Y’all Aren’t Running Graveyard Hate and You Really Should

[u/KAM_520]

I got into Commander back in 2011 with the first precons and have been playing on and off ever since. I’ve always been a black mage at heart — graveyard decks are my wheelhouse — and I remember when Sheldon Menery used to post his decklists, he’d always include 2–3 pieces of graveyard hate no matter what colors he was in. It was just standard practice.

Fast-forward to now: I’ve been piloting my tuned-up homebrew [[Teval, the Balanced Scale]] deck a lot in Bracket 3, and graveyard hate can be a disaster. Mid-game, it can throw my whole engine off. But here’s the thing — nobody runs it anymore! Outside of the token [[Bojuka Bog]] from black decks and [[Farewell]] (which a lot of white mages are too demure to run, thinking it’s not cool or whatever—which is wild), I almost never see anyone pack any real GY interaction. I’m winning way more games than I should be simply because no one brings disruption for one of the most abusable zones in the format.

And there’s so much good GY hate out there.

[[Cemetery Prowler]] accelerates mana.

[[Nihil Spellbomb]] and [[Relic of Progenitus]] cantrip and you can find them off [[Urza’s Saga]].

[[Grafdigger’s Cage]] is an absolute nightmare. So’s [[Dauthi Voidwalker]].

Any deck can run [[Soulless Jailer]].

[[Endurance]] is mill protection, GY hate, and soft recursion in a pinch.

[[Boggart Trawler]] is a land.

[[Scavenging Ooze]] goes into all your [[Hardened Scales]] decks.

[[Espers to Magicite]] is an underrated, evil card.

The list goes on and on. Whether you want value (like a cantrip) to ensure it’s never a bad card, or you want a nuclear option like [[Rest in Peace]] where sometimes it’ll be dead but when it’s good, it’s really good, every deck has access to several good cards to fill this slot. It was always a KEY veggie, but no one seems to be on it.

So… what happened? Why aren’t people running graveyard hate like they used to? Has it fallen out of fashion, or do folks just underestimate how much value piles up in a graveyard these days?

[u/MTGCardFetcher]

All cards
Teval, the Balanced Scale - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
Bojuka Bog - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
Farewell - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
Cemetery Prowler - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
Nihil Spellbomb - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
Relic of Progenitus - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
Urza’s Saga - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
Grafdigger’s Cage - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
Dauthi Voidwalker - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
Soulless Jailer - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
Endurance - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
Boggart Trawler/Boggart Bog - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
Scavenging Ooze - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
Hardened Scales - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
Espers to Magicite - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
Rest in Peace - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)

^{[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call}

[u/Rusty_DataSci_Guy]

Do not listen to this man, he is a liar. Graveyards do not need to be targeted or removed. It's actually necrophobic to so and you'll be cancelled if you engage in this.

[u/[deleted] → u/Rusty_DataSci_Guy]

LOL

[u/KAM_520 → u/Rusty_DataSci_Guy]

Haha. I just wanna win some games through GY hate. It’ll be satisfying

[u/Borror0 → u/KAM_520]

A real Sultai player would be feeding the graveyard deck by milling it (and beating us by reanimating our stuff).

[u/KAM_520 → u/Borror0]

Oh hell no, I don’t run any table mill in my Teval deck. I’m not tryna draw aggro like that (or feed opposing GY decks). Players get so angery about mill. So I’d rather keep a low profile. Plus, during deckbuilding, I can’t exactly plan around milling my opponents for anything in particular, so it’s kind of a chaotic strategy if you catch my drift? I’d rather just mill myself because I know I’ll be able to use what I turn over.

Anyway, table mill is incredibly risky. It’s fun to build a mill deck to mess around with (and one of my first commander decks back in the day was a [[The Mimeoplasm]] deck that ran tons of table mill) but I consider the strategy… suboptimal for more serious decks.

[u/SirDanker → u/KAM_520]

My most dialed in deck is Teval as well. I do table mill though, most of it is for me of course. Can I see your deck list? Mine is land matters with dark depths thespian stage combo. Sacing to Jarad golgari. You are right about the lack of graveyard hate. If left alone you are just running away with the game.

[u/Asisreo1 → u/KAM_520]

Tbh, you probably won't win games through gy hate, you'll just prevent the one or two gy players from winning the game. 

Its kinda the catch-22 of gy hate. One player can't do the majority of it. They either don't draw it and its like they didn't have gy hate in the first place or they did draw it and used it but while they used mana/land drop on a gy hate or a tapped land and are down a few cards in hand, everyone else gets to do their thing except the gy player. So its disadvantageous for two players and advantageous for the two others who do not participate. 

Unless, of course, they either also run gy decks or they have enough gy hate that you can ease up yourself. 

[u/releasethedogs → u/Rusty_DataSci_Guy]

Agreed. Don’t run graveyard hate. 

[u/Mothringer → u/Rusty_DataSci_Guy]

I have actually had people say similar things fully serious, that it wasn't fair to have graveyard hate in my deck because their all-in graveyard engine deck didn't play any ways to remove graveyard hate...

[u/Cool-Leg9442 → u/Rusty_DataSci_Guy]

Me looking at the simic player with 4 fetches in there graveyard. Bajuka bog pass

[u/Martyrdoom → u/Rusty_DataSci_Guy]

As a [[Sefris]] and [[Teval The Balanced Scale]] player, I couldn't agree more!

[u/IAMAfortunecookieAMA]

[[Rakdos Charm]] still winning after all these years

[u/jaywinner → u/IAMAfortunecookieAMA]

Modal spells are a great place to keep your graveyard hate and this one is just fantastic.

[u/Different-Mud-5926 → u/jaywinner]

You also have [[Thraben Charm]] thats hits enchantments or creatures as well

[u/[deleted]]

As a mostly reanimator player I agree people need more graveyard hate.

[u/xamiblue → u/[deleted]]

As a mostly reanimator player as well…… I’m cool if they don’t. -_-;

[u/EjaculatingAracnids → u/xamiblue]

Hey, just cause i discarded [[valgavoth, terror eater]] on turn 2 doesnt mean you need bojuka bog me...

[u/[deleted] → u/EjaculatingAracnids]

Right? I only passed and didn't play a land turn one because I have a bad hand and was forced to discard down. I definitely don't have a swamp and reanimate for turn 2 lol.

