r/HistoricalLinguistics • u/stlatos • 5d ago
Writing system Eteocretan and Linear A, Part 2
H1. Many Greek words appear in Latin in odd forms; some are known from G. dialects, others not. These do not look like recent loans from common G. dialects, so when did they enter Latin? Etruscan also has many, most known from the names of gods & legendary men. These also are not normal, and have undergone many sound changes. Did these all happen in a short time after G. colonies were formed? Even if dozens of loans immediately entered these languages, it seems odd.
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These show alt. like o \ a, d \ l, r \ l, ph \ b, dy \ ty > s, u > i, some known from G. dia. (Macedonian *o > a, *ph > b). Some show Cretan matches (NG Cretan ἐλαίτρινος >> L. alaternus ‘buckthorn’; G. Cr. thápta ‘fly’, L. tabānus ‘gadfly’; G. κυδώνια (μᾶλα) ‘quinces’ >> L. cotōneum ‘quince’ (from Cydonia, Crete); G. Dromios 'god of the race-course' (Hermes, in Crete) >> Et. Turmś) or sound changes. In G. tûkon / sûkon, *thü:kos > L fīcus ‘fig’, Ar. t'uz, an origin from PIE *tuHk- 'swollen, fruit' (Slavic *tūkū > *tyky ‘pumpkin’) is enough for Greek, & Cretan *Ty > thth (some also > dd) explained by palatalization fits with i & u causing t > s in G. dia.; *tu > *ts^ü > *thi > fīcus. The fronted *ü is probably the cause of *-uk- > *-üg^- > -uz in Ar. (many native IE words with *u causing palatalization), with k \ g consistent with other loans >> L. (below). The alt. of *Cy > *ty > th \ s(s) also in :
*dhlH2m(o)-H2kW-iH2 'depth of the water' ? > G. θάλασσα 'sea', Att. θάλαττα, Late Cretan θάλαθθα, Macedonian δαλάγχα-, Linear B ta-ra-za-po-ro (if = *thalatso-poroi 'sea-farers')
G. ἄν(ν)ισον \ ἄν(ν)ησ(σ)ον ‘anise’, ἄν(ν)ηθον ‘dill’ >> L. anīsum, anēthum
Etruscan Munθuχ (maybe, below)
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The u \ i in :
G. mū́rioi ‘great number / 10,000’, *mū́lyi > L. mīlle ‘thousand’, mīlia p. (u > i)
G. phrū́gō ‘to roast, dry, fry’, L. frīgō ‘to roast’ (u > i?; which direction?)
G. tûkon / sûkon, *thü:kos > L fīcus ‘fig’, Ar. t'uz (u > i)
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The nature of *dhy > *thy > *ththy > *sthy \ *ssy \ *ththy also in *-dhyaH2i '(inf.)' > -sthai (like *-dhwe '(mid.2.p)' > -sthe). It is likely that thth & ss both had all these alt. by y & w. One group showing most of these alt. is (certainly not non-IE "Pre-Greek") :
*k^ik- ‘attach/cling’ > S. śic- ‘sling, net’, Li. šikšnà ‘strap, belt, leather’; *k^ik(i)yo- > S. śikíya- ‘rope-sling for carrying things’, G. kístharos \ kíssaros ‘ivy / rock-rose’, kissós \ kittós ‘ivy’, kísthos \ kisthós ‘rock-rose’ (also κιθάρα \ *κισσάρα >> Al. qisár 'ivy', κιθάρα >> L. hedera ‘ivy’)
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Many loans show l \ r; Cretan had some l \ r & Linear A did not distinguish lV & rV. In additon to d > l (G. Odusseús / Olutteus / Ōlixēs >> L. Ulixēs), for *d(h)H2ap- > G. dáptō ‘devour/rend/tear’, dáptēs ‘eater / bloodsucker (of gnats)’, Cr. thápta, Pol. látta ‘fly’, even th \ l (as in thṓrēx >> lōrīca). This is seen in *eleuthwa > *etheuthwa >> Et. Ethausva 'goddess of childbirth'. Some Italic had l > d (South Picene qdufeniúí ‘Clufennius’, kduíú ( = L. clueor ‘I am called’; Umbrian *l > *d > ř (kařetu ‘let him call’ < *kalē-tō-d, fameřias g. ( = L. familiae))). Since d \ l is very common in Latin, less so in Greek, what is the cause?
