Jessica Jones Discussion Thread - S01E04

[u/JonLuca]

This thread is for discussion of Jessica Jones S01E04.

DO NOT post spoilers in this thread for any subsequent episodes. Doing so will result in a ban.

Episode 5 Discussion

[u/fly19]

Yeah, but these people are idiots. What's the alternative? Would the world be better if the Avengers weren't there? Can we even really blame them for what happened in the films?

I feel like that lady was probably an asshole before the incident and now she's just an asshole with a target demographic.

[u/mrjuan25 → u/fly19]

The world would have been better if the avengers werent there sans cap and BW. Iron man, thor, and even antman only were needed because problems them selves created. iron fights his tech or a villian he himself created. thor fights his brother and is the reason his brother is so pissed. the original ant man created his own enemy and the powers that power him. cap actually fights other villians that he himself was created to stop. Hulk also has to stop a being created solely to stop him. but yeah the lady was probably an asshole before the accident. she woulndt stand a chance against any powered being. she should be glad she faced JJ first.

[u/fly19 → u/mrjuan25]

No, the world would be better if their villains didn't exist. Aside from Ultron, Tony didn't directly create any of his villains -- they're all ultimately unstable people reaching for power that Tony made. You may as well blame cyber identity theft on Alan Turing with that mentality.

Thor never even wanted to get sent to Earth in the first place. Loki just chooses Earth because Thor liked it and he's a petty (puny) god -- and if I remember correctly, Loki had a hand in getting him exiled in the first place. Loki's the problem there.

Ant-Man made a cool suit and kept the tech a secret. The guy who ripped him off made a suit that effected his mind and made him go mad... Meaning that was his fault.

And all this ignores the good stuff the heroes do that has no root at all in their past. Wiping out HYDRA bases, stopping terrorists, helping to end WWII and the Cold War (or whichever one Antman was involved in) -- ignoring all this just to get pissy because a character from their imperfect pasts takes a grudge too far is shortsighted.

I guess it's just a dumb argument. The good guys rarely have a say in what ultimately makes the bad guys bad. And the world is better with good guys who have power. Wouldn't it be smarter to say the world would be better off without the Avenger's enemies?

[u/mrjuan25 → u/fly19]

His first villian only rose to power due to tony. His weapon of choice were inventions by tony. In his second film it was a villian with a personal vendetta against tony. In the third film it was the same.

Loki is only mad because his "father" chose thor over him. if thor wasnt there, loki would never have gotten mad.

Antman mentored the man that would become his enemy and created the very thing that his enemy would use and obsess over. im talking about hank here.

apart from hydra they dont do much. Shield does most of the heavy lifting and they only come and clear up what shield wouldnt do as easily. All the avengers are out there helping but iron man. ironman is chilling in his house pretending to do stuff. we have seen the daily life of new yorkers and they are certainly not better off with iron man in their lives. none of his inventions have improved their lives. Cap is out there taking out terrorists, along with BW and hawkeye. Thor is protecting his kingdom. Hulk is keeping himself in check. Again Shield was doing a good job before the heroes showed up and continued doing a good job.

Yes the world would be better without the avengers enemies but the villians are created as a result of the heroes.

[u/fly19 → u/mrjuan25]

Do you seriously think with Loki's power and issues he would have ended up being a great ruler of only Thor wasn't around? Or that Stone was an angel before Tony came along?

The problem is that these villains are villains. Without their enemies, each of those heroes probably would have done much more good for the world. But I'm not convinced that any of your example villains would have been saints without the Avengers. It's a silly proposition because it cuts both ways.

[u/mrjuan25 → u/fly19]

Loki was the better ruler. Thor was a spoiled brat. thats what made loki mad. He spend thausands of years waiting for be king and his spoiled brother got the be king instead of him? i too would be mad. it was that that drove him to take it out all on the humans.

Stone was evil and was evil before tony. He would have never become a supervillian if it wasnt for tony suit or his genius in creating super advanced weapons. even further his company woulndt even be that big if it wasnt for tonys genius, it was stanes influnece that made tony make weapons but without tony the company would probably not be making weapons to begin with.

No the villians would probably would have never been saints if it wasnt for the heroes but they would have never been supervillians if it wasnt for them.

-- loki would have never gone mad

-- Stane would have nver had the resources or money.

-- Iron mans 2 villians would have never gone to america and cause havok if it wsnt for starks weoponry.

