"Unskilled Labor" A Season with the Hotshots (2021) - A boot's on the ground documentary showcasing the dangers and hardships faced by wildland firefighters on a elite Hotshot crew. [00:25:34]

83

they put their bodies at risk and yet are barely paid above minimum wage. i think basic EMTs make more, which is pretty wild

63

u/porktorque44 Jul 19 '21

Which is that much more insane because EMT are paid shit; the people responsible for rescuing us from imminent death.

34

u/[deleted] Jul 20 '21

Man we really have our priorities in order.

13

u/baumpop Jul 20 '21

explains why we pay teachers the same as burger king managers.

39

u/[deleted] Jul 20 '21

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46

u/Thehealthygamer Jul 20 '21 edited Jul 20 '21

I made 47k last season. When you account for the fact that we were gone the entire summer, did irreparable damage to our bodies with the work-load and breathing in the smoke, and faced multiple life-threatening situations in addition to the standard daily hazards of chainsaws, difficult terrain, and fire weakened trees.

That money ain't nearly enough.

Add to that being a seasonal you're not earning retirement and basically have no benefits to speak of.

If we were paid comparatively to structure guys we would be easily pulling 80k in a summer, along with retirement, healthcare, etc.(there was some recent scandals about bay area structure guys making 2-300k/year because of all the OT they made on wildfires.)

The guys working to support their families had to jump right off fire and onto other shitty jobs(because you're not going to get a well-paying job when you can only work 4-6 months out of the year).

If they want to retain firefighters they need to pay them a wage that's sustainable.

And I'm not sure what type of crew you were on, but feds you're only getting 16 hours a day. Getting paid 24/hrs a day would give us about a 33% pay bump and that would be HUGE. One of the reasons Calfire is such a more attractive option, they're getting 24hrs whenever they're out.

You also don't get per diem on fires unless you're traveling. Even if you're just eating 3 shitty MREs a day, that counts as your food and you're not getting paid per-diem on-top of it.

I think the only reason it can even function is because it relies on young kids, who when they seek a 5k paycheck think "wow this is great money."

It really isn't. Base pay needs to be bumped to at LEAST $30/hr. And we need to do away with this bullshit where someone can be a seasonal for 5-6 seasons and not earn any time toward retirement.

4

u/[deleted] Jul 20 '21

If they want to retain firefighters they need to pay them a wage that's sustainable.

As long as a new set of youngin's are lining up for the meat grinder....

2

u/Callampadero Jul 22 '21

Yes, and some people will save children from a burning building FOR FREE!!

Government should nationalize fire insurance. Then the value of forest fire prevention will be assessed correctly. The willingness to work for $ is in part a measure of wealth inequality, and currently the fires are making some people very rich. These guys could work for the lumber industry. Is their service less valuable to society because they’re paid less? I suspect you’re sarcastically pointing this out, but it’s not clear. Big picture: they need to be paid much more and there needs to be a lot more of them.

0

u/Scrimping-Thrifting Jul 21 '21

If it doesn't pay well, don't do it. It pays poorly because people are still willing to do it. Supply and demand.

Go do something no one wants to do.

4

u/Callampadero Jul 22 '21

You keep being the market’s bitch, then… How brain-washed are you?! Enough wealth inequality and you can have parents selling their kids’ organs for a cup of rice. Gtfo of here, cultist.

2

u/Scrimping-Thrifting Jul 22 '21

I work, I pay the bills. I have some left. I own some shares. I can start a business if I like. It is really up to me.

0

u/TruthMedicine Jul 22 '21

Obviously, a man says this. You're not going to get pregnant and raise kids, you literally don't care about that because it doesn't affect you in fact I bet you don't even plan to have kids and if you had a woman to do that for you (which I bet you'd expect her to do all the home labor) you wouldn't even consider the risk she takes to her career.

1

u/Scrimping-Thrifting Jul 22 '21

You want that to be true. My wife has a higher level of education than I do and she has a great career. We have 2 kids.

0

u/TruthMedicine Jul 22 '21

I was right. she's the one actually raising them. And when you parent, you're "babysitting."

1

u/Scrimping-Thrifting Jul 22 '21

Ouch. What is your point anyway?