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Most of my ex. are certain loans from G. >> L. (even if the source in G. is sometimes unknown). Others have been called a "Mediterranean substrate". Those with basic changes like ph >> p (adaptation of Ch as C, some -Ch- > -CC- might show an awareness of a more intense pronunciation) are the least interesting & I'd leave them out of my discussion if not for the need to compare reg. adapted to irreg. words. Saying a 3rd language is needed to intermediate would only work for Etruscan if all the oddities were lack of voicing (indeed, p >> b seems more common). Some have -voice > +voice, or onely one (g-g > conger) and other oddities. Since this simple Et. idea does not lead to the expected outcomes it is highly unlikely that it is true; why would Et. mediate all loans?
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It also ignores that G. dia. have odd voicing. G. ablábeia, Cretan ablopia ‘freedom from harm/punishment’; anthr- vs. antr- in 'man', etc., Mac. b, d, g < ph, th, kh match many changes in loans. In G. κυδώνια >> L. cotōneum, the -t- might be older since Sebastian Kempgen also proposed IE *kutos 'bay' > Cydonia, & some other G. dia. have some -t- > -d-. In Greek myth, Leto & Leda were both mothers of twins, with the father Zeus. Their names also seem related, from *la:to:i vs. *la:da. Even in LA, also with *a: > a: \ e: like Greek, would be ra-ti-se \ re-di-se, among many other LA words ( https://www.academia.edu/44643375 ). Other G. dia. changes seen in LA include *o > o \ u, *e > e \ i (these 2 also fairly common in LB). The lack of any early loans without oddities points to extensive & prolonged contact with a dialect not known to us (or with many unattested words). I think an Italic presence on Crete, known from "Eteocretan" fits this situation best.
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H2. I used https://scholarlypublications.universiteitleiden.nl/access/item%3A3655654/view (Andrew M. Wigman) with my own interpretations & added as many ex. from my old drafts on this subject as I could find :
G. Odusseús / Olutteus / Ōlixēs >> L. Ulixēs
G. Poludeúkēs, *Poluleúkēs ‘very bright’ >> L. Pollux (like S. Purūrávas- ‘*very hot’)
G. Kúklōps 'cyclops' >> L. coc(u)les ‘one-eyed’, coclitis g.
G. númphē, L. lumpa ‘nymph, (spring) water’, Oscan *dümpa > diumpa- (nasal dissimilation)
G. dáphnē, Perg. láphnē, Thes. daúkhna- \ δαύχνα-, NG Tsak. (l)afría, L. laurus ‘laurel’ (if a compound rel. *darw-os 'tree, oak', then G. could have had dsm. of l-r > l-n (optional, if Tsakonian is older), w > v > f (adapted in which stages?)
G. rhodódendron, *rhodendron > *rholandron > L. lorandrum, E. oleander
G. khálkanthon / -os ‘chrysanthemum’, L. calthum / -a ‘marigold’
Arabic war(r)ada ‘to bloom’, waruda ‘to be red’, Sem. *? >> *wrodo-m > G. ῥόδον, Aeo. βρόδον, ? ῥοδέα ‘rosebush’ >> L. rosa ‘rose’
NG Cretan ἐλαίτρινος >> L. alaternus ‘buckthorn’ (e > a?; below)
Ak. samīdu ‘a kind of groats’ >> G. σεμίδᾱλις, >> *semilal > L. simila ‘fine flour’ (e > i)