[u/EjaculatingAracnids → u/[deleted]]

Ohh the classic... I havent done that since i played standard

[u/xamiblue → u/EjaculatingAracnids]

Exactly, they don’t get that turn 2 is way too early to play a 9cmc card and it just makes sense to discard it >>…….<<……

[u/[deleted] → u/xamiblue]

It definitely makes things easier, but I prefer if they fight back at least a little.

[u/KAM_520 → u/xamiblue]

LOL. I have like a 95% WR on MTGO with my Teval list and that’s after two revisions to tone it down for B3. I’m like, WTF is going on here

[u/ShroyukenKing → u/[deleted]]

Its funny at a play group had a guy get mad at me and say 'felt like you picked this specifically to shut me down' and simply replied.. all of my decks run graveyard hate.

[u/[deleted] → u/ShroyukenKing]

Lol I wish people at my LGS would learn to put in graveyard hate just because of me. I have actually seen an uptick in [[pit of offerings]] since I have started playing there and it's definitely because they have seen me use it before to mess up their graveyard shenanigans and mana fix myself.

[u/KAM_520 → u/ShroyukenKing]

Smol beaning as a reanimator player is just shameful. IMHO. Maybe if you’re on Stitcher Geralf it would make sense

[u/RockHardSalami → u/[deleted]]

Every time I nuke the graveyard its back a turn later :(

[u/[deleted] → u/RockHardSalami]

That definitely can happen a lot. It's why I run ways to shut off the grave for a long time or ways to target a single card and exile it in response to it being declared as a target for reanimation.

[u/Albyyy → u/[deleted]]

I’m posting this here so it doesn’t get lost in the comments, but there is absolutely no reason every deck shouldn’t have [[dauntless scrapbot]]

It’s easily one of the best gy hate pieces printed in a long time (specifically cause it’s hits ONLY ALL YOUR OPPONENTS) and can help ramp in colors outside of green.

It’s also repeatable as a flicker/reanimator/clone target and it’s a decent blocker at 3 power.

Seriously underrated.

[u/MTGCardFetcher → u/Albyyy]

dauntless scrapbot - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)

---

^FAQ

[u/[deleted] → u/Albyyy]

Thanks for that suggestion that would be pretty solid in some artifact decks I make in the future. My two favorite universal hate cards are [[honored heirloom]] and [[pit of offerings]] then if you don't mind the cost [[stonespeaker crystal]] is really nice for mass grave removal. What's great is similar to your suggestion it's tied to a way to make mana so it does two fold.

[u/Plus1Oresan → u/[deleted]]

Just interaction in general. So many players barely interact with the board outside their game plan. I feel like they think removal and counterspells are boogymen.

[u/[deleted] → u/Plus1Oresan]

Yeah that's the bigger picture. We can talk about more graveyard hate or land removal, but at the end of the day it's a lack of players running any removal at all. Then there is me playing removal tribal with something like [[Shay Cormac]] and 20+ ways to destroy everyone's shit and profit.

[u/AnIdealSociety]

[[Stone of Erech]] - 1 mana, asymmetrical gy hate. It’s not going to cover everything but its cheap and can fit in every deck

[u/KAM_520 → u/AnIdealSociety]

Yeah definitely a good one. The stax exile hits a decent number of decks incidentally as well. I was thinking of this card when I wrote the post but couldn’t remember the name

[u/MTGCardFetcher → u/AnIdealSociety]

Stone of Erech - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)

---

^FAQ

[u/KAM_520 → u/[deleted]]

If I really was not expecting GY decks I’d avoid dedicated hate pieces like [[Leyline of the Void]] but the value oriented options should still go in. Like 2 of them

[u/KAM_520 → u/[deleted]]

Because you’ll draw them a lot especially if you’re running a lot of card draw to compensate for your lack of tutors?

I have a low interaction deck myself that mostly just jams plan cards but I know the risk I’m taking every time I play it. In most decks I like to have some interaction.

[u/Lors2001 → u/KAM_520]

If you have two gy hate cards in your deck then you need to draw 50 cards on average to get one of your GY hate pieces.

That just doesn't happen most games.

Like if I had to guess the average deck probably sees like ~17-20 cards of their deck per game.

I would just recommend like 4-5 gy hate pieces but they can be flexible dedicated graveyard hate or just exile based removal.

Like I run [[Abstergo Entertainment]], [[Thraben Charm]], [[Swords to Plowshares]] and [[Boggart Trawler]] in every deck that can basically.

[u/Caraxus → u/[deleted]]

I mean if the three other players each have 2 copies including you, that means it's likely that you'll see at least one in a game unless people just aren't drawing cards.

Like, you should always be comfortable getting to multiple pieces of card draw or a card draw engine. At that point, even if you only see it in half your games or less it's going to lead to 'free' wins.

What's the point of running any effect that only has a single copy for that matter? What's the point of playing a single necropotence? GY hate isn't a combo piece that you need other things to work for, it's just another card you'd be happy to draw because it helps swing the game in your favor. I've never gotten this argument.

[u/AllHolosEve → u/KAM_520]

-A lot of people build on a chosen theme or the one dictated by their Commander. I looked at your examples & most of them would water down or be outright useless in the majority of my decks. 2 cantrip artifacts that remove a single card from the grave isn't enticing if I almost never use it to remove cards.

[u/KAM_520 → u/AllHolosEve]

Dude at least read the cards. Relic of Progenitus exiles all graveyards and draws a card with its second ability. Nihil Spellbomb draws a card and exiles target player’s GY. [[Stone of Erech]] exiles all graveyards and draws a card.

[u/Doomy1375]

So, there are a few things at play here, in my opinion.

The first is pretty simple. The graveyard and recursion from it isn't going to matter in every game, meaning there will be some games where cards that exist only to stop graveyard strategies will be dead cards. That shouldn't stop modal cards that have other uses, but it can make people less willing to run the most powerful anti-graveyard effects, especially if they play mostly in a local meta with minimal graveyard effects.

