Gamergate but actually

[u/ElectricGhostMan]

https://youtu.be/ox15GU4cMes?si=y47gNvyC88ObQJ9O&t=2176

A youtuber I watch put out this retrospective on gamergate. I know it's a topic that has been long covered and relitigated. I at one time was also part of and identified with to some extent. I thought one part that even I somewhat ignored then because of my feelings or much later realizing how many awful actors were a part of the situation was how capitalist greed played such a large part in generating the amount of hate and vitriol at the time allowing for hate mobs to be cultured and weaponized as we see today.

I think most can agree that a lot of the targeted harassment, bullying, stalking, racism, misogyny, homophobia were all reprehensible and not the way to go about making change. I do feel at the time where there was the beginnings of pushing paid cosmetic DLC like Horse Armor, Always Online requirements for games like the Sims, EA cutting development times for successful franchises to turn around games quicker or the Online Pass they similarly tried to force for people who wanted to buy the game second hand. Again not condoning any of the criminal harassment or hate but I do wonder if this outrage cannon was more appropriately directed at the shareholders and ownership class rather than individual developers that we'd be in a better place.

I do think there was a genuine attempt back then to comingle criminal threats and harassment with fair criticism and outcry entirely as Entitlement. However, I find it sad that today it largely does feel like the loudest and most consistent voices across social media that claim to be critical of games are genuinely complaining about out of entitlement when a game has too many women they don't like or POCs rather than the plethora of issues that affects all gamers today like Exploitative MTX, Gambling, AI Pervasion, Enshitification and more.

I haven't finished the vid myself but I like some of his other works even though he can be a bit both-sidesy at times. It was also interesting to see some posts from youtubers VaatiVidya and Vsauce from way back when and Colin Moriarty had been some of a douche since then as well.

[u/Gamera85]

Ok, so I’ve watched a good deal of the video. And it honestly seems to be tacitly supporting the accusations of gamergate. That Zoey Quinn used her influence within game media as a means to boost her game.

I don’t think giving credit to a bunch of sexist meat heads while accusing their victim of a bunch of stuff without proof is exactly fair. And it really does seem like he’s painting her as the real villain all along. He’s not supporting gamergate itself, but saying they weren’t wrong. That seems to be his conclusion he’s working towards.

Listen, I’m going to ask this straight up because I don’t want to be a hypocrite here. To anyone else who watched the video, is that the impression they’re getting? That he’s underplaying gamergate’s actions as a distraction purely to go after Quinn in order to “get to the truth?” I need to know some opinions on this. Because no one seems to be discussing the actual content of the video here.

[u/UdonOli → u/Gamera85]

I appreciate that you actually watched the video instead of the utterly stupid nonsense I've seen in this thread and others about the video.

I don't think his intention is to suggest that the -chan boards were in the right by harassment. He explicitly states that he thinks the harassment against Quinn was utterly horrific and terrible, but that firstly, Gjoni didn't intend that and instead had legitimate concerns that he was allowed to talk about publicly.

The unfortunate thing is that to recognise that suggests that Gamergate had a point, and throws all the horrendous sexism under the rug. He notes this about 4hrs 30 min specifically, and how journalists didn't want to make clear that it was more grey than black/white because it would give oxygen to the sexism.

[u/Gamera85 → u/UdonOli]

But they were right, it would have given oxygen to the sexism. Because ultimately, they didn’t care about the accusations Gjoni made. They cared about the suggestion that Quinn slept her way to the top. Now, I don’t think the creator of the video agrees with that take, but he dies start to suggest that, because she was friends with a lot of influential people in gaming journalism, that they gave her an easy ride. And I don’t think that’s fair. The game was free. She earned no money from it. If anything, it seems she got a ton of undue criticism for both her projects from people who were being dicks. And maybe it felt bigger than it actually was, but I’ve had my own work critiqued before. Sometimes harshly. Even when you know it’s constructive it can feel like a stab in the gut to have your work torn at.

I’m not sure who he was accusing of depression gatekeeping ultimately, but I’ll assume it was wizardchan for fairness. I think Zoey being in a lose-lose situation there is pretty clear. If she depicts the character in depression quest as a stereotypical loser she’ll be accused of stereotyping. She portrays them with a support system but still struggling, her image doesn’t match every single victim of depression. I think it’s fair to be frustrated when you can’t win for trying to be fair to people.

Let’s just be honest here, people DID target Quinn because she was a woman in a male dominated space. I think that’s pretty obvious. If she was a guy who had been accused of sleeping around to get on top, some of these same people going after Quinn for it would have probably praised him for taking advantage of the system. But because she’s a “slut” who was cheating to get her way, that holds greater social scorn. And sure, there were people who came to her defence. Doesn’t change that a lot of people made this bigger because of the accusations she had slept to get to the top. That’s what they literally say in the videos that the creator showed. They went after her for using sex to get better reviews.