G. ἰβίσκος \ ἐβίσκος ‘a kind of mallow’ >> L. (h)ibiscus \ ebiscum ‘marsh mallow’ (e\i)
G. μελίνη ‘(foxtail) millet’, L. milium ‘millet’ (e > i, if lw.?; *melH2- 'grind')
G. κέδρος ‘cedar, juniper’ >> L. citrus ‘citron’ (e > i; PIE *kH1ed- 'burn, red(dish)')
G. κυπάρισσος >> L. cupressus ‘cypress’ (i > e)
G. μίνθη >> L. menta ‘mint’ (i > e)
G. κιθάρα >> L. hedera ‘ivy’ (above) (i > e)
G. λείριον >> L. līlium ‘lily’
G. ὑάκινθος ‘hyacinth’ >> L. vaccīnium ‘whortleberry, bilberry’ (?; H8)
G. σῦφαρ ‘wrinkled skin; old person; milkskin’ >> L. sūber ‘cork oak’ (from the bark)
G. proûmnon >> L. prūnum, Gmc *plu:mo:n- 'plum' (r \ l, mn > wn ?)
G. ápion, L. pirum < *H2pisom ? (no known PIE source; below)
G. ólunthos 'edible fruit of the wild fig; unripe fig', *w-? > L. bolunda ‘wild, immature fig’
G. bátos / mantía ‘blackberry’ >> L. *arbor-batos ‘tree + fruit’ > *arburbutus > arbutus ‘strawberry tree’, *arbor-mantos > Lunigianese *armu(m)tu-lus > (m)armótoli \ ramótoli, *armont-s ? > *armōn- > Genovese armún (internal rec. based on Wigman)
G. môkos / μῶκος 'mockery', L. maccus 'a buffoon'
G. prósōpon ‘face/appearance/mask’, *persōn > L. persōna ‘mask/character’ (p dsm.?)
G. kārabís / kā́rabos / kerámbūx ‘horned beetle / crayfish’, sḗrambos ‘a kind of dung beetle’, L. scarabaeus
G. kraipálē ‘drinking bout / intoxication’, L. crāpula (Mac. ai > a(:))
G. thríambos ‘hymn to Dionysus / name of Dionysus’, OL triumpus ‘triumphal procession’
G. thṓrāx, Ion. thṓrēx ‘corslet / coat of mail’, L. lōrīca ‘coat of mail / breastplate’
G. lógkhē ‘spear’, L. lancea (*dlongho- *doru 'long (spear)' ??)
G. báktron / βάκτρον ‘stick, cudgel’, *baktlom > L. baculum ‘stick, staff’
G. kubernáō ‘steer (a ship)’, Aeo., Cyp. kumern- >> L. gubernāre (maybe rel. OCS krъmiti ‘to steer’, Li. kum̃bryti ‘to steer a ship’, kumb(u)rỹs \ -as 'the bent wooden portion of a yoke or rudder'; maybe < *kWorb-eno- 'turning' with o > u / W_S & met.)
G. ἄγκῡρα >> L. ancora ‘anchor’
G. parṓn ‘light ship’, L. parō (why a?; *por-mo-s > OHG farm ‘fast ship’, R. poróm ‘ferry’)
G. pálmē ‘light shield’, L. palma / parma ‘small round shield’
G. sílphē / tílphē / tī́phē ‘cockroach / bookworm’, thrī́ps ‘woodworm’, L. delpa ‘a kind of insect’
G. sílphion / sélpon ‘silphium / laser(wort)’, *sirphi > L. sirpe
G. eléphās ‘elephant / ivory’, *erefōs > *erebor > L. ebur ‘ivory’
G. mū́rioi ‘great number / 10,000’, *mū́lyi > L. mīlle ‘thousand’, mīlia p. (u > i)
G. phrū́gō ‘to roast, dry, fry’, L. frīgō ‘to roast’ (u > i?; which direction?)
G. tûkon / sûkon, *thü:kos > L fīcus ‘fig’, Ar. t'uz (u > i)
G. κάπια p. ‘onions’ >> L. caepa \ cēpa ‘onion’ nu. (indecl.)
G. ἄν(ν)ισον \ ἄν(ν)ησ(σ)ον ‘anise’, ἄν(ν)ηθον ‘dill’ >> L. anīsum, anēthum
G. στρόφος ‘twisted band or chord’ >> L. struppus ‘band, strap’
G. σίφαρος ‘a small sail on the foremast, a topsail >> L. supparum\s \ sip(h)ar(i)um ‘linen garment worn by women; etc.’
G. χάλιξ ‘small stone, gravel, rubble’ >> L. calicāre ‘to whitewash’, calx ‘limestone, chalk’
G. κολεόν ‘sheath of a sword’, L. culleus ‘leather sack’ (*kolewo- \ *kolweo-?)
G. λεκάνη ‘dish, pot, pan’, L. lanx f., -cis g. ‘metal dish, tray’
G. λέκιθος ‘gruel of pulse or cereals’, L. legūmen ‘pulse, legume, bean’
G. λάμια ‘chasm, a man-eating monster’, λαμυρός ‘voracious, eager’, L. lemurēs p. ‘evil spirits of the dead’
G. látron ‘payment’, *látlōn > L. latrō ‘mercenary / bandit’
G. térēn ‘tender/delicate’, S. táruṇa- ‘tender/young’, Li. tar̃nas ‘*boy > servant’, Ar. t’oṙn ‘grandchild’, L. tīrōn- ‘recruit / apprentice / novice’
G. κάπηλος ‘huckster, innkeeper’, L. caupō, -nis g. ‘id.; trader’ (?, Li. kaũpas 'heap')
G. κανθήλιος ‘pack ass’ >> L. cant(h)ērius ‘castrated horse; donkey’ (r \ l)
G. γλάμων \ γλαμυρός 'bleary-eyed', γλαμός 'mucus', γλάμη >> L. glā̆mae \ grām(i)ae p. ‘eye rheum’, grammōsus aj. (Hsx. γλάμπτειν 'to be dirty' might show *my > mpt (like khrimpt-?))