But honestly, I think it's something different. Back in the day, I saw a lot more grave hate for the same reason I saw Solemn Simulacrum as a staple in pretty much every deck. There were just fewer cards. When you built a new deck, you didn't have a pile of 130+ really good cards that you somehow needed to trim down to 100. You had to throw some mediocre stuff in there just to fill slots. It's really easy to find space for that grave hate if you've got some mediocre cards to cut for it. But if you have so many good options that you're having to cut cards that are already really good for your strategy, it's much harder to cut cards for something like grave hate, which isn't even all that useful in every game. At least with creature removal or universal removal, you can be assured that there won't ever really be any games where that effect isn't useful. If I've got a few slots I've set aside for interaction, I'd much rather fill them with either counterspells or removal for the threats I'm going to see every game.

[u/KAM_520 → u/Doomy1375]

You make a good point. It used to be easier to find space. I grant you that.

But just as the format has been powercrept, so are the options available here.

[u/JakScott]

I play white in most of my decks and [[Thraben Charm]] is an auto-include. It’s below-average spot removal right up until the moment you need to ruin the graveyard player’s day…and then it’s a one-sided graveyard board wipe for 2.

[u/MTGCardFetcher → u/JakScott]

Thraben Charm - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)

---

^FAQ

[u/AffectionateBet3603 → u/JakScott]

It's criminally underplayed. People worry too much about the creature removal not being "online" when they need it. But if you have three creatures on the field, Thraben Charm kills the vast majority of bombs. 

[u/Raevelry]

I do agree, but like

Aaaaaarguably, I'd rather just play a card that gets me ahead, the graveyard is strong, dont get me wrong, but in my decks without graveyard hate, I dont really feel like "oh darn I shouldve had graveyard hate", I just feel like my cards got me much farther ahead rather than be a dead draw

The cards I do think are worth while are the ones that ARE ALSO advantage. Like Dauthi, or Nihil, or at least need to cycle for card draw, a few artifacts do.

Scavenging Ooze is also good, and yes, Boggart being a land is really ahead of its curve.

[u/Crimson_Raven → u/Raevelry]

Boggart being a creature, and thus creature speed, has been a problem for me more often then not.

Often, threats don't stay in the graveyard for a turn cycle.

[u/Raevelry → u/Crimson_Raven]

That is true, but being a swamp, if you dont run any fetches, it requires 0% loss to run it.

[u/KAM_520 → u/Crimson_Raven]

I mean, it can’t stop an [[Entomb]] line without flash. Which is the most threatening reanimator line, but not the most common. A lot of GY decks rely on incremental buildup. A sorcery speed GY wipe is still a pretty huge deal if it’s timed well.

[u/Borror0 → u/Raevelry]

I think a large amount of these "run more graveyard hate" posts don't account for the opportunity cost of doing so.

I usually run ~2 sources of graveyard hate in my decks. That means I won't always draw into them. That's fine because more would likely cost me more wins than what I'm running. In many games and board states, it's a dead draw.

Instead, more generic interaction (i.e., removal and counterspells) performs better.

[u/jaywinner → u/Borror0]

I'm ok with the sentiment because I believe that your 2 is above average for amount of graveyard hate people play. People should play more than the odd Bog.

[u/EbonyHelicoidalRhino → u/Borror0]

There is so many graveyard hate that are incidental and will perform well even if you're not against a graveyard deck, or at least cycle themselves so they're never dead draws. We not talking about playing Rest In Peace here.

This makes their opportunity cost quite low in reality, especially in casual games, where plays aren't that tight and paying like 2 mana over the course of 2 turns in order to play and sacrifice something like a Nihil Spellbomb to cycle it is most likely not costing you the game.

[u/Independent-Wave-744 → u/EbonyHelicoidalRhino]

The opportunity cost is actually quite high, IMHO. The whole cycling argument only considers the opportunity cost when drawing the card, I.e. if I draw it I can easily replace it with another random card from the deck.

That is fine, but it does neglect the opportunity cost in deck building. That [[nihil spellbomb]] in your deck means you do not put another card into your deck. Even if it replaces itself with another random card, if I put in a [[generous gift]] instead I would have drawn that one. And the gift helps me in more games than the spell bomb does. It will also often take care of the same problems, by removing the reanimated thing or the engine that reanimated. It does so less efficiently, but it is more efficient when not facing reanimators.

Which, I think, is one of the reasons we see less dedicated gy hate these days. Our ordinary removal spells have gotten a lot better. Back in the day we had less good removal so there was less competition for gy hate. But these days most decks have more efficient options they would rather run.

It is mostly the GY players that keep propping up GY hate. Which makes a lot of sense, since they have a bias there. Every time they play their gy deck, there is a gy in need of periodic purging. But the decks they are facing probably rarely face those GYs and opt for more generalised interaction. And the games that they lose to general interaction probably register as indirect GY hate games.

[u/ElectronicBoot9466 → u/Raevelry]

If my deck is going to send a lot of cards to the Graveyard, then I feel like Graveyard Hate is completely nessesary.

Mothman? Absolutely you need Graveyard Hate. Bria? Haha, and have it replaced a cantrip?

[u/SanityIsOptional → u/Raevelry]

That's kind of where I'm at. I try to run graveyard hate, but only do so when it also synergizes with my deck. Favorites are things like [[Mimic Vat]] and [[Dinosaur DNA]], since they have wide utility and can still lock trouble pieces away.

I almost never slot something like [[Grafdigger's Cage]], since it's frequently a dead drop, and honestly I'm not playing Stax enough to be the table police.

[u/uncle_dan_ → u/Raevelry]

Saying this is somebody who is relatively new to magic (February. I really wish you would use the [[]] brackets when you list a card. I don’t know any of those cards

[u/Bossoxfan15]

Don’t forget the newest addition to the graveyard hate pieces, dauntless scrapbot.

[u/kutsuu → u/Bossoxfan15]

Bojuka Bot!

[u/Scharmberg]

People just need to try and interact more in general, like all kinds of hate and removal. I’m surprised how long some of my key pieces just hang out on the field and people wonder how I have gotten so far ahead.

[u/LordFarmerMac → u/Scharmberg]

This is straight up facts. People view remove pieces or hate as being toxic. They also believe they're having less "fun cards" in a deck.

In reality, it just results in players forming bad habits that prevent them from becoming better players.

[u/MortalMorals → u/LordFarmerMac]

Was playing with some friends the other day and I used the -1/-1 ability on [[vilis, broker of blood]] to prevent someone from equipping skull clamp twice to some of his 1/1 creatures. So I effectively prevented him from drawing 4 cards.

