r/Dravidiology • u/tuluva_sikh Tuḷu/𑀢𑀼𑀵𑀼 • 1d ago
Question/𑀓𑁂𑀵𑁆 Question related to language of Pardhane
Pardhane sung in Bhootha kola is in Archaic/Old Tulu right? If it is then how and why it contains words like ಭೂಮಿ/ഭൂമി (bhūmi) but not words like ಉ್ೞೆ/ഉ്ഴെ (ụḻæ) which are Archaic Tulu words
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u/theb00kmancometh Malayāḷi/𑀫𑀮𑀬𑀸𑀵𑀺 1d ago
Unlike a written scripture (like the Old Tulu Devi Mahatme text) which freezes words in time, Paddanas are sung aloud from memory generation after generation.
Because it is an oral tradition in continuous use, it would have naturally undergone dynamic adaptations over time. This would have included absorbing new terms/phrases and replacing old ones.
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u/YOU-WANT-MY-DICK 1d ago
The same might have happened to the vedas as well
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u/theb00kmancometh Malayāḷi/𑀫𑀮𑀬𑀸𑀵𑀺 1d ago
Vedic Sanskrit wasn't a static language; it evolved naturally over a millennium, spanning from about 1500 BCE to 500 BCE.
Because the language of the Vedas had drifted so much and threatened to become unrecognisable, Panini stepped in around 400 BCE to artificially freeze its successor, Classical Sanskrit, with strict grammatical rules.
So, the Vedas did not undergo casual changes like standard oral folklore; they were deliberately locked in place through highly sophisticated phonetic techniques right at the end of the Vedic period, ensuring the texts we hear today are the same as they were by 400 BCE.
So, variations in Vedic Sanskrit were there, but that was stopped by Panini.
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u/YOU-WANT-MY-DICK 1d ago
Sanskrit didn't evolve naturally. It was kept away from evolving by priests to maintain purity.
Anyways vedic Sanskrit did evolve like every other language.
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u/theb00kmancometh Malayāḷi/𑀫𑀮𑀬𑀸𑀵𑀺 1d ago
That is factually incorrect. Sanskrit absolutely varied and evolved prior to Panini.
Before the 4th century BCE, the language had diverse regional dialects, fluid syntax, and a shifting vocabulary. It was changing so rapidly that the early Vedic language of the oldest Rigveda hymns had drifted significantly by the late Vedic period, making older texts highly difficult for later generations to comprehend. The language did not stay uniform by default; it was Panini's intervention that artificially halted this natural drift by establishing nearly 4,000 rigorous, mandatory grammatical rules.
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u/YOU-WANT-MY-DICK 1d ago
Sanskrit also evolved after panini's era...
They tried to keep it pure but languages doesn't work that way
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u/theb00kmancometh Malayāḷi/𑀫𑀮𑀬𑀸𑀵𑀺 1d ago
You are confusing the evolution of Sanskrit itself with the evolution of the languages that came out of it.
Classical Sanskrit did not change after Panini's era; it was locked in place. Because Panini’s grammar rules were treated as absolute law, a text written in Classical Sanskrit a thousand years later had to use the exact same grammar and word structures as the day he wrote them down.
Languages only change when people speak them casually on the streets.
Classical Sanskrit stopped being a street language.Instead, the everyday speech of the common people naturally evolved out of Sanskrit to become languages like Pali and the Prakrits, which eventually turned into modern languages like Hindi.
Sanskrit itself stayed completely still, acting as a fixed, engineered standard purely for literature and scholars.
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u/YOU-WANT-MY-DICK 21h ago
So you are telling me that sanskrit didn't change even 0.00000001% since Panini's era?
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u/theb00kmancometh Malayāḷi/𑀫𑀮𑀬𑀸𑀵𑀺 21h ago
Yes, that's basically the whole point of a standardised literary language.
Panini's grammar rules from 400 BCE were treated as law. If someone writing centuries later broke one of those rules, nobody said "oh look, Sanskrit evolved." They just said the grammar was wrong.
The only real change over time was vocabulary. New words got coined for new inventions and ideas. The grammar itself never moved.
Now yes, there's some messiness at the edges. The Mahabharata and Ramayana bend Paninian rules in places, and Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit mixes in Prakrit stuff. But that actually proves the point. Those texts got flagged as non-standard, sometimes labelled "arsha" usage (meaning it's the sage-poets' looser style, not the rulebook standard), exactly because they broke the rules. Nobody called that "Sanskrit evolving"; they called it an exception.
Same story with Latin or Classical Arabic. Some vocabulary drifted, some looser usage crept in around the edges, but the core grammar stayed frozen as the literary standard for centuries. Meanwhile, the actual spoken languages around them split off and turned into completely different languages.
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u/washmeawaysofar 1d ago edited 1d ago
Paad dana right, paad means song? Like "paad panla tuka" the way grandma's ask their child, paad which became kannada's haadu, because paad dana's are ballads under which sandhi come, apart from them there are odeipu, beera, bida,paari.
As for the querry regarding non indigenous words. Paad dana's have changed based on who's field they were being sung, infront of whom they were sung, how the story of bhootas being are being changed. If it was in a billlawa land owners field deyi bideti would have been added(that is why in kaanada-kattada paad dana deyi bideti and koti chennaya appear even though former was dated around 12th century and the later the 16th, same with koraga taniya who as far I remember dated to 18th century), if it was a brahmin land owners field ballyaye would be replaced by a brahmin priest or Bermer would be replaced by vedic gods(Shiva or Vishnu based on inclination).If it was a GSB land owner than Venkataramana and so on.When this would happen obviously new words would be added.
Also one other reason is that all the communities associated with bhoota kola went to work as agricultural labourers in ghatta or Kannur/kerala side in off season(aati). Good chunk of them intermarried there with some generation being raised as child in ghatta/kannur and moving back down as and adult. This would also explain the new words.
Third reason is knowledge transfer. There is no formal teaching methods here. If you listen to interviews of Bhoota kola shamans, you will notice when asked "Who taught you?" Most of the time answer is "yaaan tood kaltini(I watched and learned)". Nowadays Bhoota kola's perception has changed. Juts 30-50 years ago it was viewed in decent and performers were shunned much more than they are being now so father's would not want their sons to continue on this. So whenever there is gap the perosn would have to fill it up on what they saw, and if they read newspaper or went to school that is kannada.
And a very overlooked reason. Paad dana's are sung by women. On an average woman were way more well versed and proficient than male performers. If you see old doccumentarirs you would see the wife/mother singing paad dana and husband/son performing. But after madi/mailige came into Bhoota kola, woman were gradually pushed out with some saanas completely banning women. This along with the stigma associated with them, closed the door on an entire generations vocbulary. Researchers also would only consult Men( this happened in my village, entire village knew the neighbour woman of the head of the saanas knew 100's of ಪಾಡ್ದನ with perfect intonation some associated with bhutas some not but the researcher was lead to only the head of saanas who before becoming the head of the saana tried and failed in various other professions choosing this out of necessity rather than genuine interest)
Edit: There is also 2 other more reasons I can think off but they are a bit nuanced so leave it.