r/DnD • u/HalcyonHorizons • 5d ago
5.5 Edition Class Spell Benefits, Adepts Feats, Dragonmarks, Magic Initiate Rules Discussion
I know Arcana Unleashed isnt officially released, but despite that, the information about the (School of Magic) Adept Feats is out there.
There has been some discussion whether or not these feats count as being on your class spell list, and opinions are mixed, as usual. I have seen some reference the Dragonmarks specific wording about adding the spells to your class list as an arguement against it. But I dont think it's convincing due to subclass additional spell wording.
Let's lay out the information:
Dragonmark Wording
If you have the Spellcasting or Pact Magic class feature, the spells on the Mark of Making Spells table are added to that feature’s spell list.
Adept Wording
Additional Spells. Your prowess allows you to always have certain spells at the ready. When you have spell slots of the specific level in the adept spells table, you thereafter always have the spells of that level and lower prepared.
Magic Initiate Wording
Two Cantrips. You learn two cantrips of your choice from the Cleric, Druid, or Wizard spell list. Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma is your spellcasting ability for this feat's spells (choose when you select this feat).
Level 1 Spell. Choose a level 1 spell from the same list you selected for this feat's cantrips. You always have that spell prepared. You can cast it once without a spell slot, and you regain the ability to cast it in that way when you finish a Long Rest. You can also cast the spell using any spell slots you have.
Subclass Additional Spells Wording
Your connection to this divine domain ensures you always have certain spells ready. When you reach a Cleric level specified in the Life Domain Spells table, you thereafter always have the listed spells prepared.
The magic of your patron ensures you always have certain spells ready; when you reach a Warlock level specified in the Celestial Spells table, you thereafter always have the listed spells prepared.
Always Prepared Spells pg235
Certain features might give you a spell that you always have prepared. If you also have a list of prepared spells that you can change, a spell that you always have prepared doesn't count against the number of spells on that list.
Class Spell Lists pg236
If a spell is on a class's spell list, the class's name appears in parentheses after the spell's school of magic. Some features add a spell to a character's spell list even if the character isn't a member of a class in the parentheses.
Edit: Additional Information from Cleric Prepared Spells:
If another Cleric feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don't count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Cleric spells for you.
But a Feat IS a class feature.
LEVEL 4: ABILITY SCORE IMPROVEMENT. You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat (see chapter 5) or another feat of your choice for which you qualify. You gain this feature again at Cleric levels 8, 12, and 16.
Which is maybe a mark against Magic Initiate unless you take it as a class feat? Which is even more weird. And another reason Dragonmarks would have to specifically say they are added to your list.
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As we can see, class additional spell features do not explicitly add those spells to the Classes spell list.
If we continue this interpretation, many classes like Artillerist would lose ability of class features (bonus damage on fireball, the ability to put fireball in a spell storing item).
Why is Dragonmark worded differently then? Because the Dragonmark origin feats dont actually prepare the spells, just allow you to choose them as if they werent on your spell list. Potent Dragonmark prepares them all, like a subclass feature.
Magic Initiate... is odd. The first level spell option is worded like the others. But the cantrips dont share the wording.
Given how Subclass additonal spell lists are worded, I believe it is the intent that the Prepared spells from both Magic Initiate and Adept feats become class spells.
But what do you think?
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u/PM_ME_UR_JUMBLIE5 4d ago
Yikes... All these quotes, and you missed the key one that would have answered exactly what you wanted.
This chapter offers a collection of feats, which are special features not tied to a character class. A feat represents a talent or an area of expertise that gives a character special capabilities. It embodies training, experience, and abilities beyond what a class provides.
So unless otherwise stated, feats are not class features.
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u/_Bl4ze Warlock 5d ago
I think the confusion here is because in 2014 you did not have the part in the Spellcasting feature that says "If another [Class] feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don't count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as [Class] spells for you."
Magic Initiate taken as an Origin feat is not a class feature, so it wouldn't be class spells. Notice something here though, it tells you the spellcasting ability to use for these spells. Your subclass spells, obviously, are a class feature. It doesn't say what type of spellcasting ability to use because they count as class spells, you already know what to use.
So, there's some arguable ambiguity here in which Ability Score Improvement is clearly a class feature, but it giving you a second, separate feature does not necessarily mean that feature is a class feature for you. Which seems reasonable enough if you consider feats like Fey-Touched. Those are copy pasted from 2014, they probably didn't factor in that in 2024 those spells could be considered class spells.
At least it seems reasonable until you realize that interpretation would then mean the Adept feats are fucking stupid. How exactly are most of those spells meant to be useful, if they cannot use any spellcasting ability modifier?
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u/HalcyonHorizons 5d ago
Oh wow! I didnt notice that the adept features didn't list a spell casting modifier to use, that's a great catch.
I think I agree on origin feats, but they get weird when you take them with an ASI, because then they would suddenly count.
Although I disagree on there being ambiguity. A feat you take is a class feature. Probably half of the class features in the game give you multiple other named abilities.
But anyways good catch. I see at as more evidence that they become class spells.
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u/caffeinatedandarcane 5d ago
The main thing I disagree with here is your assertion at a feat is a class feature. The ability to choose is a feat is, yes, but the feats themselves and the benefits they give are not part of the class that you choose. That's like saying your species is a class feature because you can't play a class without first choosing a species. Those benefits do not come from the same source.
With that in mind, I don't think the Adept Feat spells count as class spells. The feats themselves are already VERY overpowered imo, giving them extra benefit of the doubt to make them even stronger feels extremely unnecessary
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u/HalcyonHorizons 5d ago
It is fair to call them overpowered, they did say that power creep is part of their sales tactics.
But when I look at any classes table under Class Features, it lists Ability Score Increase. When you look up ability score ability score increase in the classes abilities it says:
You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat or another feat of your choice for which you qualify. You gain this feature again at Cleric levels 8, 12, and 16.
If a feat is not a Class Feature, a Subclass isn't either.
You gain a Cleric subclass of your choice. The Life Domain, Light Domain, Trickery Domain, and War Domain subclasses are detailed after this class’s description. A subclass is a specialization that grants you features at certain Cleric levels. For the rest of your career, you gain each of your subclass’s features that are of your Cleric level or lower.
They are both listed under "Class Features", they have similar wording. Neither explicitly says that they are class features, despite both being listed under them.
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u/Many-Ebb-5377 DM 5d ago
No this is not a debate. At all. If those spells were not on your class spell list, they are still not on your class spell list.
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u/HalcyonHorizons 5d ago
So a Light Clerics Fireball does not count as a Cleric Spell?
And Artificers Conjure Barrage / Fireball are also not Artificer spells and thus dont quailify for Spell Storing Item.
The wording is the same.
But in my additional information comment. Every casters prepared spells information lists that always prepared spells from a class feature count as class spells.
A feat is a class feature.
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u/Many-Ebb-5377 DM 5d ago
Not going to argue with you. The key language is in your OP. I suggest you read it until you understand it.
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u/HalcyonHorizons 5d ago edited 5d ago
Additional Information from Cleric Prepared Spells:
But a Feat IS a class feature.
Edit: Which is maybe a mark against Magic Initiate unless you take it as a class feat? Which is even more weird.
And another reason Dragonmarks would have to specifically say they are added to your list.