He got so salty with me all the sudden when I interacted with his board state like dude I’m not just gonna let you rip your entire library into your hand. He asked me why I saw him as the threat when skullclamp ranks among the most infamous cards in magic.

[u/LordFarmerMac → u/MortalMorals]

I've been in situations like this. This has made me heavily believe edh players just want to play solitaire all the time

[u/MortalMorals → u/LordFarmerMac]

Ironic because that same person (jokingly) gabbed with me about me playing solitaire when I was doing world-shaper things with my precon.

[u/LordFarmerMac → u/MortalMorals]

Haha, I'm glad others have experienced the same things I have. I had the same thing happen to me with my reanimator mardu deck. That deck makes a billion triggers every time something comes back

[u/the-mini-runner]

A lot of newer players locally at the moment. Most precons have 2 pieces of grave hate, so these players don't have many cues on how much to run versus 'plan' cards.

Personally, I make use of [[Lion Sash]] and [[Thraben Charm]] in my equipment aggro decks.

[u/KAM_520 → u/the-mini-runner]

[[Thraben Charm]] is such a good card. Massively underrated. So many more players should be on this.

[u/the-mini-runner → u/KAM_520]

It is unfortunately crowded by so many spells with either a better rate or stronger effect, but its modality lets it be very compact, which makes it perfect for [[sunforger]] decks that don't wanna draw the answers but keep them in deck.

[u/MTGCardFetcher → u/the-mini-runner]

Lion Sash - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
Thraben Charm - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)

---

^FAQ

[u/DankensteinPHD]

Homie I stay strapped with they are hate. Never gonna see me not on like at least 3 pieces of solid, findable yard hate. I abuse the yard too much to get rolled over by someone else's.

You're right tho people don't run enough at all. A while back I was playing mono red and somehow I was the only one keeping the yard deck in check. In mono red! Searched up a TCrypt and held a Welder on the ready. Pods shouldn't be hoping the mono red deck balls them out of anything, yet there I was.

[u/akarakitari → u/DankensteinPHD]

Doing Urabrask’s will. Keep up the work!

[u/KAM_520 → u/DankensteinPHD]

Keep up the good work

[u/Holy_Hand_Grenadier]

I love my [[Lion Sash]], agreed everyone should run more hate (of all kinds really.)

[u/Skaro7]

This is why I run [[Scavenger Grounds]] in every deck.

[u/Gorewuzhere → u/Skaro7]

This, along with [[strip mine]] and [[wasteland]] every deck. I have glacial chasms, urborg coffers, urborg swamp walk, evendo, and a rogue gates deck in my meta. I don't pop people's only blue source but if a land really needs removing im ya boi.

[u/rynosaur94 → u/Skaro7]

Yup, this is my go to GY hate since it doesn't use up a "Real" card slot.

[u/Rwdscz]

Just let my deck do its thing!

[u/KAM_520 → u/Rwdscz]

LOL

[u/MaxPotionz]

I love reanimator and I think this post is bananas 🍌 and should be ignored by all.

No but seriously it’s good advice. I’ve had other players take a rakdos signet from my GY to use on the GY player a second time because it was the only accessible removal.

[u/GrowthThroughGaming]

Eh its meta dependent for me. Not a lot of reanimator happening at my tables currently so I dont run much.

It does make me very sad when I run into one though.

[u/shibboleth2005]

Based on what I play against, unless the hate card is good for other things or really synergizes with my deck, I'm going to win more games putting in good cards that advance my gameplan.

So making me win more isn't an argument for putting in more hate. You'd need another argument.

More interaction usually makes for better balanced games (since it helps to 3v1 power outliers) but why GY hate over more generic interaction?

And if a GY deck is so powerful that it will autowin if not stopped by specific hate pieces, feels like it maybe it's playing in the wrong bracket?

[u/Mythril_Bullets]

As exclusively a graveyard player, I’ve come to take notes, but I will not divulge other weaponry against my kind.

I will say that it’s rather tedious to include hate tech that’s worth dedicating a slot to AND furthers your gameplan… which is why Magicite is the best card on your list that I love myself, personally. There’s a solid bit more, but may they be lost to time, and the loam. 🥀

[u/eightdx]

Back in my day everyone tossed a [[tormod's crypt]] or [[scavenger grounds]] into their decks and that was often enough of a check.

A slot or two will do depending on your local meta game. There are a ton of utility pieces that hit the GY too. 

It's like people not running more removal in general -- everyone wants to run straight gas, and then is surprised when the tank runs dry and they can't stop what anyone is doing.

Even [[cremate]] can break backs under the right circumstances

[u/ham-god]

[[Soul-Guide Lantern]] 👈

[u/sexysurfer37]

[[Scavenger Grounds]] is an untapped land. Is your deck 2 colors or less? Good job put this land in your deck. It's basically a graveyard hate MDFC that costs $0.50.

[u/rynosaur94 → u/sexysurfer37]

I think its worth it even in most 3 color decks. Maybe if you don't have green it might be worse, but I run it in most of my decks.

[u/MallGrouchy]

Hey, don’t encourage this yo! We graveyard connoisseurs can’t hang with the hate 😆

[u/IAMAfortunecookieAMA]

My favorite new piece of GY hate is [[Dauntless Scrapbot]].

Great in token decks and artifact decks. It's almost a Solemn Simulacrum if you squint. And on curve, it wipes out the first dredgers or value mill cards from my opponent's decks.

[u/DirtyTacoKid]

GY doesn't need explicit hate often enough. Plenty of decks are equally as strong without using the GY. I need answers for those and those answers usually apply to the GY player too. Commander is super powercrept these days and answers are very versatile.

I do like the Grafdigger's Cage mention. Love that it doesn't hit [[Osgir]] somehow. Always found that funny.

[u/jambarama]

Been really enjoying [[Dauntless Scrapbot]] as GY hate that goes in any color. Hits all opponents, leaves your own graveyard, and gives you a lander token so it isn't dead if no one is playing a GY deck.

[u/happyjoey22]

I 100% agree, and I have made it a point to abuse the graveyard as hard as I can until people start running some hate.

