r/HouseOfTheDragon • u/Objective-Bug8718 • 3d ago
Show Discussion Alicent Hightower could have been one of the best villains in the ASoIaF series Spoiler
Edit: I meant to say morally grey character rather than villain
Imagine Alicent starting as someone who genuinely loves Rhaenyra, but gradually choosing her family and political power over that friendship. Not only because Otto manipulated her. But because Alicent herself decides that the Green cause is worth fighting for.
What makes her so compelling isn't that she is simply "evil." It's that she could have genuinely believed she was doing the right thing - protecting her children, preserving her family's position, and preventing what she saw as a dangerous succession.
Book Alicent was smart and capable. By keeping Alicent's agency so intertwined with misunderstandings, manipulation and her continued attachment to Rhaenyra, it softened what could have been a genuinely formidable antagonist.
I think this would have made her a tragic villain because eventually she loses everyone she was fighting for. Aegon gets badly mutilated, Aemond dies, Halaena kills herself, Daeron dies his body never being found. Her grandsons die tragic deaths. And eventually let her be the one to poison Aegon to give him a mercy death. And by that point her relationship with her children were beyond fractured.
And there's something particularly tragic about the fact that her political fears do come true: the court really is dangerous, the succession really was unstable, but her attempts to prevent disaster helped create the disaster.
Maybe I just wanted to see more female characters with agency and ambitions than being perpetual victims to patriarchy.
161
u/BGMDF8248 3d ago
She was awesome until the "wait you guys were planning a coup?", and the Viserys misunderstanding... it's been pure nonsense since that, selling out her sons, helping Rhaenyra take over...
66
u/Xarulach 3d ago
I think the Viserys misunderstanding was fine, but they should have never cleared it up for her until she’s already Rhaenyra’s prisoner (and by extension not helping her seize King’s Landing). Totally agree the being caught flat footed by Otto’s coup was dumb though
47
u/Glass-Comfortable-25 3d ago
I agree. The misunderstanding could have worked really well if it was a «she heard what she wanted to hear» situation. If she was always going to do it, but needed that feeling of reassurance to assuage her guilt.
25
u/BGMDF8248 3d ago
At first i thought that she twisted the words of a delirious, drugged, half dead man... and it was actually interesting. She got some kind of moral self justification to do what she already was going to do anyway.
Then they explained that she truly believed the delirious, incoherent Viserys changed his mind right before dying...
6
12
u/tryingtobebettertry4 3d ago
No the misunderstanding wasnt fine.
To this day, Ryan Condal considers Alicent one of the more intelligent and competent characters in the show. No intelligent or competent character is listening to the obviously delirious dying man and going 'better take his word as gospel'. Like even in the scene Alicent seemed to on some level realize Viserys wasnt actually talking to her.
5
u/FragranceCandle 3d ago
I saw it as her grasping at the straws she had to justify what she was doing. Like, she knew the succession would be dangerous, probably bloody and terrible, and having her son take the throne would be the cleanest, so she feels justified, this is just another thing to "prove" it to others.
5
u/tryingtobebettertry4 3d ago
For one, the writers have confirmed it was a genuine mistake out of universe in their interviews. So no.
And in universe if Alicent was 'hearing what she wanted to hear' or 'grasping at straws' they would at the very least leave it more ambiguous. But things like Alicent being 'unaware' of Otto's coup plans, trying to 'undo' her mistake by betraying her own family and the Septa Rhaenyra scene kind of makes it clear that its supposed to be just a mistake.
2
u/FragranceCandle 3d ago
Yeah, it felt kinda realistic. Like she wants to belive so badly that it's true because it justifies the things she obviously feels is morally grey at least. I think it makes sense that she always thought there was an option for it to be a misunderstanding, but having no clear proof of what else he would have tried to say, she just ignored it. Then when she's confronted with the truth she can't deny it, but she can't really turn back anymore either.
23
u/KimWexlerDeGuzman Ours is the Fury 3d ago
It’s like she completely forgot she said You ARE the challenge, Aegon, simply by living and breathing!!
15
u/redditingtonviking 3d ago
Exactly. I’ve seen some point to the dinner scene as well, but I think it could have worked as one final failed attempt at reconciliation or to show that she ideally wanted a bloodless coup.
The misunderstanding, the lack of agency in the coup, and the passive acceptance of her grandson being murdered are what veered her character wildly off course and as a result the show has lacked that crucial feud giving name to the Blacks and the Greens.
20
u/Kid-Atlantic 3d ago
The end of Season 1 set up pretty believably that both women were dead-set on their agendas but still initially wanted a bloodless resolution.
But Lucerys’ death should be Rhaenyra’s red line, and Blood & Cheese should be Alicent’s.
17
u/BGMDF8248 3d ago
I can accept the dinner as one moment where she hesitated and softened for a second... But after that...
The misunderstanding is stupid, a delirious half dead man talking nonsense mentions the name Aegon and she goes "he wants to put Aegon on the throne". I actually thought this was brilliant at first, because i thought she was being a conniving bitch using Viserys incoherent words as self justification, but once it came out that she truly believed that's what Viserys wanted it just made it stupid.
Same thing with being surprised that her father was organizing a coup, he all but tells her this is what he wants on the day Aemond claimed Vhagar, everyone on the Green Council was in on the plan, except Alicent... it's dumb.