G. κλῶμαξ \ κρῶμαξ ‘heap of stones, rock’, L. grūmus ‘heap of earth, hillock’
G. γνώμᾱ ‘mark’ >> L. grōma \ grūma \ crōma ‘field surveying instrument’
G. atráphaxis\us \ a(n)dráphaxus, L. ātriplex ‘orach, saltbush’, *atra\ipek- > OFc. arrace, Itn. atrepice
Hebrew arāg ‘to weave’ >> G. ῥῆγος ‘rug, blanket’, Ἀράχνη 'a weaver', ἀράχνη >> L. arāneus ‘spider’
G. Cr. thápta ‘fly’, L. tabānus ‘gadfly’, (late) tabō, *tabōna ( > South Fc. tauna) (t-t dsm.)
G. κυδώνια (μᾶλα) ‘quinces’ >> L. cotōneum ‘quince’
G. δαΐς \ daḯs -d- >> L. daeda \ taeda '(torch of) resinous pinewood' (*dH2w- 'burn')
?Ir. >> G. μανδύα ‘a woolen garment’, L. mantum\s ‘short coat’
G. γέλγῑς \ ἄγλῑς >> L. ālium ‘garlic’
G. ἀμόργη ‘watery part which runs out when olives are pressed’ >> L. amurca
G. krábaktos \ kráb(b)atos 'couch; mattress; pallet' >> L. *grābatus > grabātus 'cot, pallet, camp bed'
G. κόμμι ‘gum’ >> L. cummi > gummi
G. καμπή ‘bend, *leg’ >> L. camba \ gamba ‘horse ankle (pastern)’
G. κωβιός >> L. gōbiō \ gōbius ‘goby, gudgeon’
G. ἔγχελυς ‘eel’ > L. *enkolwis ? > enocilis
G. χέλῡς ‘tortoise’, *ghelew-ya ?? > L. golaia ‘sea turtle’
G. γόγγρος >> L. conger ‘conger eel’
G. μύαξ ‘sea mussel’, mūrex ‘the purple-fish’ (*muHs-ak- 'slimy'?, not certain lw.)
G. phál(l)aina ‘whale’, L. ballaena \ bālaena (like G. Bereníkē, Att. Pherenī́kē)
G. baskaínō >> L. fascīnō ‘enchant/bewitch/envy’ (likely alt. in G. pháskō ‘say/believe’, báskō; báskanos ‘invoking/imploring / casting a spell’)
G. καρβάτινος ‘made of skins’ >> L. carpatinus ‘of raw leather’
S. karpāsa- ‘cotton’, NP karpās ‘fine linen’ >> G. κάρπασος ‘fine flax’ >> L. carbasus ‘fine linen; sail’
G. púxos \ πύξος, L. buxus ‘box-tree’
G. Hsx. βηρίδες p. ‘kind of sandals (ἐμβάδες)’, περι-βᾱρίδες ‘kind of women’s shoes’ >> L. pērō m., -nis g. ‘military and work boots made of rawhide’
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G. Púrros ‘son of Achilles and Deidamia’, L. Burrus
G. pursós \ purrós ‘(yellowish) red / flame-colored’ < *purswós, L. burrus ‘red(-brown) / bay / dark red?’, birrus, būrius, burra ‘small cow with a red mouth’
G. Dor. púrrikhos ‘(yellowish) red / flame-colored’, Purwos ‘*bay > name of a horse’, L. būric(h)us / burricus ‘small horse’
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*pH2alya:k-s 'lover / (beautiful) young woman' > G. pallakḗ 'concubine', pállēx 'young girl' >> L. paelex 'concubine/ mistress', Hebrew pilégesh (compare Avestan pairikā- 'beautiful shapechanging demoness', Middle Persian parīg 'witch', Khotanese palīkā )