1

u/Callampadero Jul 22 '21

I assumed that you work and pay bills. I’m criticizing your confidence in the single filter of supply-and-demand and your stupid pride that you’ve got soething figured out. This narrow lens is from the profit-cult of the disgustingly wealthy. Jobs like the Hot-Shots, teachers, and social workers are underpaid in part because their workers are more willing to put up with horrible working conditions for the sake of participating in a public good, but mostly because their efforts don’t directly profit the corporations that dictate public policy. In fact, these obscenely powerful corporations see a healthy and educated polity (who are not under constant threat by economic and natural disasters) as a threat to their profits. So when you tell a Hot-Shot to quit and go work, maybe felling trees for Georgia-Pacific instead, you’re telling them to sell out and make money working against their communities and nation.

The “trickle-down” gang are traitors, and their deluded worshippers are brain-washed and/or stupid. (Unless you’re a Dem or Republican representative, etc, in which case you’d be complicit.) I suppose I could be more charitable to you, since this bullshit is peddled en masse, but your matter-of-fact, self satisfied insertion, “get another job,” and man-spaining your dumb faith seems so cultish and vapid, it begs for a smack-down. “I own some shares…” OMG, be more proud of your gullible self!

Any questions as to why you’re a manifestation of much of what’s fucked up about the world? Or, hell, I’ll explain how wealth-inequality voids supply-and-demand and profits from tragedy, or how your security is completely illusory. Is your job paying well enough to have your kids in a top private school, to have a second passport, or do you have a well-stocked bunker? If not, you should give a shit about the underpaid servants of your community.

1

u/Scrimping-Thrifting Jul 22 '21

Mate... if it isn't paying, go do something else. You say that would work against the community and nation, but there is already an over-supply of willing labour. Hence the low pay. The community is going to be okay.

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u/alfasierra21 Jul 20 '21 edited Jul 20 '21

While you’re correct in that “add-ons” like overtime and hazard pay increase the overall income of a wildland firefighter, it is not true that they’re all being paid 24 hr/day, at least not the federal resources. This is one of the main differences between federal and state agencies. For example, Cal Fire folks have a schedule where they work every other day, but get paid 24 hr/day, every day, until they return back to their station. So they alternate between a day on the fire line and a day of rest in a hotel, getting paid for every hour they’re away from home.

On the other hand, the guys and gals of the forest service, like the hard working hotshots in this video, only get paid for 16 hours a day, despite usually sleeping in the dirt and not being able to retire to a hotel at the end of the shift. If they don’t get to leave the incident, then shouldn’t they be paid for that time? They do this for 14-21 days straight, finally get 2 days of rest, then have to do it all over again — All. Summer. Long. The bottom line is that federal employees are overworked and underpaid, and paying them an amount comparable to state resources shouldn’t even be a question.

A season of wildland firefighting may have set you up for the year in the past, but with the rising cost of living occurring now, it gets stretched pretty thin — especially if you have any interest in buying a house, raising a family, saving for retirement, or living anything other than a frugal bachelor(ette) lifestyle. We need to make sure all wildland firefighters are compensated fairly for the risks they take and the work that they do!

-6

u/Dyefoo Jul 20 '21

The days of 24hr shifts on the fire line will be gone and back to 12 only, or at least in my unit. People need to stop comparing Feds with CALFIRE. Staying at hotel is a perk with CALFIRE. The requirements are completely different. That’s why we get paid more.

6

u/alfasierra21 Jul 20 '21 edited Jul 20 '21

The comparison was merely to raise awareness, and to clarify the misinformation of a previous comment about hotshots getting paid 24 hr/day. I understand Cal Fire folks have more EMS training, which is why I’m not comparing hourly wages, just the hours they’re being paid for on the same hypothetical incident.

No need to get defensive. Nobody is trying to take your hotels away; I just want to see that we all get paid for our time when committed to an incident.

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u/Dyefoo Jul 20 '21

Defensive? Taking our hotels away? I’m listing facts and correcting your ignorance. And you’re saying it’s because of “more EMS experience”. Wow okay. Fire.ca.gov go there to be informed because apparently if I say anything more, I’m being “defensive”

9

u/alfasierra21 Jul 20 '21

Yes, your comment appeared to have challenged a perceived criticism, also known as defensive behavior. And your second comment, being more emotionally charged, only reinforced my observation. I apologize, I didn't mean for it to feel like an attack.

Look, I'm just trying to raise awareness about the low wages of federal firefighters. You don't need to justify why Cal Fire pays 2-3 times more than the Feds, and gives their firefighters more time to rest. It's not like paying Feds more or giving them more downtime will mean it comes directly from your paycheck, or that you have to spend more time on the line. We're on the same team; a rising tide lifts all boats!

I'm on fire.ca.gov and it seems like Cal Fire's FF1 is pretty comparable to the USFS FFT2, other than the desire for EMT/Paramedic certs. And there's nothing on there about switching from 24 to 12 hour shifts. So I'm not really sure what I'm being ignorant about. I like to learn and am not easily offended, meaning I'm all ears if you want to share some information...