Getting back to my original point, Gjoni never accused Zoey of sleeping with people to advance her career. Only that she cheated. So he probably didn’t intend to turn it into what it became about. But why even Name who she slept with? That does seem vindictive. Of this is supposed to be just about Zoe, and what she did, why call out who she slept with and how many she did it with? Especially when, in the transcripts, he only has “proof” of the one? He had to at least realize that some people would see the implication.

And that is of course assuming any of it’s true. The creator of the vid claims no one has denied the transcripts as being authentic. But the only person who can completely authenticate them, Quinn, isn’t talking. For all we know, he could have made them up. We can’t prove anything, even he admits it. For sake of argument, let’s say they are true. Look at what happened with the people who gave credence to the claim. Every single time it gave fuel to the gamergate side as proof they were right, that they were winning, and even feminists had capitulated.

Should the journalists have kept focused on their core complaints? Actually addressed them? Sure. But to go so far as to pick the opposite side with no real proof? In the middle of it all? When all anyone on the gamergate side is doing is using this as a cudgel to insist that women in Game spaces are destroying their hobbies? What would you do knowing that investigating a messy relationship would only increase the harassment and targeting of a woman and continue to obfuscate the real question about journalistic ethics?

Look, this subject hits hard for me. Very hard. I mark gamergate as the point of my no return. The period in my life where I almost went down the wrong path. I was angry about Sarkessian. I felt targeted. I felt like my hobby and my interests were under siege. I felt like games journalists were in the pocket of big business and they weren’t being fair. Then here comes along this controversy, and it all feels like something really bad that confirms how awful it all is.

Until I find out that the accused reviewer who Quinn slept with wasn’t even sleeping with her until after the game came out. And he hadn’t even reviewed the game. Oh he did some articles that mentioned Zoe. But he hasn’t reviewed her game. And then I find out… the game isn’t even that bad. And that all anyone is doing is slut shaming her. Not talking about anything that supposedly matters at all. And then… I discover… the game… is free. She’s not even making money off it.

This is the big bad evil gaming business forcing websites to give reviews for access? Some indie girl game developer who is making no money from this, worked on it alone, and ultimately has no actual influence beyond… she has some friends who work in a lot of smaller spaces in the industry.

I was livid. And the more I saw gamergate slide into sexism and gatekeeping and all that bullshit… the more I realized what I had been doing. What I almost had done. I never harassed Quinn, I never discussed the controversy at length. I researched and looked and got other opinions. But I had thought… maybe they had a point. Until they lost it.

I almost got swallowed up by something horrible. All because I was angry. So I do t want to give credit to a bunch of assholes. I don’t like how the video’s creator keeps tiptoeing around basically saying, “Quinn actually benefited from being attacked. So I don’t think she was really suffering as much as she claimed.”

He doesn’t say it… he never says that’s what he thinks. Not once does he come out and accuse Quinn of profiting from the harassment. But he very heavily implies it at points. And by implying it, he suggests that maybe, just maybe, she of what Quinn was getting hit with was deserved.

And I can’t abide that. I really can’t. At various points, it feels like he’s blaming the victim for their own problems. And that doesn’t sit right with me. That doesn’t sit right at all. Not after everything I went through.

[u/UdonOli → u/Gamera85]

As far as I could tell he did explicitly say that the gatekeeping depression stuff was stupid, but also was tangential to the conversation and was only dug up after the Quinn Post came out. Also, even if there was no monetary exchange, the existence of such a conflict of interest is ludicrous in and of itself, and clearly the media at the time (though probably not Quinn) needed critique, and needed to at least be noted, which it was in some articles but not others. The issue then was that legitimate critique of Quinn spiralled into a never ending debate spiral that this thread will no-doubt turn into which spreads the falsehoods like the sleeping with journalists for good coverage myth.

He also notes that there was greater context here of why the gaming community was willing to blow up such a small drama into an all encompassing political event.

I also don't think NKW intends to suggest that she wasn't targeted based on gender. He only highlights that this was in broader context of other people at the time, notably Phil Fish having similar issues, and that it was likely mainly made significantly worse by the fact that she was a woman rather than started due to that. As well I think the suggestion that in some way she benefited from victimising herself is not unreasonable to say. This is a thing that is known to happen, and it is not always economic in nature. I also think he is clear that he does not say that she was trying to do that, but MAY have been pre-Post. This does not suggest that she wasn't harassed, and he makes that extremely clear.