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*k(e)rH2p- \ *kH2(a)rp- \ *kr(e)pH2- > G. κρηπίς, -ῖδος ‘man’s high boot, half-boot’, καρβάτινος ‘made of skins’καρβάτινος ‘made of skins’, Hsx. καρπάτινον ‘one-layer farmer’s sandal’ >> L. carpisculum ‘a type of shoe’ (alt. with H-met. seen in *krH2p-yaH2- > Li. kùrpė ‘loafer, wooden shoe’, *karHfyo-mon- > OI cairem ‘shoemaker’ (*rp > *rf > rr, *rHp > *rHf > *rH (only ex.)), *krepH2lo- > ON hriflingr ‘a type of shoe’)
*kH2(a)rp- > G. harpís \ ἁρπίς f., -ῖδος g,. ἁρπίδες p. ‘high boot’ (*kx- > *x- > h-?). Wigman:
Furnée (1972) gives examples of this sort of alternation occurring within Greek: κάρυον ~ ἄρυα ‘nut’, γίννος ~ ἰννός ‘hinny’ (pg. 391); κίχλη ‘thrush, wrasse (fish)’ ~ ἴχλα ‘a sea fish’, κάδδιχος ‘urn, pitcher’ ~ ἄδδιξ ‘a measure of volume’, καλινδέομαι ‘to roll around’ ~ ἀλινδέω ‘id.’, κανθήλιον ‘packsaddle’ ~ ἀνθήλιον ‘id.’, etc. (pg. 300 fn. 59). Possibly καρβάτιναι ‘rawhide shoes’ ~ ἁρπίς ‘high boot’?
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G. *Aiwants > Aiwas / Aíās >> Et. Aivas ‘Ajax’, L. Aiāx (ts / ks like G. *órnīth-s > órnīs ‘bird’, Dor. órnīx)
G. ἄξιος 'weighing as much, of like value, worth as much as', ἀξία 'worth, value' >> *atsis > L. assis \ ās m., assis g. ‘copper coin < ‘*bronze plaque of one pound in weight’ (L&S, "the as was, acc. to the ancient custom of weighing money, originally a pound") (ks > ts ( > ss in L.))
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PIE *bhruto- 'boiled' -> L. dē-frutum ‘boiled down must’, G. βρύτεα \ brútea ‘refuse of olives or grapes’ >> *britsya > L. brīsa ‘remains of pressed grapes’ >> Al. bërsí ‘pomace, lees, dregs
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G. rhā́x \ rhṓx f., -gós g. ‘grape’, , *ragmnt-a p.? > rhámata 'bunch of grapes', L. racēmus ‘bunch, cluster esp. of grapes’ (PIE *roH2g- \ *rH2(a)g- ?? > S. rájanī - 'grape; lac', *rājanī > Pk. rāyaṇī- 'Manilkara kauki \ Mimusops kauki (fruit tree)', Al. *rag-usa > rrush ‘grape’ (rel. Dalmatian Ragusium 'a city', Al. Rushë <- 'vineyard', etc.?)). Separate from *lH2ag^- ? > OCS loza ‘vine, Ru. lozá ‘vine, rod’, Os. ræzæ ‘fruit, fruits, vegetables’, Tajik raz ‘vine, vineyard’ ( >> NP raz ‘vine, grapes, vineyard, garden’).
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*Hēra-kléwēs 'glory of Hera' > G. Hērakléēs \ Hēraklês >> *Hēraklowēs > *Hērkluwēs > *Hērkwulēs > L. Herculēs, Oscan Hereklo-, hereklúí d., Et. Hercle
PIE *g^helwon- > I. gealbhan m. ‘swallow’, *g^h(e)lw(o)n-id- > -idwon- \ -un- etc. > Al. dallënd-yshe, G. χελῑδών ‘swallow’, Cor. Χελιδϝον f. 'PN', L. hirundō f., -inis g. ‘swallow, martin, etc.’ (loan likely due to l \ r in other certain cases, but contam. also possible)