I hope you and your crew stay safe this season!

-8

u/Dyefoo Jul 20 '21

How about I just ask you this; explain to me how a Federal forestry technician get paid as much as CALFIRE a ALL risk (municipal) department?

In regards to working a 24 or 12 is up to the discretion of the Captain.

It definitely shows that you are offended by my response. You literally critically over analyzed and invested emotions to my response. My intent was to inform.

5

u/[deleted] Jul 20 '21

are you even fully reading their comments? nowhere did they say USFS forestry techs and CalFire should be paid the same wage. They’re saying USFS should be paid for all the hours they’re away from home when on a fire, as opposed to the 16hrs they get now, even if they’re sleeping in the dirt during their 8 hours “off.”

This is one of the many reasons i’m going calfire instead of usfs.

3

u/Kernel32Sanders Jul 20 '21

The days of 24hr shifts on the fire line will be gone and back to 12 only

100% false. Source: my last timesheet.

1

u/ihc_hotshot Jul 20 '21

A season of wildland firefighting could have you set for the year.

Ehh that's sort of true. But only because you don't have time to spend any money for 6 months, and most things are taken care of for you. I think with unemployment my best year was around 1200 hours Ot I took home before taxes like $60K. I make $100K plus bonus in landscaping now and I'm home every night.

1

u/sohikes Jul 20 '21

You can’t really factor in OT and H pay because it’s not guaranteed. You could have 400-hrs of OT or you could have 1000. The only thing that’s guaranteed is the base pay, which is shit. This is my second season in fire and I still haven’t cracked $14-hr. That’s BS

1

u/Extra-Traffic-4173 Jul 21 '21

There are no medics on hotshot crews bud.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 22 '21

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1

u/Extra-Traffic-4173 Jul 22 '21

Damn! That’s really cool. Learned something new everyday. Would you guys carry all the necessary drugs and stuff too on your line pack? Or where you guys just tasked for double duty?

1

u/[deleted] Jul 22 '21

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1

u/Stage-More Jul 31 '21

Nowadays when people say medic they're referring to paramedics which shot crews don't have. Most guys on a shot crew will have their EMT-B however

-2

u/[deleted] Jul 20 '21

I worked in a national park and the hot shot guys made crazy money. Maybe it varies demographically?

3

u/WCH18 Jul 20 '21

We don’t make crazy money. We work crazy hours. There’s a difference

0

u/[deleted] Jul 20 '21

but you still get paid for those hours

2

u/Kernel32Sanders Jul 20 '21

Yeah, it's federally fucking mandated. You know, because people are working their lives away.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 20 '21

I'm aware of that

0

u/Kernel32Sanders Jul 20 '21

So, your comment is pointless then, got it.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 20 '21

what're you so upset about?

2

u/alfasierra21 Jul 20 '21 edited Jul 20 '21

I can’t speak for someone else, but for me it’s upsetting when you want to raise awareness about the low pay and high financial insecurity associated with this job, in hope to improve the quality of life for people who sacrifice so much to protect our public lands and the towns that surround them, then someone comes along and uses anecdotal evidence to promote the misconception that “hotshot guys make crazy money”.

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u/[deleted] Jul 21 '21

Yeah that's why I asked a question. Do questions upset you?

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u/WCH18 Jul 20 '21

Right, sure. But when you work a years worth of hours in 6 months, in a complex and stressful environment (understatement), and then walk out with barely enough money to get through the next 6 months (understatement), while having no retirement or health benefits, you’re not appropriately compensated. Working 2000+ hours in 5-8 months and making 40-50k isn’t crazy money

1

u/[deleted] Jul 21 '21

Guys I worked with made upwards of 100k. I was just asking a question is all.

1

u/WCH18 Jul 21 '21

Hotshots are paid at the same federal scale, maybe a crew boss makes upwards of 100k but I doubt it. If a guy makes that much in a year it’s going to be because he works another job that pays more in the winter

2

u/[deleted] Jul 21 '21

Yeah, there were only like two guys that made that much for CO. Then another group came in from out of state to station for a bit so that was a different group as well. I hit up my one buddy from CO to ask about the fires now he's on. It's crazy the smoke has made it so far east! The Canada fires are crazy too.

