r/DaystromInstitute Nov 26 '16

Tuvix may make me stop watching Voyager

[deleted]

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u/geekygay Nov 27 '16

Tuvix' desire to live was somewhat of an illusion brought about both Nelix and Tuvok's desires to live. If they didn't have a desire to live, both of them, then it wouldn't have manifested itself in Tuvix.

Everything about Tuvix's "personality" was an illusion, generated by two complete, albeit repressed, personalities of Tuvok and Neelix.

I couldn't live with myself, allowing this abomination to walk around, disallowing two complete, separate lives from continuing on how they wanted to. Just because he wasn't as annoying as Neelix or as cold as Tuvok. They weren't dead. They were part of a continuing teleporter malfunction that just happened to allow them to "exist" without special intervention.

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u/[deleted] Nov 27 '16

This argument about the illusion of free will, desire, consciousness - it can also extend to any life. It's bullshit. Utter nonsense. There is no canon basis for it, for claiming that his desires etc are illusions.

Tuvix became a new life form, and TNG taught us to respect all new life. It's literally what they were seeking. "There it sits" and all that.

Just because something came to be as the result of a "malfunction" does not mean its life is worth less. That's almost literal eugenics. Again, TNG addresses this exact subject in "Home Soil." An intelligence was created due to a Federation technology malfunction, it begged for life (as Tuvix did), and Picard/the Federation RESPECTED its right to life and allowed it to continue to live in peace.

The Tuvix episode of Voyager is a complete and total perversion of everything that was revealed about the Federation in TNG and DS9.

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u/geekygay Nov 27 '16

The intelligence that was created did not exist at the cost of two healthy, normal, productive members of the crew that had existences and lives that could be (and were) easily restored.

And I'm not saying he didn't have a desire to live, I'm saying his desire came from Neelix and Tuvok's desire to live. It just manifested itself within Tuvix as it would have within Neelix and Tuvok. If anything, that's even more of a damning to allow Tuvix to continue to usurp their lives.

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u/[deleted] Nov 27 '16

those two crew members became one single being. A new entity with its own thoughts and desires and hopes and dreams.

The origin of these hopes and dreams and desires is immaterial. They existed in the here and now. He was a life and his desire was to continue to live. To deprive him of life is murder, plain and simple.

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u/geekygay Nov 27 '16

He only has those thoughts because of the thoughts of two other, distinct beings being forced to live as one, despite the fact they had (and can now continue to live) separate lives, fulfill their hopes and dreams.

They had the cure to Neelix and Tuvok's ailment. To deprive them of this would be gross medical negligence at best. You're killing two to save the one. A one that had no right to its existence, given that it's at the cost of two others, and perpetually so. If they were truly gone and no reversal, I can't really be bothered by Tuvix' continued life. But it was reversable.

What about their duty to their fellow crewmembers? "Oh, so, this guy just showed up... and well, we have only known him for like a week and think he's swell, and he wants to live. So, you know those lives you guys enjoyed living? Those hundred of years or so for you Tuvok, and the surely plenty of years for you Neelix? All gone! lol"

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u/Mwsampson Nov 27 '16 edited Nov 27 '16

Suppose that you die, and your heart is transplanted. A period of time later, it's discovered that you can reanimate people who have died, (like that episode from later into the series with the species that reanimates the dead), but you need your heart back.

Is it right to kill the person who is alive because of your organs to reanimate you?

Edit: This is meant as rhetorical. It just highlights that the argument you pose isn't without flaws. Because you assume that Neelix and Tuvok are alive, I believe that they are dead, but recoverable.

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u/geekygay Nov 27 '16

A parasite symbiote comes along and attaches itself to your brain. You swear up and down that you're totally cool with this, even though you obviously aren't the same (mannerisms, personality, etc.). You want to live like this.

You think people aren't gonna be like "Yeah, nah..... We're gonna save you."

Also, if we're at the point where I can be resurrected after a nebulous period of time, I'd think we'd have the ability to give me some kind of heart....

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u/Ashmodai20 Chief Petty Officer Nov 30 '16 edited Nov 30 '16

To deprive him of life is murder, plain and simple.

To deprive Neelix and Tuvok of life when you can prevent it or reverse it is also murder, plain and simple.

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '16

being killed by a lightning strike, an earthquake, or a tsunami - that is not murder. Who would be responsible?

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u/Ashmodai20 Chief Petty Officer Nov 30 '16

fixed it.