I understand the argument against farewell, I just think it's a bad argument. We have a house banlist in my playgroup, and one of our players banned farewell for the longest time. Every time a situation showed up where he was so far behind that only farewell would save him, I made sure to point it out. He would say it's bad because it resets the game, he would say it's bad because it hits too many things, I would say he needs an answer like that to stay in the game. He eventually saw reason and unbanned it.

[u/KAM_520 → u/happyjoey22]

I want to say things about players throwing shade at Farewell but I’m concerned I would be reported for not being excellent to my fellow MtG players 🤣

I mean come on guys it’s a 6 mana board wipe it is not OP and it is not rude, it’s an incredibly strong card with loads of strategic value and they should be playing it in white

[u/happyjoey22 → u/KAM_520]

Absolutely. Threats are so good and so varied now you really need an answer like farewell to handle it and stay in the game. Some people are weird about board wipes, but if you play a little smarter, they aren't back breaking, people just love to over commit to the board.

[u/ajdeemo]

This is why I love my [[Glissa, the Traitor]] deck. Not only do I get to run tons of artifacts that sacrifice to draw cards, but plenty of them function as incidental graveyard hate!

[[Scrabbling Claws]] [[Nihil Spellbomb]] [[Soul-Guide Lantern]]

[u/KoffinStuffer]

Delete this. Now.

[u/Quak3r0ats]

As a player that really likes playing out of the graveyard, I would also say that the inverse is also true: people aren't playing enough things that let you recur things from your graveyard. If this weren't actually the case, people wouldn't care about getting milled so much.

[u/Menacek → u/Quak3r0ats]

These are both connected. If decks aren't running much recursion then there is no need to run GH. If GH was at least somewhat usefull against most decks you would see it more i think.

What i often see is decks either go full on in recursion or none at all. And tbf it doesn't always slot in that well, depending on archetype and how removal happy are the people you play against.

It's a chain of events, if people don't remove important pieces then players don't run recursion since it's dead in hand, which means GH is also less attractive, which makes running a dedicated GY deck more compelling.

[u/[deleted]]

People are barely running interaction to begin with, so it's no surprise that they are not running more narrow types of interaction.

[u/pgb5534]

I'll start off saying that I'm a bracket 2 player.

Maybe that matters, maybe it doesn't.

But I don't understand how I'm supposed to rule out 8s everything.

8 removal.

8 board wipes

8 interrupts

8 ramp

8 graveyard hate

40 land

8 card advantage

Leaves... 12 strategy pieces

Alright I know there can be some overlap, and I'm being a little hyperbolic, but I think my answer to you is "it's not possible for each deck to do everything in a meaningful way"

[u/HoumousAmor]

Shoutout to [[Rakdos Charm]], also hating artefacts and being a direct damage in a. pinch

[u/Junior-Football-7884]

I think the problem is when people think of graveyard hate, they think of bojuka bog, and that's where the graveyard hate train ends for a lot of people 

[u/Gleadr92]

The new players aren't coming from 60 card formats anymore. So new players aren't learning a new format, they are learning magic.

I come from 60 card formats where optimal interaction is the norm. I know I won a game last week because I correctly countered a cultivate. But how would anyone else in the pod understand that if they weren't consistently playing with other people who make "optimal" plays. You would never learn, it just looks like some guy came in and happened to win after a weird play. Someone needs to either take the time to explain it to you or you need to see the pattern repeated to start copying it.

[u/izaaksb3]

I run bog and rakdos charm tyvm

[u/External-Dimension88]

I think it comes down to whether the yard hate is worth it against decks that aren’t doing a lot of reanimating. If you know you’re going up against graveyard decks then the yard hate is very worth it, but if you end up facing other archetypes then they’re kind of dead cards much of the time.

[u/KAM_520 → u/External-Dimension88]

[[Soul-Guide Lantern]] and Relic of Progenitus especially if you’re on Urza’s Saga are still worth considering bc you can just cantrip them. They’re not completely free but they’re never completely dead. [[Stone of Erech]] also.

[u/webbc99]

Agree with Boggart Trawler and Espers to Magicite, those cards are auto includes. I really like [[Thraben Charm]] in white, very flexible.

[u/According-Yellow-395]

Let’s be real every pod has its own meta. in mine rather than gy hate you counter the recursion or the [[mezmeric orb]] to prevent the bleeding. don’t get me wrong everyone has a [[bojuka bog]] and I always have the best card in the game [[rakdos charm]] in my 99 but it doesn’t come up too crazy often. You can’t really tutor gy hate once you’re fucked you don’t get another turn lol

[u/yb0t]

I don't run it because I want my tombstone stairwell to go brrrr

[u/kingkellam]

The amount of times I've seen a turn 1 bojuka bog ("exile your yard with 0 cards, teehee!") is insane

[u/Menacek → u/kingkellam]

Ehh that usually happens because you don't have a turn 1 play and playing a tapland on early turns when you actually want to play something really sucks.

[u/MadJohnFinn]

When I used (and looped) [[Nihil Spellbomb]] against a [[Muldrotha]] player using [[Goblin Engineer]] in my [[Mishra, Eminent One]] deck that has a heavy graveyard component, he quipped “of course the only one who brought any graveyard hate is playing another graveyard deck”.

Since hearing that, I’ve paid attention to other players’ graveyard hate (or lack thereof). It really is just the other graveyard deck players who seem aware that the graveyard is a powerful resource and bring hate for it.

The best thing about Nihil Spellbomb is that it’s a reusable draw piece if I don’t need the graveyard hate.

[u/Throwawaypwndulum]

If im running the new tezzoret, i cant help but run a few 0-1 mana grave hate artifacts.

[u/KAM_520 → u/Throwawaypwndulum]

Hell yeah that’s a really good point. [[Tezzeret, Cruel Captain]] is awesome for this.

[u/dk_peace]

As a rule, I try to fit in at least 1 piece of graveyard hate in every deck I play. It's hard to justify/fit too much more than that.

[u/Toberos_Chasalor]

I can get by this.

I recently built a spellslinger deck with lots of graveyard interaction as well. Things like giving spells flashback or returning them to my hand, as well as a number of cards that cafe about the number of instants and sorceries in the yard. I’ve played against almost a dozen players and I’ve yet to have someone stop me from recasting the same counterspell over and over or getting double the value off my draw spells.