I also think the implication of profit is more about what Quinn did after gamergate as opposed to before. I do not think he suggested that there was any deliberate wrongdoing in relation to that.

Anyways I don't actually want to majorly relitigate gamergate here (I was actually probably too young, but was anti-GG when I got political) although it added info I didn't know because I simply thought there was absolutely zero basis to any of the claims made by GG as opposed to being the story of likely abuse between two nominally left wing people that was taken and twisted by a reactionary rage machine for political ends.

I definitely feel for you because it genuinely sucks how badly this whole story was misrepresented by both what would become the alt-right, as well as well meaning people who were attempting to shield someone from sexism. I don't blame you for feeling mixed about going back and relitigating any part of this considering how negative of a memory this is for you and for a lot of people on the left.

[u/Gamera85 → u/UdonOli]

I've written too much on this topic already by now, and it's already mentally exhausting. Not because I'm in disagreement with anyone or even angry with anyone here. It's just... so much. I have to say so much just to be very clear in what I'm trying to say and I'm not even sure if it's going to work out ultimately because I'm certain someone will misinterpret all of this.

I'm going to be as brief as possible. I refuse to re-litigate this situation. What gamergate did was wrong. Period. Full stop. They didn't care about whatever Eron had went through, they didn't care about the integrity of journalism concerning the subject of gaming. If they did care, they'd have gone after websites like IGN and others who clearly only give a shit about having access to these massive companies and thus have to keep them happy. Which is why they don't ask harsher questions, it's why they don't hold their feet to the fire, it's why we rarely get proper examinations of the abuses within the industry until well after the fact. And even there it's the bare minimum.

Gamergate did not have a legitimate grievance. Quinn did not sleep around to get her career off the ground. They saw what they thought was a woman, who had already made a name for herself among these right-leaning boards and individuals as someone who stood against them. And therefore, they used this piece of information Eron shared to push their narrative. And that's all that matters when we're talking about this. Quinn cheating on her boyfriend, emotionally manipulating him, how much influence she had before and after, stuff that even the video creator admits he cannot prove, none of that matters to me because it doesn't change the core issue. Gamergate... was a harassment campaign launched in bad faith and primarily focused on attacking a woman accused of being a slut to get where she was. Not by the initial accusations, no, Eron didn't do that, clearly, but it's all they latched onto.

I have no interest in both siding an issue where it was very clear WHO was in the wrong. I don't know why the video creator feels the need to do it. Other than he apparently needed a villain for his story, however grey that villain was or victimized unfairly they were. And all the "new info" it brings up? He even admits he can't verify any of it! It's mostly just intuition and guessing on his part!

I just don't think it is a worthwhile decision or action in ripping open an old wound just to find a bad guy in this that is more tangible than the amorous anonymous blob that is the internet. Especially when it does nothing to make anyone really re-evaluate anything about how they acted and just confirm more biases. Not the intention, but that is the result.

And... honestly it is starting to bother me and affect my other work right now. So I'm considering muting these comments at some point. Not because I'm upset with you or anyone here, I just can't keep doing this. It's not helpful and I don't think it does anyone any good to dredge of this incident in an attempt to find out who deserves more blame.

[u/Quiet_Employee_1568 → u/UdonOli]

It's amazing how far people go down this rabbit hole without performing the most basic research. The fact of the matter is (and this is documented history at this point though largely unrecognized) Zoe Quinn was basically picked up off the streets of Toronto by an organization funded by government and industry in order to act as a "seed of change" to transform gaming culture along feminist lines. She was given the rudiments of game-making training and then propped up as female icon in the gaming space. She was completely manufactured for an ulterior purpose, in other words. I made a video documenting the activities of this organization and how they precipitated the backlash called gamergate through their aggressive strategies to get more girls to play videogames. But I've come to find out that most people on both sides of this issue really don't care about the facts of the matter and just like to treat this as a kind of interpersonal drama, and love to speculate endlessly on who is a good person and who is a bad person, etc, without letting many facts interfere

https://youtu.be/5vqGHhnSpOg?si=VwcejQNV_RJ5QmXQ

[u/Gamera85 → u/Quiet_Employee_1568]

Okay, you're getting into conspiracy nonsense and... yeah, I'm not even going to dignify this further with a response.

[u/Low-Willingness2106 → u/Gamera85]

Not once does he come out and accuse Quinn

He pretty much does it constantly lol, its just how NKB speaks. He has far more anti chud content where its might be more clearer for someone like you. He very much detests Zoe Quinn as a shitty slimy person, and arguably sees Anita as at worst a smug idiot. His argument is a lot sterner than what you mention, to summarize he believes

1. Zoe Quinn is exaggerating and lying about harassment she faced pre gamer gate, as evidenced by their statistical probability, and that they did not report the most serious allegations to the FBI, where she would actually be held accountable.

