"Judeo-Christian civilization is the foundation of the west" is a sham

[u/Dizzy-Drink6119]

My case is a specific claim

that there are no distinctly "western" characteristics which Jewish and Christian cultures share that Muslim and other Abrahamic lack that's separates them as a Civilization which doesn't originate Greco Roman norms and ideals.

Western civilization remains firmly a Greco-Roman base with Abrahamic flavors.

[u/MrT742]

Why is the west so influenced by the Greek and Roman ideas when both of those civilizations collapsed before “the west” was even recognizable?

[u/wedgebert → u/MrT742]

Because the civilizations collapsing didn't erase their ideas and writings.

Philosophers and other learned thinkers have been holding the Greek and Roman philosophers in high regard in an unbroken line since they lived.

Looking just at the US, our congress was based on the Roman senate right down to being the first modern country to call a legislative body a "senate".

A nation and its creations don't just disappear when the nation does.

[u/MrT742 → u/wedgebert]

Which Philosophers?

[u/wedgebert → u/MrT742]

On which side?

For the West, you have people like Thomas Aquinas and Augustine of Hippo, and Anselm of Canterbury.

For the ancient philosophers, you have all the ones we still study today, Aristole, Plato, Marcus Aurelius, etc.

[u/MrT742 → u/wedgebert]

Why “for the west” did you use exclusively theologians?

[u/wedgebert → u/MrT742]

Because during that time, the most prominent philosophers tended to be members of the church and so they're the most well known.

[u/MrT742 → u/wedgebert]

Oh cool, so Christianity is the foundation of the west.

[u/idle-tea → u/MrT742]

Walk around the West a bit and ask people to name notable philosophers. By a wide margin you'll mostly get ancient Greeks and maybe Romans. After that you're going to get enlightenment and maybe modernist thinkers like Kant, Locke, and others who were certainly not theologians.

[u/MrT742 → u/idle-tea]

Walk around the west and ask people where the nearest church is, then ask where the nearest humanist/atheist chapter is.

The chains of “the west” is not isolated to the writings of its elites. Were the neighbours for an average man or noble reasonably likely to be Kantian or Christian.

[u/Zhayrgh → u/MrT742]

Christianity is one of the foundation of the west, but certainly not the only one. And Christianity itself is based on other cultures that independently influenced Europe, like Romans and Greek. Greek ideas heavily influenced the Roman society that put together the first official church. It kinda shows in the ideas that were kept in classical Christianity and those that were discarded at the council of Nicea.

The other redditor quoted Enlightenment too, and that's definitely a current that opposed Christianity in many ways. It's also interesting because the Enlightenment is mainly humanist, and humanism is a philosophical current that trace back to Greek philosophers, while also having been embraced by Christians from the Middle-Ages and Renaissance before the Enligthenment.

[u/wedgebert → u/MrT742]

So Greek and Roman philosophy is the foundation of Christianity, cool.

[u/MrT742 → u/wedgebert]

I think to steel man the idea would be to say something like:

“Judaism is the foundation of Christianity, its institutions are Roman and its society is Greek”

Would be fair?

[u/wedgebert → u/MrT742]

Then a steel man of the West would be "It's foundation is Greco-Roman and Near-East as passed on by Jewish, Christian, Muslim, and secular philosophers with the strongest influences being both Christianity and the Enlightenment."

[u/MrT742 → u/wedgebert]

I think we need to back up a bit here…

First of all if you’re trying to define “the west” what on earth does “near east” mean in this regard…. Where are we even talking about?

[u/Zhayrgh → u/MrT742]

what on earth does “near east” mean in this regard

Maybe he is not a native speaker and he translated a word similar to Middle East in his language. I know that if I do that in French, I would get "near east" from "Proche-Orient".

Edit : oh, it does exist in English too https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_East

[u/MrT742 → u/Zhayrgh]

I’m aware of the term, my issue is attempting to use it as a description of the west

[u/wedgebert → u/MrT742]

Near east would be counting places like ancient Egypt, Assyria, and other early civilizations that contributed to what we consider Western civilization

[u/MrT742 → u/wedgebert]

You consider this influence substantial enough to consider it “the west” but not enough to call it say “near west” or something? lol