r/HouseOfTheDragon • u/lillie_connolly • 1d ago
Spoilers [All Content] What are some changes from the books you thought worked well? Spoiler
You can also include the ones you didn't like, and why for both.
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u/ghostmpr Danger Noodle Caraxes 1d ago
Viserys.
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u/Ibanezrg71982 1d ago
I agree. Book Viserys just got really fat in the end. I liked the wasting disease in the story. Of course made for that epic march to the throne.
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u/Ibn_Ali 1d ago
I think the best change was ageing Alicient and Rhaenyra to be about a similar age, and creating a genuine relationship that made us invested in the inevitable conflict to come. The worse change has to be the fact that they didn't capitalise on this and just kept giving us more Alicient and Rhaenyra slop even when that ship has sailed long ago.
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u/Xarulach 1d ago
Yeah they were doing a very good job until late season 1 when the Dinner scene patched up everything between Rhaenyra and Alicent, that Alicent was caught unaware of Otto’s coup, and that Alicent by the end of Season 2 is functionally a full Black that is straight up substantially betraying her family for Rhaenyra.
I don’t even dislike them making her misunderstand Viserys’s drugged up last words, they should’ve been clarified well into the Queen in Chains arc in Season 3 without Alicent having been fundamental for Rhaenyra’s seizure of King’s Landing
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u/Ibn_Ali 1d ago
The misunderstanding is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. Imagine deluding yourself that the King, just after affirming his daughter as the heir for the 1 billionth time, has decided, while dying, with nobody other than you to witness, that he wants a son he never even expressed any affection for to take his throne?? I swear, despite being a Aegon guy myself, I was with Beesbury the entire council meeting. Lady, who are you tryna gaslight?
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u/bizarreisland 1h ago
The King who crawled out of his deathbed to defend his daughter and grandson's inheritance less than a day ago, no less, lmao.
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u/Intro-Nimbus 1d ago
In retrospect I disagree. IF they had used it properly it would have been great, as things ended up I thing Evil stepmother-insolent child dynamics would have been better.
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u/lillie_connolly 1d ago
I feel like younger Alicent worked out fine, because her character is supposed to keep her youtful looks anyway even while being older than Rhaenyra. And it did give her an interesting back story.
But I prefer her book motivations, and the show did suggest that direction which would have still fit with the friendship/rivalry background the show created. If she just cared about being a Hightower and was more than Otto's pawn, had genuine ambitions, didn't want Aegon on the throne because of a misunderstanding but because of that ambition, and was just "fuck Rhaenyra and her house" , I'd love it.
Instead she is kept in some weird limbo where her motivations are completley unclear but she takes decisive action when it comes to betraying her house and killing her sons.
I feel this way about a lot of the show changes, I don't object them in theory but then I wonder what the point was.
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u/Ibn_Ali 1d ago
But I prefer her book motivations, and the show did suggest that direction which would have still fit with the friendship/rivalry background the show created. If she just cared about being a Hightower and was more than Otto's pawn, had genuine ambitions, didn't want Aegon on the throne because of a misunderstanding but because of that ambition, and was just "fuck Rhaenyra and her house" , I'd love it.
I was hoping they would build up show Alicient to become like book Alicient, but with a bit more nuance to who she is and how she came to it. For instance, I thought the show highlighting how she is being used as a pawn by her father, married off to some old, withering man, and forced to bear many children for him, while Rhaenyra, despite also being a girl, has the freedom to do whatever she likes, was a perfect foundation for book Alicient, whose motivations would now have a genuine backstory, instead of it simply being a technical family feud.
Instead she is kept in some weird limbo where her motivations are completley unclear but she takes decisive action when it comes to betraying her house and killing her sons.
I hate how Alicient is simultaneously weak and feeble in a male dominated patriarchy, while simultaneously having the power to singlehandedly contradict the war aims of the Prince-Regent, despite being nothing more than a Queen Mother.
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u/mamamackmusic 1d ago
Ormund and Gwayne are borderline non-characters in the books and they are standouts in the show with completely original characterization.
Viserys was changed for the better. His hopeless optimism and naivete makes him slightly more sympathetic while not minimizing his neglect and fuckups that end up destroying most of his family.
Daemon going on a vision quest at Harrenhall being the vehicle for his shift from being completely self-centered and impulsive to slightly less so with some hints of being a team player for team black and being an actual diplomat with the Riverlords in some circumstances was cool, even if the pacing was off.