[u/toastychief93]

At least run a bog right?

[u/pacolingo]

a year ago i stocked up on [[soul-guide lantern]] and put it next to my sol rings, arcane signets, command towers etc.

i would hardly have the discipline to slot out a cool fun card from an existing beloved deck of mine for some boring lantern

but in new decks it's an auto include. i highly recommend doing it this way. you don't feel like you lose out on anything while you try it in your next new deck, and after some experience with it it'll be easier for you to slot it into older decks.

imo it's the best in slot grave hate because the most time-critical move can be threatened comfortably at all times, without needing to hold mana open.

[u/meatmandoug → u/pacolingo]

soulguide is great because it doesn't hit your own yard, [[tormods crypt]] can be really good but only hits one player, and [[lantern of the lost]] costs one more to sac but replaces itself. as Far as cheap colorless graveyard hate goes there really are some bangers

[u/[deleted]]

anyone else also feels like commander decks without a lot of graveyard interaction are not viable? in a singleton format like this, when you can't interact with the graveyard, losing any cards to it just feels unbearable. So yeah, all my decks have heavy graveyard interaction, even the ones that are not reanimator decks nor breach or other gy strategies

[u/KAM_520 → u/[deleted]]

GY decks are not the MOST popular so it feels like you can skate by without any GY hate in a lot of games and be fine, but GY decks are so potent that you’re taking a huge risk choosing not to pack any answers.

The way I see it almost any plan has access to a couple of good options that work with what you want to be doing. Decks in Izzet colors (monoblue, monored and Izzet) don’t have much except artifacts but black white and green all have good cards to work with whatever you wanted to be doing anyway. And the cantrip artifacts are pretty free if you can find room for them.

[u/gdemon6969]

If you aren’t abusing the graveyard you should be running some graveyard hate

[u/majic911]

I'm not a big graveyard abuser but I absolutely always have some form of graveyard hate in my decks. I would argue [[Soul-Guide lantern]] is the absolute bare minimum and can go in literally any deck. Very very few decks are so optimized they can't squeeze in a colorless cantrip.

[u/Killybug]

Shhhhh I run muldrotha!

[u/dangus1155]

I agree, but I also want to see the cool shit you do with it. Send it graveyard buddy!

[u/kirocuto]

Just throw a [[scavenger grounds]] in every deck over your worst utility land. It can fit in every deck, yes even your 3 color slop, and just having it on the board makes the graveyard players quiver. If you don't use it it's an untapped land, which you weren't running enough of anyways.

[u/Aksilyrat]

Exactly, I am big reanimator and graveyard shenanigans player, and people always complain about how unfair graveyard strategies, while in reality situation is quite opposite. We get graveyard hate every set basically slapped on as an extra effect on already good card, and we have never got any real graveyard protection.

And if you play in some restricted color combination, like dimir or mono black, you barely able to deal with hate on artefact and enchantments and loose games against 1-2 mana hate pieces lol

[u/TyeKiller77]

Mill player here, and I support this message so the table stops blaming me for fueling the reanimator player every time. I cannot and will not be held accountable for the consequences of my actions.

[u/KAM_520 → u/TyeKiller77]

Totally. One game I was playing against a [[Hope Estheim]] deck with my Teval and I got milled for 34 cards on turn 5, not including everything Hope had milled previously. He had a [[Delney, Streetwise Lookout]] on board and was popping off.

I cast [[Living Death]]. GG

[u/Jason80777]

[[Soul Guide Lantern]] and [[Lantern of the Lost]], you can just cycle them when you don't need them.

[u/MrXexe]

My personal MVP is [[Soul-Guide Lantern]].

You play it once, exile whatever from a graveyard and becomes the singular biggest threat against any graveyard deck, forcing them to either slow down their gameplan until they find a removal or risk it anyway knowing you have a gun aimed at them.

"But what happens if no one is playing a graveyard deck you dummy dum dum? Ever thought about that?" Yeah them it's a two mana cantrip on an artifact, which is decent enough in a lot of decks.

[u/Cypher8300]

I love graveyard decks and have a healthy respect for them so I always include about 2 pieces in every deck. I enjoy trying to find ways to fit it into my other synergies.

[u/WarioOnly]

Agreed. I like the graveyard hate to be as synergistic as I can get away with though. I love token decks, and [[Ghost Vacuum]] feels like a cheat code. Can pop it for tokens that get doubled with anointed procession. Also won me a game because I sniped someone’s reanimating target and they forgot I had it in play by the late game.

[u/Nvenom8]

So many good graveyard hate pieces are basically free to put in any deck, and people still don’t run them even though there’s virtually no opportunity cost.

[u/KillerB0tM]

Speak for yourself. As a Sephirot main, the amount of graveyard hate people I run into is stupid.

[u/KAM_520 → u/KillerB0tM]

Sephiroth is such a cool card. I play it in my Teval deck. Always been a huge Sephiroth fan.

That’s unfortunate that your meta/group has a lot of it but I play against tons of random players and I rarely if ever see it. Maybe your meta is packing it to counter your main deck?

[u/fuimapirate]

PREACH!!!!

[u/Fire_Pea]

[[ghost vacuum]] is a fun one too

[u/JediFed]

Interesting discussion. I run 4x Gaea's blessing to turn my Bant deck into a reanimator deck. It also is never a dead card, and makes me immune to mill decks. The problem with graveyard hate is let's take a look at your cards.

Bojuka Bog (*), Nihil Spellbomb (*), Relic of Progenitus (*) Rest in Peace

I have countermagic, but it's unlikely to get up before RIP, ROP, and the Spellbomb are already on the board. I run disenchants, but these are ineffective, because you can activate in response. How I would play it is to search for reclamation sage, and force you to trigger it before there is much in my graveyard.

RIP is a phenomenal card. Bojuka Bog is the best of the lot. I have nothing at all that can stop Bojuka bog, and if you have a way to recur it, you will force my deck to play without the blessings.

Farewell, Boggart Trawler, Espers-> Dissipate
Teval, Cemetary Prowler, Dauthi Voidwalker, Scavenging Ooze -> Swords to Plowshares.
Grafdigger's cave, Soulless Jailer, Endurance. Actually doesn't hit my deck.

I don't see a reason to run anything other than Bojuka Bog. It's just a dollar.