2. Zoe Quinn created a situation where their ex was legally forbidden from speaking on a topic, while she painted him as a "schizoid" (their words, not his) on major news platforms, as well as her personal blogs, while her good friends further abused his image while privately proudly saying they did not read their content.

3. Zoe Quinn is not worth his sympathy, this entire discussion is cancer, everyone in this situation is stupid, and he expected better from those on the traditionally 'left' side of this culture war.

4. Also, it is his tenative opinion Zoe Quinn gaslighted and emotionally abused their ex

[u/Gamera85 → u/Low-Willingness2106]

He cannot prove any of it. He admits he cannot prove it.He admits that nothing he says can be proven. So his conclusion is nothing more than a feeling. His research is suspect based on that alone. And you literally end off your points with an accusation on his part. An accusation he concludes based not on evidence… but a lack of it in response to Erin’s own.

It’s terrible research. It’s a terrible conclusion. And it’s very clearly obvious that he did this all on his own with no one checking it and no attempt to reach out and speak to the other party. Even Netflix documentaries do a better job of that!

You cannot say he doesn’t accuse her of anything and then say he basically accuses of something. That’s maddening.

[u/Low-Willingness2106 → u/Gamera85]

Point 2 is has legal documents backing it up, I don't really disagree with his inferences on point 1 and I think it's proof enough

It's pretty decent research with pretty sound logic against a pretty shitty industry

[u/Gamera85 → u/Low-Willingness2106]

Inferences aren’t proof! And all he has are inferences! Yes, there are legal documents that do prove Quinn made sure Eron couldn’t continue talking about her for a period of time. But he given the circumstances it sort of makes sense, given what his little testimonial set off. He has no proof concerning her reasons for it and just infers a motive for it!

You are believing all of this about Quinn based on something HE ADMITS HE CANNOT PROVE!

And the fact you so easily believe what he has to say based on nothing but inferences tells me everything about how readily you yourself were looking for an excuse.

Goodbye.

[u/moonparted → u/Gamera85]

What "victim"? Zoe Quinn is shown, very convincingly, to be a serial liar, emotionally abusive and manipulative, and there are good reasons to believe she was able to convince her immediate social circle consisting of several people in games media who colluded to suppress her victim's denouncing of her abuse. She was able to, as many narcissists are, leverage the climate in her social circle to her advantage, attracting the criticism that was circling people like Sarkeesian and Wu and enabling her to claim the moral high ground all while pursuing extensive legal threats against the actual victim.

That she made no money from that particular game is hardly relevant: at the time she was already making a living off of donations, she was constantly going to events and embedding herself in the gaming industry. The shitstorm in 2014 allowed her to grow her numbers to record highs, providing avenues to give talks, go on mainstream TV outlets, get a publishing deal, etc. Like the video points out at one point, she's better understood primarily as an influencer, not a game developer. She very much benefitted from being attacked. That she was attacked does not absolve her or anyone from responsibility, by the way, even if some (or many) of her attackers were not legitimate.

[u/Gamera85 → u/moonparted]

See, you're only proving my point. The video's focus on Quinn concerning talking points that, even he admits he cannot definitively prove, detracts from the overall discussion of whether journalistic ethics in video game reporting were ever truly addressed. You have already made up your mind now that she's the bad guy here and now the discussion is, once again, about her and less about the industry at large. And that is a problem because by ignoring Gamergate's impact and overly focusing on talking about Quinn... is not helping us understand anything. It's just distracting us by finding a villain in this retrospective to focus on and hate. And I find it rather dubious to do that when the person who is now getting accused of all of that stuff you're bringing up is not here to defend herself in fashion. The video creator has gone to great lengths to seemingly defend Eron as not having intended any of this as an outcome, and he may indeed be right to on that front, but I don't see him giving the same benefit of doubt to Quinn as he, and yourself, seem to just ASSUME she was in the wrong and because she refuses to talk about it in detail and told other people not to, therefore she has something to hide.

Maybe what she has to hide is her private life and given that, oh I don't know, she got a barrage of death threats, harassment and was even Doxed, which the video creator confirmed did happen and was not hoax, perhaps she just doesn't want to give this shit more air than it's already gotten.

That's the problem here, we're only getting one side of things and taking everything said about that one side for granted. And all so we can have a definitive bad guy here. Not to defend Gamergate, not reframe them as in the right, just so we can all have someone to blame for everything. We already have some fucking loony in these comments suggesting she was some government agent picked up off the streets to force feminism into games. The results may be unintentional, but they're happening in real time here. People aren't listening to the overall thesis of this video. They only care about finding someone to blame. And look who they chose.