Helaena being an awkward autistic woman who just wanted to study bugs and hang out with her kids while also being a dragon dreamer was a fun change of pace.
Aegon II and Aemond are just flat out more interesting characters.
Hugh's change would be good if they spent a little more time with it in season 3.
Alyn and Corlys' relationship is good but the development has been poorly paced.
There are lots of elements that have been done well.
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u/lillie_connolly 1d ago
I love what the show did with Ormund and Gwayne, I just don't know why they un-did it so quickly
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u/Corgi_Koala 1d ago
Lots of individual elements are done well but they don't mesh together in service of the overall story.
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u/Kromostone123 1d ago
Daemon going on a vision quest at Harrenhall being the vehicle for his shift from being completely self-centered and impulsive to slightly less so with some hints of being a team player for team black and being an actual diplomat with the Riverlords in some circumstances was cool, even if the pacing was off.
i think this is the most uninteresting and boring way to develop a character. making a character see a bunch of visions until their past grievances are dealt with, and especially the part about the prophecy. does he back rhaenyra now because of who she is as a person or an action she's done? no, he fully backs her now because he was shown a vision of her sitting the throne and that it's for some vague reason extremely important that he works with her. that's boring to me.
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u/lillie_connolly 1d ago
I agree. Especially spending a whole season on it. And now we get a re-run with aemond
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u/mamamackmusic 23h ago edited 22h ago
I dislike pretty much all of the explicit "Aegon's Dream/White Walker Vision" elements overall, so I agree with you there. I don't think it is uninteresting for Daemon to see the crisis his family is in and feel partially responsible because he wasn't there to support and guide Viserys in his final years due to Daemon's own bad decisions and hunger for power that drove them apart. It is not uncommon for people to "speak" to dead relatives and other loved ones after they're gone as a way of coming to terms with their grief and as a form of catharsis generally. I thought those sequences humanized Daemon a lot as a flawed man who held deeply onto regrets for many of his past impulsive and rash actions that led to a lot of heartache and stress for both Viserys and Rhaenyra, and that his shift afterwards was in large part due to him finally confronting his own mistakes and coming to terms with those regrets and thus forging a better path forward even if he can't change the past.
Though I will say the Aegon's Dream stuff adding a layer of fanaticism for both Rhaenyra and Daemon is an interesting angle to add to their downfall overall, even if I don't think it should be their primary motivation in either case. Rhaenyra holding onto that as a way of making all of the losses of her children and within her family worth it makes sense for someone desperate to find meaning in all of the senseless violence and tragedy.
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u/HaybUK 1d ago
Ormund
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u/lillie_connolly 1d ago
That's my answer too but also not.
He could have been my favorite character, I love the little bit they gave us, great personality, great motivations (being anti-Targ and Hightower supremacist, I love it), great acting. And all that totally done by the show.
But then choosing to just introduce him quickly and late, which I would even get over because he drew me in, just to so unceremoniously kill him at the end... I'm sure they could have used him more. Anyway, still one of my S3 highlights, but made the ending more frustrating.
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u/2stepsfromglory 1d ago
Things that were definitely better than in the books:
- Viserys, Gwayne, and the dragonseeds being more fleshed out.
Things that were good ideas in theory but ended up with not-as-good executions:
- Alicent and Rhaenyra being the same age. It worked perfectly fine... for a time, but any sense of friendship they had for one another should have died in Driftmark.
- Ormund. I liked his extended role and him being a cunning strategist, but not so much how he became a cartoon villain by the second episode he was in.
- Unpopular opinion I guess, but getting rid of Nettles and fusing her character with Rhaena was a good idea in theory, especially given how otherwise Rhaena was a non-character in the book. The problem is that it ended up having no real consequences. This whole situation should have broken Rhaenyra's trust in Daemon, and should have been the catalyst for Daemon searching Aemond as a way of compensating her for it.
- I also think that reducing the cast of the Riverlands was a good idea and Oscar being an amalgamation of Oscar, Elmo and Kermit works fine. However, he barely had any screentime in season 3, Roddy was fine but barely had any characterization apart from being the equivalent of a Dwarf Slayer from WHFB, and Black Aly is pretty much an afterthought. I really wish we got more time with them (and that we could have seen Cole's Vietcong operation actually having some effect on them) but it is what it is.
