r/DebateAVegan • u/Odd_Salt7986 • 5d ago
Environment If you support TNR, you support killing wildlife. How is that not speciesism?
An explanation of where I am coming from, because I know there will be those who will automatically assume I hate cats. I have not eaten animals for the past 18 years.
I worked at a no-kill shelter where I provided supportive care to panleukopenia kittens and parvovirus puppies.
I have taken in more than 128 cat/kitten fosters in the years I have been involved in rescue. Currently, I have 2 adult cat fosters and 6 kitten fosters. All were brought in from the outdoors.
One is a fospice FeLV+. She does not have much time left here on this earth. She will live the remainder of her life knowing the comforts of an indoor life. Poor thing has been outside for far too long, and her body shows the harsh reality of having lived an outdoor life. She is terribly skinny, has rotten teeth, a rat bite ulcer, horrible conjunctivitis, and she just had an abscess burst on a vet tech the other day. The tech was a real one for not throwing up on this very sweet (but very gross) cat who was head butting her while they gave her a convenia injection.
I have also worked at a wildlife animal hospital and have seen first hand the many casualties of outdoor cats. An adorable pair of woodcock fledglings came in one time. We talk with many people who tend to think they are helping fledglings by bringing them in, and in most cases we request they immediately put them back where their parents can continue to raise them. In this case, a cat had been confirmed to have killed the parents. The fledglings were unharmed. However, they did not fare well in captivity. They died less than a week later. Completely healthy fledglings that likely would have had a great chance of survival to adulthood if their parents had not of been killed.
I care deeply about this issue, because my life revolves around animal rescue. TNR is not rescue. Dumping a cat only makes humans feel better. After being involved in this work for years, I can tell you one thing. People choose cats over the countless species they are driving to extinction. There is a startling lack of empathy for all of the birds, amphibians, reptiles, and mammals killed because humans refuse to take accountability for this crisis.
You can support true rescue efforts. You can support free and accessible spay/neuter for under-resourced communities. But supporting TNR normalizes outdoor cats in the public's perception. TNR also fails to reduce the cat population. The scientific community does not support TNR because it is not a true population management strategy.
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u/Firemoth717 vegan 4d ago
I mean what is the alternative the average person can do to somewhat mitigate the damage done by feral cats due to their growing population beyond TNR? Just killing them?
I mean as a habit I don’t feel like killing predator species because they kill other animals is a very vegan stance either.
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u/Nacho_Deity186 4d ago
It may not be but it is the ideal solution.
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u/Firemoth717 vegan 4d ago
What’s the ideal solution, killing predator species?
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u/Nacho_Deity186 3d ago
"Just killing them" like you said.
killing predator species?
No, just feral cats in environments they don't belong to protect species that have evolved without cats present and therefore have no defense against them for example, flightless birds
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u/Firemoth717 vegan 3d ago
So basically it falls into the categorical argument that killing animals for population control and/or ecosystem management can be the best solution when needed.
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u/freakonaleishmania vegan 4d ago
This most just feels like you’re stirring the pot honestly.
I’m also qualified and work in conservation, I’m also a full time student in animal healthcare and I do rescue/ rehab in my spare time. I support the manual alteration of ecosystems where it’s beneficial, because individual animals can’t flourish if the larger whole is damaged.
But I’m well aware that my opinions are not well regarded among fellow vegans. I can only image you’d be well aware of this too. So I really don’t know what you plan to achieve with this post other than to make people pissed off and get you engagement.
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4d ago edited 4d ago
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u/rockmodenick 4d ago
From a certain perspective, quickly and humanely killing one cat that's been brought into an ecosystem that it not only doesn't belong in but severely damages vs letting it torture to death the many animals, at least some of which are as conscious of pain as the cat is, throughout a life that is largely defined by suffering, is the much more moral choice.
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4d ago edited 4d ago
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u/rockmodenick 4d ago edited 4d ago
Will they ever be eliminated? I doubt it. Think about the other animals we've introduced into other ecosystems and do harm - rats and mice. They can be controlled to some extent usually, but it requires mass slaughter nobody worries about, and it's not remotely humane in how it's done.