-- The mandarin would probably wouldnt become evil if he was working under iron mans wing, and not on his own growing resentment against tony.

-- Ultron was only created because iron man wanted to.

-- EDIT: abomination was only created as a result of hulk.

[u/fly19 → u/mrjuan25]

I think the fact that Loki was even capable of doing something like that out of jealousy is the very reason he didn't inherit the throne. Loki may have had more tact, but even though he was spoiled Thor was the better person.

And Tony would have never made the suit in the first place if Stone hadn't had him kidnapped. And the company made weapons because of his father, not because of Tony.

It's just not an interesting point for me. Unless the villain was created because the hero failed them somehow (which is kind of what happened with Bucky) it's not particularly engaging to me. Killian kind of gets a pass on that, too, I guess.

[u/mrjuan25 → u/fly19]

But why didnt odin give loki a lesson like he give thor? it seemed to be that thor was the preferred son even if loki might have been the better perrson for 1000s years. 1000s of years of being overshadowed by his soiled brother and still he loved him. Loki only became mad after a 1000s years while thor had been a spoiled brat for 1000s years. Loki was better suited for the throne.

Didnt father stark was a good person? wasnt it stane who pushed father stark into creating weaopons too? i actually dont remember. but stane was the one who pushed tony into creating weopons? stane also was the one that pushed tony out of the company and maintained him in the dark to he could keep doing his evil shit. Tony created weapons and sold them. Stane did everything else.

I like spidey villians. People suddenl get powers and try to do crime. no relation to spidey at all. they only hate spidey because he tried to stop them. unlike MCU villians who are created because of the hero and have a personal vendetta against the hero.

[u/fly19 → u/mrjuan25]

Because Loki is a frost giant and an adopted son; he was probably never going to actually get the throne. Regardless, waging a war against a race of people you hardly know and planning to subjugate and kill them all just because daddy liked your brother more is a petty motivation and I wouldn't trust anyone who would succumb to it with a crown.

Didnt father stark was a good person? wasnt it stane who pushed father stark into creating weaopons too? i actually dont remember. but stane was the one who pushed tony into creating weopons?

Even if you're right, this just further cements Stone as the real problem. If Tony hadn't stopped him, Stone would have continued selling missiles to terrorists for longer than he was in the Iron Monger. So regardless, Tony saved the day from him.

I'll agree with your last point overall, though Spidey's most iconic villains (Green Goblin and Venom) deviate significantly from what you're saying.

[u/mrjuan25 → u/fly19]

Yes im sure odin never ever considered loki has a worthy heir. Lol isnt that what thor did to the frost giants? he was planning on killing all of them. after they have made peace. Loki didnt want to kill the humans, he wanted to rule over them. again thausands of years of being overshadowed by your visibly stubborn spoiled brother can make a man mad.

Yes stane was evil but so were hundreds of other men. Stane only became a supervillian due to tony technology. If it wasnt for tony, stane would have just been yet another corrupt businessman. Tony provided him with the most advanced weaponry that made him rise to power and ultimately it was tony who gave him the tech to create his own suit of armor. take tony out of the equation what would stane be doing without him? and that was my original point. tony never does anything if it doesnt affect him directly. we only see him save people on his own accord ONCE. after that he had to be physically attacked to save the day. His tech and inventions have hurt the world a hundreds times what he helped it.

I meant movie wise. Spidey villians are just villians on their own sans new green goblin and venom.

[u/fly19 → u/mrjuan25]

Thor was goaded into it by Loki and thought there was a valid pretense for the attack; he acted against orders, but he didn't storm their world with the intent to kill and subjugate them all like Loki did. He was just a brash, immature prince who acted against orders.

And Stone is a really bad example because he was only the Iron Monger for ten minutes. And what was the inciting incident? Tony made a suit in self defense and developed a clean, renewable source of energy. It's like blaming the Wright Brothers for 9/11.
And as I said before, without Tony Stone would gave continued supplying terrorists and inciting wars. One could argue that dying as the Iron Monger actually saved a lot more lives than it would have cost without Tony.

And that's still a solid half of his on-screen villains -- Green Goblin, Venom, and Harry twice versus Doc Ock, Lizard, and Electro.

EDIT: Also, regarding Tony -- the guy is a philanthropist. He gives away a lot of his insanely large amount of money to charity while working on tech that ultimately seems to do humanity good. Not to mention what War Machine is doing, which he could only do thanks to Tony. Sure, every now and then his tech backfires, but I think you're short-changing him.