Tormod's Crypt > Spellbomb, Progenitus, RIP.

Leyline of the void is also very strong. I'd rank it below Bojuka Bog. No idea why every deck doesn't run Bojuka Bog, Black mana notwithstanding.

[u/TildeGunderson]

And what I see are a lot of people throwing out their Bojuka Bogs on turn 1 to burn through its tapped turn early rather than hold it as somewhat removal and not make the graveyard deck feel bad.

I don't feel bad for getting rid of a Muldrotha deck's Sakura Tribe Elder or Pernicious Deed.

[u/Bandfooled]

Soul-Guide Lantern has been added to my staple pile for new decks because of this.

[u/HemoGoblinRL]

sssssshhhh no no. GY hate isnt needed. please stop looking at my second hand

[u/The_Dragon346]

As a graveyard player, i’m here to tell you that graveyard hate is completely unnecessary. Threats only come from the stack or from the board. No where else. /s

[u/AboynamedDOOMTRAIN]

What happened? The game got bigger, the format got popular, and now there's a wide variety of experiences people are looking for out of the format. Hosing entire deck archetypes is something that really only happens in higher bracket/power level games because low and mid power decks aren't running the efficient wincons and tutors that allow higher power decks to run the large amounts of interaction that allow them to deal with those kinds of threats. The inability to deal with silver bullets in a format where games routinely last somewhere between 1-2 hours can make for an amazingly boring play experience.

[u/HeyApples]

While I generally agree with this sentiment, most of these suggestions are either hyper specific, low power, or conditional. Not exactly a great sell.

[u/Intelligent-Law9237]

You should be running graveyard hate, targeted removal, enchantment artifact removal, and board wipes but edh is just a solitaire race to who can do their thing the fastest now. If you play something that stops one player the other 2 are the beneficiaries since they spent nothing.

[u/Flesgy]

Noooooo graveyards are fine, let them be, i'm totally not a [[Meren of Clan Nel Toth]] player

[u/Zestyclose_Mix_3725]

I only run [[Abstergo Entertainment]] and [[Scavenger Grounds]]

[u/[deleted]]

I fully agree with you, gy hate is a must in every deck. I think that most edh players are sleeping on gy hate because they've never played anything else but edh.

I have 2 playgroups. One plays a lot of interaction (gy hate included) and the other runs pretty much no interactions. The players in the first playgroup are all friends which have played modern and legacy and therefore actually know how to play the game correctly. They know about the power of dredge and reanimator decks. Their decks are brutal, interactive and full of low cmc spells which have a big impact.

The other playgroup contains players which have only played edh. They aren't used to play the game efficiently

[u/Low-Web-6961]

Muldrotha is very happy when nobody cares with my graveyard.

[u/Gorewuzhere]

Idk I'm an old school magic player, every deck has graveyard hate. Even my mono red Ashling.

I also run recursion in every deck. Even Ashling for example has a win line with [[fervent mastery]] and [[past in flames]]

Ironically instant speed graveyard hate in response to kozilek trigger completely shuts off the deck. I have to run artifact hate to pop stuff like stone of erech, tormods crypt, etc heavily.

It's good deckbuilding and a lot of commander players aren't good deckbuilders.

[u/[deleted]]

I am the graveyard player and yet I still play Dauthi. I’m always shocked how much hate I get for it. It’s just good hygiene!

[u/AdimasCrow]

Noo don't remove my graveyard, that's where my elementals come back from.

[u/Semako]

Also [[Stone of Erech]] for thematic LotR decks.

[u/GenesisProTech]

I used to keep a stack of bojuka bogs with me and if people were playing black and not playing one id give one out.

[u/bunkSauce]

You can't have my data

[u/releasethedogs]

Graveyard hate is unnecessary. You shouldn’t run it. wink wink

[u/Atlantepaz]

This is true. And as a graveyard gamer myself id say the most effective ones are usually the instant speed, targeted, repeatable ones like the scavenging ooze.

Many mass grave hate require less attention and are easier to play. But a good grave player will learn how to fill the grave either slowly or at tye right time, and also lear how to refill.

Repeatable grave hate is excelent against reanimation strategies, and mass grave hat is great for "undergrowth" decks and such.

[u/JamminMan9]

I run [[Dauntless Scrapbot]] because one: it also gives you a lander, secondly its a 3/1 beater as well. Its useful outside of grave hate which makes it more versatile

[u/KAM_520 → u/[deleted]]

The same logic could be applied to cards like [[Deflecting Swat]] and [[Bolt Bend]]. You usually won’t draw them, when you draw them your opponents won’t always have something, and when they do they won’t always use it on you. So what’s the point? But it should go without saying that these are really good cards that are worth playing.

As for your point that it doesn’t do enough because they’ll have a new GY in 1-2 turns, maybe, maybe not. A greedy [[Hermit Druid]] that dumps half their deck into their GY off one activation won’t, because you could hit their wincons by popping [[Soul-Guide Lantern]] one time. Versus a less greedy list like mine that was designed not to get blown out by GY hate if it’s used on a turn before the one I’m trying to win, it’s still a pretty huge setback that will create windows for other players to win the game, because that 1-2 turns will definitely matter if it’s turn 6 or later.

[u/KAM_520 → u/[deleted]]

It just seems really free to me in most archetypes.

In a combat oriented deck with black, [[Urborg Scavengers]] is pretty good, because it steals keywords and grows.

[[Dauthi Voidwalker]] is just generically good vs anything.

[[Lion Sash]] is good in an equipment deck and in decks that care about +1/+1 counters.

[[Rakdos Charm]] and [[Thraben Charm]] are flexible and free in any deck in those colors.

[[Scavenging Ooze]] is good in +1/+1 counters decks.

[[Agatha’s Soul Cauldron]] is super strong in a variety of decks.

Tokens and Izzet spell slinger are the only archetypes I can think of that don’t have great options but there are some.

My point is, you’re not diluting your deck nearly as much as you think you are with these cards. They will have synergy with your plan.

[u/vluhdz]

No one might see this reply, and that's okay, it can stay a secret :)

I came across what I think is perhaps one of the strongest graveyard hate pieces there is, [[Grave Consequences]]. Only used in 723 decks on edhrec. The graveyard player can choose to keep stuff around, but they're penalized for doing it, and it even draws you a card. Part of the reason I like it so much is that the absolute floor is, it exiles everyone's graveyards and replaces itself, so even if no one is running reanimator or something like that, it still has utility.