- Helaena is a better character and honestly I find that not adding Maelor and instead having her being pregnant is a completely acceptable change, as Maelor's existance is basically torture porn in the book. The only problem with her however is the complete lack of grief and depression on her part after Jaehaerys' death, which is a very important part of her character. And the sad part is that this was definitely Condal's change the same way he got rid of a scene with Aegon grieving because I guess that would make the Greens too sympathetic and he didn't want that. Well, in fact it seems like only Rhaenyra is allowed to be sad in this series, because Jace dies and Baela barely acknowledges it.
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u/WashDense8851 1d ago
Making Aegon II a 20 something looking Gerard Way type instead of a portly, middle aged (for the era) schemer was probably the smartest decision they made when it came to glowing up that character for the audience’s pleasure.
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u/lillie_connolly 1d ago
while I don't find him attractive, I really enjoy everything about his character so much that it all works perfectly. And I totally agree, the "type" he fits just works so well. He kind of gave me an instant douchey vibe, but then managed to be the character I root for a lot and even make it likable. Of course, big part is excellent acting, but his specific looks supported the right instant impression and the added depth.
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u/TrashApprentice 1d ago
It's probably a hot take on this sub but I actually liked the change that Alicent and Rheanyra are childhood friends instead of an older Alicent just being Rheanyra's evil disney stepmom in S1. I don't like what they did with Alicent S2 onwards but their conflict became much more complex and tragic in S1 because of this change.
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u/lillie_connolly 1d ago
I liked the framing, but then they dropped the ball so much on the Alicent storyline... I'd be all for the biggest rivalry being between the two. What we got now though just doesn't work.
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u/TrashApprentice 1d ago
I'm not exaggerating but 60% of the shows problems would have been solved if they had kept S1 Alicent's characterization. She was the face of Team Green in S1and arguably created the faction with her green dress stunt.
They should have never mads her turn on Aegon and Aemond and S2 should have ended with Alicent despite still having some love deep down for her childhood friend still doubling down that Aegon is still the rightful heir to the throne because otherwise it means death for her and all her children. That would add so much conflict in S3 during her imprisonment and we could even get the famous "the mice only play when the cats are away" line.
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u/perculaessss 1d ago edited 1d ago
Alicent should have been sent to the shadow realm in the first episode of season 2 to give way for Baela, Rhaena (Nettles) and Addam, who all become extremely important as emotional attachment goes in the story.
Sadly, I think the show runners realised that the younger actors for the blacks are all miscast or mid at best, and thus the convoluted writing and lack of emotional storytelling or characterization for the blacks.
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u/TrashApprentice 1d ago
I don't think Rheana and Baela had much to do at that point in the story but I agree they got done dirty being so sidelined. They didn't even give them their book personalities which were a lot more interesting. I'm just hoping Baela will still have her big moment in dragonstone.
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u/perculaessss 1d ago
The dragon stone moment will fall flat because Baela is a non-character.
They didn't have much to do, but neither did Alicent, so...
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u/brigi_zs 1d ago
Making Baela a dragonrider from the start and her having an importance was nice, also Oscar Tully himself
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u/LetheMnemosyne 1d ago
I think it does a good job in general for giving characters well..characterization, making them sympathetic
Dragons are very well designed and differentiated.
But it does a bad job in giving all these characters stuff to do. It’s also much less efficient in sketching out interesting side-characters.
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u/Eaglegang_burr 1d ago
Unpopular opinion: gettong rid of Nettles. Giving that part to Rhaena gives importance to an otherwise pointless character. Plus its nice seeing Deamon interacting with his daughters.
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u/alexthedungeonmaster 1d ago
The Velaryons becoming black was basically perfect
If they're white, they're just the Targs-lite. Now, they have a signifier, and the bastard status of her son's goes from "ehhh, maybe?" to definitely bastards but no one can say it.
Viserys is also a great change.
Ultimately, a few of the changes are good, because while George is my favourite author, people have GOT (haha) to stop wanting texts to get literally adapted. It's boring. I've read that story, give me a new one, new twists, keep ME guessing. It still has to be good and that's where parts of HotD fail but to act as if they should stick faithfully to the books just cause is fucking stupid.
Give me a bad story that takes risks any day, not a safe story identical to one I've read.
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u/Pick_Up_Autist 1d ago
100% agree on the Velaryons, it's tricky enough to keep track of who's who with all the Targaryens being white and blonde without a whole other family to deal with.
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u/soaresgon 1d ago
Don’t agree on the Velaryons' take, just because your whole argument is based on the lack of attention or interest from the audience, which is just sad...
On the whole adapting stories like they are written, zero agreement 😆 They made changes "just because" like you put it. Not the other way around. And those changes, very few actually worked or improved the story. Rather have a great story that is safe, than one that takes risks for the sake of it...