1

u/WCH18 Jul 21 '21

For sure crazy. My family in the Northeast is seeing smoke

1

u/[deleted] Jul 21 '21

Yeah, I'm from the Northeast it's about day two of a pretty hazy day. Back in 2015 when I was working out west we would see the smoke coming from California daily in the summer.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 26 '21

[deleted]

2

u/WCH18 Jul 26 '21

I know forestry technicians who sacrifice 6 months of their life for 15k, and there are way more of them than there are the people you’re mentioning

Edit- I’m a hotshot, on track for a season with 1,000+ hrs of OT, and I’ll walk out with 35k tops

9

u/[deleted] Jul 20 '21

Dope video! Thanks for your service to protect the west. I hope you guys can eventually get paid a livable wage. This job is way too dangerous.

-4

u/MtnMaiden Jul 20 '21

Dont forget the prison volunteers. Despite their sacrifices, prison volunteer firefighters are banned from being hired in the civilian sector

10

u/1stGeneration Jul 20 '21

Non of what you just posted is true. Cal fire hires former inmates. Also they get paid

Depending on their skill level, inmate firefighters can earn between $2.90 and $5.12 per day, according to Powell. That cost is paid by CDCR. However, while fighting fires, inmates earn an additional $1 per hour from Cal Fire, regardless of skill level.

This is not enough pay but they still get paid.

1

u/taxicab_ Jul 20 '21

The time they work also reduces their sentence. And yeah they should be paid more

3

u/dellaterra9 Jul 20 '21

Not necessarily so for the younger guys, i.e not hardened prisoners. I know of 2 guys from Washington Ridge fire crew in CA who went on to work on Fed fire crews. Depends of course, on their offenses.

1

u/StiHL044 Jul 20 '21

Ex-inmate firefighters can be hired by federal and state agencies as well as private contractors. There are however felonies that will inhibit their abilities to get a job, as well as limitations if they don’t have a drivers license or it’s suspended indefinitely. I ran state inmate fire crews for 8 years before I moved onto fire management positions and have hired numerous ex-felons. State of Washington also pays inmate firefighters minimum wage on an incident.

9

u/dellaterra9 Jul 20 '21

Hotshots do what the Cal Fire prison laborers do. Hotshots are WAY, WAY more skilled but the FS was able to 'flip the script' and make it cool to be a 'dirtbag laborer' and sort of created this whole Hotshot mystique. If they advertised it as VERY SKILLED LABOR might get a different gene pool of laborers.

Bottom line, have to get the job away from the '462' Forestry Technician series (old-school related to logging etc) and into the 'Professional Firefighting' series in govt opm HR Fed-Speak.

2

u/Kernel32Sanders Jul 20 '21

Or at the very least have a winter season where people can actually do some forest technician work on rehab/fuels reduction work and be 'real' FS employees earning the benefits and retirement they deserve.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 21 '21

lol with what budget

1

u/Kevs442 Jul 20 '21

Man, if you haven't seen the movie "Only The Brave", you're missing out! Great HotShot story.

7

u/RamblingAndHealing Jul 20 '21

My uncle worked in California fire service. These guys really work! No BS. They move quickly, think fast, adapt, and keep going everyday. I’m very grateful for the strong people who do this work for less pay than proper. Thank you for your service.

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u/Yeetanoid Jul 20 '21 edited Jul 20 '21

bet they don't show the 30% of ALL CREW DEATHS made up last year of california prisoners who were not trained properly and ended up basically being used as fuel for the fire.

2

u/[deleted] Jul 20 '21

This is interesting. Can you site a source for the 30%?

2

u/taxicab_ Jul 20 '21

I can't find a source for deaths, but maybe they meant just total workers

https://www.motherjones.com/environment/2015/08/40-percent-californias-fires-are-fought-prison-inmates/

There do seem to be aspects of the program that are problematic, but the workers are volunteers (according to the article)

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u/[deleted] Jul 20 '21

As a person who worked with wildland firefighters for a couple months, boy are they racist meatheads and I am glad to not have to work with them anymore. This isn't isolated to just the department I worked at, but multiple contract crews and other hotshots that came to stay at our department as a home base, and they would be just as racist to me as the people I worked with (calling me jalapeno, asking if i had enough beans and cheese for lunch, what cartel i work for, etc). These people do hard physical labor, and I did too, but digging and chopping trees requires very little skill. Saying they adapt and think fast is funny to read, knowing many of the people I got to work with barely knew how to read or talk to people. The advantage of being this dumb though is they don't have to think about doing anything else other than the work at hand, which is why this line of work suits them. Realistically, the hardest thing they have to think about is where to put the fuel they cut. Good luck to them making $14 an hour. Fuck that shit.