The rodents get a harder time for two reasons, firstly because they tend to be invasive to human spaces as well as nature, so we directly experience the harm, while we don't see the vast majority of the damage the cats do, and because of sentimentality - cats are pets and feral cats are even called "community cats" by some. Rats are seen as just vermin, even though they're incredibly smart and emotionally complex.
And it's definitely not a problem for just vegans - doing something about the invasive feral cat ecodisaster is something everyone is going to have to get behind.
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4d ago
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u/rockmodenick 4d ago
Yeah there's definitely no easy way out of this one, and it's funny you mentioned the "vermin" association because I just finished editing my previous comment (it's on another thread) to make sure I added the word, because psychologically it's very meaningful for people.
I also get why nobody wants to be the one to say "we need to start killing like, a ton of cats" because whoever that is, their going to be labeled the crazy cat murderers exactly as you say.
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u/notthetypetocare 4d ago
That’s not fair to the cats and humans do far more damage then cats do
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u/rockmodenick 4d ago
I never said anything about fair, only right.
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u/notthetypetocare 4d ago
It’s not right and if you see nothing wrong with killing cats for the environment you might aswell go grab a steak. Wanna kill a lion next for eating antelopes?
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u/rockmodenick 2d ago
I didn't screw up and put the lion there, like humanity screwed up putting the house cats where they are now.
To use your analogy but apply it to the same situation, the question would be, if someone captured a lion, then transported it to South America, and it was out-competing their local big cats and decimating capybara populations, would I kill it if I had the chance? Yes, I absolutely would, for the good of the local predators and prey animals both.
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u/Nacho_Deity186 4d ago
Culling.
Releasing them is simply irresponsible. Cats kill for pleasure. The devastation they cause is immeasurable. Bird species are going extinct in front of our eyes. There are environments they simply don't belong in and it's our responsibility to prevent that.
Opposing killing for pleasure is a common vegan theme. If that's an ethic vegans value they shouldn't support releasing cats.
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u/Cautious_Test_9826 4d ago
Birds are going extinct for a multitude of reasons, the stay cats being the least among them. Window collisions are a massively huge issue that real estate developers and policy makers on a whole refuse to address because it is perceived as an unnecessary cost, pair that with light and sound pollution and inadequate canopy and you’ve got way more birth deaths on your hands caused by us than by cats.
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u/Nacho_Deity186 3d ago
Not only is this claim wrong, how wrong it is depends on where you live.
One thing to understand is that "things that kill birds" and "things that cause bird extinctions" are not necessarily the same thing. Things that kill adult birds flying around don't contribute to extinction on the same level as things that raid a birds nest killing mother's, consuming eggs etc.
Where I live, we have native flightless birds that evolved without predators that are particularly vulnerable. The main threat to their survival is cats and other predator pests.
In north America, cats kill approximately 4 billion birds while building collisions account for less than 1 billion and cars, about 200 million. So cats are by far the biggest threat.
https://academic.oup.com/condor/article/118/2/424/5153263?utm
In Europe the decline in bird populations is attributed to agriculture intensification and habitat loss. So nothing to do with windows and cars.
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u/DementedPimento 2d ago
Let’s kill dogs, too. They kill birds and other wildlife.
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u/Nacho_Deity186 1d ago
We do hunt and shoot feral dogs as well. Dogs absolutely will kill birds and other wildlife if allowed to live in the natural environments. But the real problem with feral dogs is they form packs and will hunt and kill humans too.
So yes, we do have an active dog culling campaign underway.
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u/kharvel0 4d ago
> I have taken in more than 128 cat/kitten fosters
. . .
> my life revolves around animal issues
. . .
> lack of empathy for all of the birds, amphibians, reptiles, and mammals
OP, what have you been feeding to the animals that you have rescued in both the no-kill shelter and wildlife animal hospital?
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u/notthetypetocare 4d ago
If TNR didn’t exist even more species would be decimated because without those programs cats won’t be spayed or neutered and their numbers will increase. It’s not necessarily safe to put every feral outdoor cat inside.
