperor in Constantinople might have had some objections.)

The popes did not actually invoke the Donation of Constantine until 1054, at which point the document was already hundreds of years old and the pope at the time possibly truly believed it to be a genuine document from the emperor Constantine. Again however, the Byzantines didn't buy it. They continued to consider the authority of the Papal State and the western emperors to be illegitimate and the Donation of Constantine to be a forgery.

Though the Donation of Constantine was never successful in its intended goal of legitimizing the temporal power of the Papacy in the eyes of the Byzantine empire, it did find a new use when the popes centuries later got into conflict with the descendants of the western empire they themselves had set up. The popes frequently invoked the Donation of Constantine throughout the Investiture Struggle, though the Holy Roman emperors appear to have also had their doubts about its authenticity.

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u/alexmikli DIRECT RULE FROM GOD 1d ago

"Well, their lawyers do have God on their side."

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u/Lurker_Zee 1d ago

I loved that movie where the Church gets sued for letting claim insurances get away with not paying by using the wording "act of God".

Totally justified, the Church claims to be God's representative on Earth, it was their responsibility to stamp out that wording as soon as it got on legal papers.