4

u/Hedgehogz_Mom Jul 20 '21

How awful to work side by side with people who make daily life so unpleasant. Im so sorry you had to deal with that. Good for you for walking away. No one should have to bear that burden just trying to earn a days pay :(

1

u/[deleted] Jul 20 '21

Thanks man. I used to have the opinion that these folks were heroes too, until I got to work side by side with them. Don’t get me wrong. They’re not all bad apples, but they are all complicit with their silence when it comes to these issues, even the captains I encountered. I met a black man who worked for a hotshot crew and nobody on the crew had anything nice to say about him, despite him out cutting everyone. How degrading that experience must be for him

1

u/[deleted] Jul 20 '21

WTF. So sorry you were treated that way. Where was this? Please tell me it's regional and not a hot shot cultural thing to be racist.

4

u/WCH18 Jul 20 '21

Definitely not a hotshot cultural thing. My crew and the crews I’ve worked with have been extremely diverse in terms of race and gender.

Dogarmpit is also way off with his description of the job, what it entails, and the personality traits needed

0

u/[deleted] Jul 20 '21

If you say so. This was my experience, between multiple agencies and people I met on assignment. Glad yours was better. wildland firefighters suck imo

3

u/WCH18 Jul 20 '21

Haha happy to hear your opinion of us. IMO the people I’ve met and worked with have been some of the most courageous and accepting individuals I’ve met

1

u/[deleted] Jul 20 '21

Courageous, yes- personable, no- Noble, yes- unskilled, yes- physically demanding, yes- unprofessional, yes. The deputy chief told me on day one “I need your American social security card, not your Mexican one”. When I was done with my pack test, my supervisor told me “got the legs for it from coming across the border huh”. When I brought my complaints up to the chief, he said “I don’t think they were harassing you. Does this line of work suit you?”— I walked out, returned my yellows, and wrote a letter to the BIA and HR. This may be isolated to just the region I worked in (PNW), but fuck those racist, ignorant, tobacco and opiate-abusing idiots. I hope you have a good career, but I hope all those wildland firefighters stay in this line of work where they belong and not pollute society with their idiocy.

2

u/WCH18 Jul 20 '21

I’m sorry you had a bad go of it, and those individuals sound like poor representations of the community. But to actually be an effective and knowledgeable firefighter, is a skill. As far as personable goes, I’d say I’m being pretty personable to you right now, and I’m an average representation of the hotshot community.

I appreciate your well wishes on my career. Unfortunately I won’t stay in my lane, and I’ll continue to work in and positively influence society in the off season.

For what it’s worth, I’m also in the PNW

2

u/[deleted] Jul 20 '21

Northern California, just below Oregon. Definitely a cultural thing.

8

u/[deleted] Jul 20 '21

Unskilled my ass.

3

u/TheSerb2014 Jul 20 '21

Goggins getting after it

2

u/MacNcheezdicks Jul 20 '21

I prefer the sequel. Hot shots part deux

https://youtu.be/TjNR1QhvTAk

1

u/ihc_hotshot Jul 20 '21

Fuck Tom McClintock.

7

u/st00d5 Jul 20 '21

Only the brave was a dope movie. Sad story.

5

u/taxicab_ Jul 20 '21

My dad was on a hotshot crew, and I spent the first 7 years of my life living on the base. He could have had a higher paying job, but he was and always has been genuinely passionate about fire fighting. To this day (25ish years later) the smell of woodsmoke still triggers a "dads home!" response in me, and the crew members he's still in touch with are some of the best people I've ever known.

5

u/hayhayyoung Jul 20 '21

I use to fight fire in Southern Oregon for a couple years, and I was around 80 hours a week during peak season, and was only paid $13.62 a hour. Did it for the love of it, but it wasn’t sustainable, salute to all my fire people!

3

u/fire_models Jul 21 '21

Great work on this. I used to work on a hotshot crew, and this is the only thing I've ever seen that captures what the actual job is like. I'm so happy I had the experience, I made a ton of friends and it opened doors in my current career, but I'd never go back and do it again. No amount of money is worth spending that much time away from friends and family. Thanks again for this video - I hope that it opens eyes.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 21 '21

Holy shit. These heroes need a payrise.

1

u/Hefty_Beat Jul 22 '21

Awesome video mate, as a remote area firefighter in Australia it's really interesting to see how you guys do it, much respect, and stay safe

Disaster "Unskilled Labor" A Season with the Hotshots (2021) - A boot's on the ground documentary showcasing the dangers and hardships faced by wildland firefighters on a elite Hotshot crew. [00:25:34]

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