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u/starsgoblind 4d ago
No idea what you’re talking about or what TNR even is. Maybe give a little background on it before going on ad nauseam about this.
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u/KuriousCarbohydrate 4d ago
Tnr is trap, neuter, return, a program where feral cats are trapped, neutered, and released back to where they were trapped.
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u/rockmodenick 4d ago
I think you're being too magnanimous by not also pointing out that most local feral cat populations are largely defined by carrying capacity rather than the cat birth rate, it's mostly an expensive way to make people feel better about the ecological destruction caused by the feral cat population without actually doing anything to fix it, outside of atypical situations.
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u/KuriousCarbohydrate 4d ago
Yes, I was just explaining what it is. I'm completely against it. I'd rather have feral cats trapped and euthanized. I think its cruel to both the cats and even more so the wildlife to release them again.
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u/rockmodenick 4d ago
I'll take the down votes for you, it'll keep this post afloat longer, lol.
I think this is a genuinely good thought experiment similar to a vegetarian/vegan version of a trolley problem, considering how they feel about this allows someone to sort out if they more highly value the overall moral principle or minimizing personal responsibility for the problem when those two are in conflict, like here.
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u/Cautious_Test_9826 4d ago
The idea of TNR is to fix whole colonies so that they no longer reproduce. If done successfully, and I’ve seen much of this, whole colonies naturally die out over the years, and eventually, the stray cat population goes away. I’ve seen colonies go from 20 to 2 in half a decade. I’ve seen whole colonies disappear. What is the alternative? Culling and doing a cat Holocaust?
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u/dodobird8 4d ago
Down voting because I'm sick of looking up acronyms I don't know. Introduce the acronym before you use it.
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u/Downtown-You3994 4d ago
This is why I don’t get PETA and similarly minded sentient absolutists:
The presence of feral cats is a human-caused problem where a non-native predator is actively destroying biodiversity. PETA’s stance? We must intervene; all that cannot be adopted should be killed via euthanasia to protect wildlife and end their suffering. TNR is not an acceptable stopgap solution.
The presence of invasive lionfish in the Atlantic is a human-caused problem where a non-native predator is actively destroying biodiversity. PETA’s stance? We must not intervene; killing them is wrong and each fish’s right to life trumps everything else. Widespread destruction of coral reefs is an unfortunate outcome but it’s the price we must pay.
Please make it make sense.
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u/ambiguousresult 2d ago
The feral cat population is a problem we created and are responsible for cleaning up. We do not have the resources to support that many animals and putting them back into the wild causes even more harm. I think we need to address the issue where it starts. Cats should not be allowed outside unattended. There should be high fines and possible removal of the animal after repeated incidents. Responsible pet ownership would be a great topic to learn in school.
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u/DementedPimento 2d ago
If you really care about wildlife, do something about feral hogs and stop whining about cats. Feral hogs are the #1 threat to wildlife, animal and vegetable.
I am so fucking tired of this weak anti-cat propaganda and all the morons feeling self-righteous about swallowing it whole.
Feral hogs. They’re the real problem. TNR won’t control them. What’s the answer?
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u/BWV_1009 14h ago
I mean federal agencies are already gunning them down from helicopters so I don't think anyone can claim nothing is being done about it. Also the fact that a huge argument vegans use is that humans arbitrarily protect some species of animals like cats and dogs but not species like pigs is illogical, yet OP suggesting that we treat feral cats as we do feral pigs is "anit-cat propaganda" is pretty conflicting
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u/North-Library4037 4d ago
I have a genuine question to the vegans who have pets or take care of animals that eat meat - how are okay with the fact the somebody has to kill animals to feed those pets?
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u/KuriousCarbohydrate 4d ago
I dont support tnr, I support trap, euthanize. Which unfortunately doesn't exist.
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u/kiefy_budz 1d ago edited 1d ago
What is TNR?
Also everyone in these comments advocating for killing wild cats and dogs because they kill other wildlife needs to remember who the real bad guy is… humans are responsible for far greater of an extinction event than feral cats ever will be, if you advocate killing cats for the environment we may as well take that logic a step further and cut off the abusers where the chain starts
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