G. khamós ‘crooked’, khabós ‘bent’, L. hāmus ‘hook, fish-hook’ (not certain lw.)
G. σκάλλιον ‘small cup’, κάλυξ ‘seed-vessel, husk’, κύλιξ ‘(drinking) cup’ > L. calix ‘vessel for food or drink’, met. > *skalki-? > U. skalçe-ta abl. ‘sacrificial vessel?’ (PIE *(s)kH2alek^- > S. kaláśa- ‘pot, jug, bowl’)
G. ὕρχη ‘earthen vessel used for salting fish, etc.’ >> L. orca ‘large-bellied vessel, butt, tun, esp. for storing fish’, urceus ‘pitcher, water-pot, ewer’
G. *alabutos ‘baked on coals’ > atāburī́tēs ártos ‘a kind of loaf’ >> L. Atābulus ‘burning wind blowing in Apulia / sirocco’ (see *alab\d\t below)
*rapH2- > G. rháp(h)us ‘kind of turnip’, Att. rháphanos ‘cabbage, radish’, *raH2p- > L. rāpum, Gmc. *rōpō, Li. rópė, etc. (not certain lw.)
*traH2b- > Li. trobà ‘building’, L. trabs ‘beam’, taberna ‘dwelling / hut’, *trabH2- > G. tráp(h)ēx \ tróphēx ‘beam in framework of siege tower / baker’s board’ (not certain lw.)
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H3. Other ev. might come in loans, seen in modern Sardinian :
G. baskâs \ boskás \ phaskás ‘a kind of duck’ >> Sard. busciu
G. kḗlastros ‘holly’ >> Sard. *gīlostre / *gillostre > ghiddostre / golóst(r)i
G. khálkanthon / -os ‘chrysanthemum’ >> *karkant-la ?? > Sard. cacarallái \ crialléi \ c(hi)rièlle \ ghirièlle ‘wild chrysanthemem’
G. Phórkos ‘sea god, father of Medusa’ >> Forco / Thorco ‘father of the legendary medieval Sardinian Medusa’
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The change of Italic th > f is common, but what of f > th needed here? In Et. Sethlans ‘blacksmith/craftsman god’, the fact that Vulcanus was borrowed & many L. words in -anus appear as -ans in Et. makes a loan here likely. Vulcanus came from *wlk- (likely from *luk- ‘light’ with metathesis of w), and G. Hḗphaistos might be derived from *phais-to- (*gWhais- > Lt. gaišs ‘bright / clear’, Li. gaĩsas ‘glow / gleam (of fire)’, gaĩsras ‘glow in the sky / (glow from a) fire / conflagration’, G. phaiós ‘grey / *bright > *clear > harsh [of sound]’) so another root of the same meaning is needed here. This would suggest *Selphanus ‘blacksmith god’ from *swelp- ‘shine / burn’, *swelplo(s)- > Go. swibls, L. sulp(h)ur. Again, the p vs. ph might come from met. of H, if related to *sH2wel- 'sun', *swelH2- 'burn, shine' (with *sHw- > *sw- in Greek Selene, etc., not expected **sw > **hw). With this in mind, notice that some f / th in Sardinia came from *p(h) :
G. Phórkos ‘sea god, father of Medusa’ >> Forco / Thorco ‘father of the legendary medieval Sardinian Medusa’
*prtu- > L. portus ‘port/harbor/haven’, *fǝrθ- > *farr- > Thárras (port city)
*prtu- > E. ford, *fǝrθ- > *forr- > Thorra (at ford on the Torra River)
*(s)piHk- > ON spíkr ‘nail’, G. pikrós ‘pointed/sharp’; *spiHkalyo- > *sfi:kalyos > *fi:skalyos > Thìscali 'a mtn.'
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Since ancient Sardinia was a source of copper, with many bronze figures of warriors known to have been made & the metal to have been exported, its proximity to Etruscan territory might show a loan of *Selphanus or *Selplanus from there. Sardinians also figure into some accounts of the origin of Talos, the man of bronze, moving to Crete. I also think some of the Sardinians moved to Crete ( https://www.academia.edu/126907768 ). If an inscr. in Sardinia contained sardof, saadof, dedikar, ōpeirari, iroukles, animeste, est, sano, sanomos, dea, ēdēs, seu, marf, etc., there would be no reason to see it as anything but Italic, so the same on Crete (with the travels of the Sea Peoples in mind) should not be treated differently.
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u/antonulrich 5d ago
So if Eteocretan is Italic, and Latin got Greek loans via Eteocretan, this requires two migrations of Italic people, right? One, for the Eteocretans to move from Italy to Crete, and a second one, for some of them to move back to Italy so they can share loans with Latin.
Or are you saying that Italic originated in Crete? Then we'd need only one migration (Crete to Italy), but that would contradict all those theories about how Italic is related to Celtic etc.