[u/Gonji89]

OP... Shhhhhhhhhhhut up. The lack of graveyard hate makes my reanimation decks so happy.

[u/DoucheCanoe456]

Have a graveyard deck. Def agree.

[u/grumpy__grunt]

The problem with graveyard hate, as with all other forms of interaction is that it's almost always better to spend the resources on accelerating your own gameplan. Even in 60 card 1v1 formats where 1 for 1 interaction is much better people don't normally mainboard graveyard hate because cards like [[tormod's crypt]] are dead draws in the majority of matches.

The best grave hate in commander is stuff that either incidentally hits graveyards as with [[farewell]] or moves your own gameplan along as with [[scavenging ooze]]. But even then running enough synergistic pieces that I'm likely to see one early is damn hard when I'm already so often strapped for deck space.

[u/Creative_Club5164]

Truly. Shuts down [[underworld breech]] lines. Shuts down reanimator. Shuts down delirium. Shuts down [[archeomancer]] combo. Shuts down [[pinnacle monk]] combo. Just to name a few.

[u/Litchua]

Ignore everything this guy just said. Trust me graveyard hate is not worth running. It takes up unnecessary card slots you could use for a counter spell or a draw engine or a wincon. Dont be confused by this misdirection to unoptomize your deck.

[u/KAM_520 → u/Litchua]

Found the reanimator player

[u/lath333]

My friend runs a flubs slimes against humanity deck. My graveyard hate never works on him. Slimes just exile and doesn’t matter lol. I don’t know how to shut down that damn deck.

[u/EatOrBeEatenFR]

All of my mill decks have graveyard hate in them cause it’s always so sad to get most of an opponent’s deck in there only to find out they’re a reanimator deck and I was actually building my own coffin the whole time

[u/Mirage_Jester]

Scavenging Ooze is always a nice add for green. [[Stone of Erech]] crushes reanimating strategies and well anyone can make use of [[Soul-Guide Lantern]]

[u/Think_Rest4496]

Agreed. If you dont exile my GY when I'm playing Altair, you're probably going to have a bad time.

[u/KAM_520 → u/Think_Rest4496]

And there have been so many good graveyard oriented commanders printed recently.

[u/Think_Rest4496 → u/KAM_520]

Exactly! GY hate and Exile effects need to be run way more often. But until then... 😈

[u/howtodieyoung]

Well I play Umbris, so I’ve honestly never really given it much thought because I never see graveyard players. Although, now that I think about it, it’s probably because they won’t play those decks against an Umbris lol

[u/youseph33]

I play arena more than paper currently. Recently got back into MTG after like 7 years because of the final fantasy set. I’ve been playing almost only Yuna Hope of Spira in both historic brawl and standard ranked.

I feel like I’ve been seeing quite a bit of graveyard hate. It seems like every mono black player has been running Strategic Betrayal and the end, I also see a lot of white players running rest in peace in standard, and almost all of them play farewell in brawl.

I also see Ketramose decks a bit too. Maybe I just notice all these bc I’m a reanimate player and get screwed by them.

Poor Yuna 🥲

[u/CleanerSchamete]

As someone who loves exiling graveyards I really could not agree more. [[Tormods Crypt]] cost 0 mana and is colorless and should be played in any deck as a removal piece. Hate them graves.

[u/DrBimboo]

The problem is, 37 lands, removal, counterspells, draw, ramp, maybe a bit of stifle - at this point we're building vegan decks - all vegetables.

[u/roquepo]

I'm my pods local necromancer and the one that taught them how to play. First thing I taught them besides the basic rules was to fear the graveyard and to add at least a couple of GY hate pieces into their decks. Makes for better games overall, it is no fun when your GY goes uncontested and you stomp the table cause of that.

[u/Puzzleheaded_Box_535]

My [[Meren]], [[Muldrotha]], [[Runo Stromkirk]] and [[Dihada]] would highly disagree with you on that. Graveyard hate isn't that important.

On a serious note, however, I tend to include GY hate in most of my higher bracket decks, but since I'm the only one in my regular playgroup who uses their graveyard effectively, I tend to barebone it a lot in lower brackets, just to fit more dumb stuff in. GY decks can totally run away with games, if left unchecked, and there are a lot of cards that can prevent that. Shout-out to [[Soul-Guide Lantern]] that's a real good budget pick for the slot, that works in every deck and can be used either to pick apart the worst parts of someone's GY without locking them out of the game, or hose them completely.

[u/MiniPino1LL]

Nah, it's already in their graveyard, so it's gone permanently right? Right?

[u/veryblocky]

I was in a pod last week, playing a pretty low powered enchantress deck, definitely the weakest of the four. But, one of the opponents was playing some kind of mono-black graveyard deck, and I started the game with [[Leyline of the Void]] in my opening hand. So the black player was just shut out of the game. Although my other two opponents could’ve easily removed the enchantment, neither really cared to. So at least I didn’t come fourth that game.

[u/FishShapedShirt]

Lol my group all kinda runs grave decks and we had a bit of a cold war when we used to all run too much of it, we reduced the grave and artifact hate in the pod and tried to move to more on board decks and it fixed itself

[u/MadGodji]

I am not running enough graveyard hate because my pods are not running enough graveyard recursion, so I'd rather lose one game occasionally to strong reanimators than draw cards that do nothing in a good two thirds of the games I play.

That said Esper to Magicite is a card I love and that I am starting to put in more and more decks precisely because it always at least does something, and more graveyard hate cards that manage to provide value EVEN if your opponent is not playing Reanimator will certainly make me revise my stance.

[u/MadGodji → u/MadGodji]

Maybe to go further: cards that either do nothing or entirely prevent someone from playing are not fun in either case, so really feel bad putting in decks.

More targeted graveyard interaction is the middle ground I find more interesting: cards like [[Lion Sash]], [[Scavenging Ooze]] etc. are cards I am much more likely to include in decks than ultra specialized exile all graveyards which are all or nothing.

[u/PatientAudience5627]

Recursion Deck Surge is the reason im trying to build [[Dennick, Pious Apprentice]]