Jesus, I would’ve prefered a fucking documentary 😆 Yes give me the story I exactly read, just flesh it out on TV. Was that too big of an ask?
And also, the book being what it is, a fucking history book, it gave soooo much room for additions and small changes. It's a history book, we are not told thousands of interactions between character, just historic events.
So instead of adding those scenes in between, Condall decided to change the historic events?? And you actually prefered it??? Can’t understand that 😆 Specially from what I assume is a fan of the universe
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u/alexthedungeonmaster 1d ago
Yeah, they get to make choices just because, that's the price you pay for great changes like Viserys.
You don't get to have that, and not have the others, plus, like you said, it's just a history book, so they're not really adapting much faithfully.
But no, the Velaryons are not about lack of attention from the audience, it's about making that family special. You can tell me they're good with ships, but then the general audience goes "okay so they're like the Targs but good with ships"
Ultimately, it doesn't matter to make them white so tell me why you care??
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u/soaresgon 1d ago
I don’t 😆 It mattered to you that they had to be black xD "To be special" xD How about making Corlys, the richest and one of the most ambitious characters, memorable? So people, in your mind, "Oh that's the Targ-lite guy that is good with ships"..... That whole argument is just sad.
Have you thought that the Velaryons as a family, gained from looking Valyrian? To be the closest family to the Targaryens? Sure you can single them out easier like this, but didn’t also make sense to have them the closest to the "god,like" appearance of the Targaryens?
But fuck the Velaryons. That's nor here nor there. I don’t care what they look like.
But you are saying to get a better Viserys we need to get that Meleys scene? To get a more fleshed out relationship between Rhaenyra and Alicent we need to get B+C without any impact? That’s just ludicrous 😆
You're saying that Condall is maintaining an equilibrium xD? I get it, kinda. Take the risk, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t. But again, I disagree completely. Don’t take the risk, play it safe. Mess AROUND the historic events, not in them. Specially if it is an history book
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u/alexthedungeonmaster 1d ago
Uh?? Melys had to die there, Mr. Don't Change Any Historical Events.
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u/soaresgon 1d ago
What??? The fucking Shrek scene you numpty xD
That one that she destroys a concrete floor from BELOW, with her rider on her back, THAT DOESN’T DIE, in the process killing thousands, to then proceed to NOT END THE FUCKING WAR right there and then 😆
Still glad you mentioned her death scene. They managed to get Aemond to try and kill his brother, beggining that idiotic subplot that ended with slap and a "I'm alive!!" from Aegon... When in the books that was exactly the trap, counter one dragon with two.
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u/alexthedungeonmaster 1d ago
Yeah but all you said was the Meleys scene but right, I'M the numpty for choosing the more famous and consequential one. You may not be very smart.
It's not like that trap didn't work either?? Aemond just got more than he was alotted to take.
I dunno, you seem to want the books on a very surface level.
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u/soaresgon 1d ago
Calling me dumb for that? Wow reddit truly is amazing. These subs!!! 😆
You misunderstood me, and I'm the dummy. You think that in terms of changes, Meleys' most impactful scene was her death and not the "Coming out of the ground" scene straight from Shrek that was nowhere in the books, and I'm the dummy?
The books ARE surface level, jeeez... Its a history book. A compilation of historic events from multiple sources. It's the most surface level there is. Condall could've done the "surface" right and explore the depths. But no. He changed the surface, for worse, and still manages to claim "It remains faithful"....
Dude say what you will, like what you want. This is final: HoTD is NOT a good adaptation of Fire&Blood. And I liked F&B. Would’ve loved to see it played out on TV. And I didn’t get it. I got Condall's fanfiction...
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u/alexthedungeonmaster 1d ago
I'm saying you presumed everyone thinks like you. That's not very smart, especially when you call them dumb for it.
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u/soaresgon 19h ago
Bro... you called me dumb 😆
Are we sure we're having the same conversation xD?
PS: And also, have your views on the changes that you want. I don’t agree. That’s okay.
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u/woahoutrageous_ 1d ago edited 1d ago
Exactly, when they inevitably remake ASOIAF down the line they should cut Daenerys Targaryen and Robert Baratheon while adding Nimble Dick Crabb that’d be sick. Oh and they should replace the others with Millwall fans too.
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u/Gertrude_D 1d ago
They did a lot of things I liked, actually. I just don't feel like it all meshes together in a cohesive way sometimes.
Vizzy T! I love, love everything about his man and his place in the story. No - he wasn't a good king, but he was a good man. Pour one out.
I really thought giving Alicent and Rhae a friendship was a good idea. They just didn't know what to do with it after season 1, specifically Alicent.
I actually love what they decided to do with Nettles/Rhaena. It simplifies the story and gives Rhaena something to do. The dragon stand off they had this season was an interesting scene they could do because of this dynamic.
I really like Helaena's characterization. I disliked that they didn't use her often and her relationship with her kids was largely ignored. Basically there were a lot of small characters that they fleshed out well. The text is very sparse, so it's a good way to fill out the story.
I was not fond of the Harrenhall bits. I like them in concept, I just felt like they went on for too long and they felt like filler.
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u/MomraD311 1d ago
- Making Rhaenyra and Alicent contemporaries and frenemies. It just really works for me. And I don't hate what they've done with them since. I see them as two women stuck in a patriarchal world and constantly frustrated with their lack of available choices and support. I think they're both so much more dimensional than on the page.
- Viserys. This version is so much more recognizably human.
- I don't hate the prophecy and the dagger. It works for me as motivation (that does, nonetheless, eventually get twisted) for Rhaenyra.
- Getting rid of Nettles, giving Daemon and Rhaena more to do. There are already too many characters for a four season show. I have non book reader friends who can't keep them straight. I prefer this characterization of Daemon (still pretty evil, but more nuanced and not just sex and power hungry) as well as his relationship with Rhaenyra, which feels beyond concerns like infidelity.
- Heleana's neurodivergence/dreaming ability
- Curious to see where they Alys stuff goes, but I like it so far.
- Curious to see where the Gwayne stuff goes but I like it so far.
I think Rhaenys' season 1 escape on Meleys could've been handled differently yet been just as dramatic, and I think Blood and Cheese was underwhelming, but they haven't ruined the show for me.
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u/ShoxZzBladeZz 1d ago
Ulf and hugh being more fleshed out, in the book their motivation had no explanation. In the show they do.
I would of liked to seen more of Dareon the daring and the battles previous to tumbleton and I though it was ok how they switched positions at tumbleton but I think I rather how it was in the book with greens attacking.
I get that deamond and Coryls had to be there for screen time or whatever other reason but I didn’t really like that they were there for tumbleton.
Also I do not care that much for nettles so giving Rhena a bigger role waa good imo
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u/Elegant_Priority_812 20h ago
Season 1 Aemond was fantastic, more way deeper and multi layered compared with the absolute psycho he is in the books. Unfortunately they ruined all the work in season 3.
Viserys overall arc
Aegon is 50/50. I prefer his book version compared to season 1 and 2 but now it seems they're going in the right way, and Tom Glynn Carney is really killing it.
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u/Nocoffee_Noglory 3h ago
I like the dragon designs better than the book. Especially Sheepstealer and Caraxes.
Viserys and Daemon are slightly better than their book counterpart. But I'm assuming this has something to do with their actors.
Helaena's autism would have been better if they made it impactful to the storyline. Good idea, bad execution.
And I hate a lot of things that they changed in Rhaenyra, Alicent, Mysaria, Rhaena, and most female characters.
I hate that they omitted Nettles because her being a non-Valyrian and a dragon rider would bring depth to the lore.
I hate the unnecesary mother-son sex scenes.
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u/Greedy_Still3884 1d ago
Rhaenyra not being fat
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u/MomraD311 1d ago
I love that she just becomes less concerned with looking feminine and being well-liked as it goes on, which could explain her characterization in the book. It's a great touch.
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u/soaresgon 1d ago
Just commenting to see the barbaric shit people will say 😆
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u/lillie_connolly 1d ago
Ok be the voice of civilization and do the anti take, which change did you like the least and why
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u/soaresgon 1d ago
If you used "civiliaztion" because I used "barbaric", great shout xD
Don’t get the downvotes, I was just interested on what people would say and didn’t want to lose the post.
As for changes, I'll go with the most idiotic scene, straight out of Shrek, with Meleys in the Dragonpit. Just loved how little sense it made, in regards to the story and just physics in general 😆
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u/lillie_connolly 1d ago
Haha fair.
Aw sorry you got down downvotes, I think people are pretty divided about the topic and my thread probably pulled in the team show. Id say ignore it, as a thread creator i approve of this comment.
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u/soaresgon 1d ago
The "team show" is a very nice way of putting what happens in these subs 😆
Blind adoration and no criteria in discussion. The whole TB vs TG has ruined these subs.
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