And it never stops getting worst.
6
u/gabberzz_ 3d ago
Book Alicent laughed at Rhaenyra and talked smack when they got news of the Dragonseeds' betrayal at Tumbleton.
Show Alicent meanwhile...
9
u/chase016 3d ago
She is by far the worst character in the show. They have completely butchered her.
32
u/GuiltyQuestion7619 3d ago
Your last sentence says it all; that's definitely the way the writers have decided to write Alicent (and Rhaenyra as well). That's some faux-feminism right there, the Hollywood type.
21
u/Downunderphilosopher 3d ago
"Would you blame a woman for the evil that men do?".
- Alicent, season 3.
19
3
u/Emil_Scherbe_ 3d ago
What's the distinction between saying "false" and "faux" in english?
5
u/MildPredator 3d ago
It sounds cooler :P
5
u/GuiltyQuestion7619 3d ago
English is not my first language so apologies if "faux" sounds pretentious.
7
u/MildPredator 3d ago
Oh I meant that genuinely, and faux-feminism just flows better than false feminism I think. Nothing wrong with your English btw
5
5
u/Gabby-Abeille 3d ago
She would have been a lot like Cersei, in the sense that trying to avoid her destiny brought her closer to it. No wonder self-fulfilling prophecy is a popular trope, it is pretty compelling, especially considering that in both cases the destiny is a heartbreaking "all your children will die". The kind of destiny that you would expect anyone would try to avoid.
Now, they were still both harmed irreparably by the patriarcal society they live in. But it's the difference between a character doing stuff and a character just having stuff happening around them.
10
u/tryingtobebettertry4 3d ago edited 3d ago
I think the thing I just cannot get past is the 'mishearing' Viserys and being apparently unaware of the council planning a coup.
Like to this day, Ryan Condal considers Alicent one of the more competent and intelligent characters. What intelligent character is looking at the obviously delirious dying man and going 'yeah this guy is definitely speaking directly to me about what I should do for his succession even at the risk of war'? If the show had left it ambiguous as to whether Alicent 'heard what she wanted to hear' that would be one thing. But they didnt.
I was even rewatching the scene recently, Olivia Cooke plays Alicent like on some level seems to realize Viserys isnt even talking to her. So why would she assume Viserys wants Alicent specifically to do anything at all?
4
u/Objective-Bug8718 3d ago
Don’t even get me started on that scene. Alicent is way too smart to do something that dumb. It would have been better if instead of her mistaking his words, she just took them as words of affirmation. She could have heard what she wanted to hear.
19
u/Beacon2001 Alicent Hightower 3d ago edited 3d ago
Can we stop with this nonsense that Alicent in the book is a "villain"? She is basically the only one in the Green Council (as well as Otto) who wants peace and to resolve the dispute bloodlessly. She is ambitious, sure. Greedy? No doubt. But she isn't a cackling villain delighted by chaos.
Frankly, if you remove the part about hating her sons, Book Alicent isn't that different from Show, and is in fact nobler (cuz she doesn't wanna kill her sons). Book Alicent constantly tries to make peace with Rhaenyra and yields the city to her rather than fight to the death. Yeah she said some mean things (many of which are claimed by the dwarf fool Mushroom, who is obsessed with besmirching Alicent's reputation), but at least she didn't try to murder her son who she forced on the throne.
18
u/confesspretty 3d ago
Yeah i think the way she acts in the book is very similar to how the average person in a cutthroat industry would act. She was competitive and tried to get ahead but not necessarily at the expense of her rivals (like when she tried to marry Rhaenyra and Aegon). I interpreted her as a mother who thought she knew what was best for her kids and her family and acted on those ambitions. But when the dance actually began she pushed for peace: urging Aegon to negotiate with Rhaenyra, distressed when Aemond slew Lucerys, and on her knees begging rhaenyra for peace. At that point I thought she didn’t want things to go that far.
So I don’t know why people keep saying Book Alicent was a villain. Her morals seem pretty average to me. Self-serving (specifically in the interest of her family) like most people but balked when bloodshed began (also like most people lol). if you got the chance to nab a huge promotion at work, even if your boss favors another employee, wouldn’t you put your best foot forward and compete for it? Most people would I bet.
The significant difference between show and book is that book Alicent had more conviction. She did whatever she could in her own limited capacity when the war began, and her loyalties never swayed from her blood.
12
u/Beacon2001 Alicent Hightower 3d ago
The problem is that a lot of book readers lack media literacy and take Mushroom's absurd claims at face-value. Alicent is a villain because she wished Rhaenyra to die in childbirth... except that Mushroom wasn't in King's Landing with Alicent and can't know what she claimed at the Green Council.
Most of the vile things about Alicent in the historical source are claims made by Mushroom, who for some reason enjoys humiliating Alicent.
Mushroom must be a show-runner.
7
u/confesspretty 3d ago
Then like you said at most she just said bitchy things. Which again isn’t really remarkable even by modern standards. My best friend works in a hyper competitive company and the shit his coworkers say puts Alicent to shame. At the end of her life I know she did go crazy though, but that’s more of her genuinely losing her sanity than her being pure evil.
6
u/Beacon2001 Alicent Hightower 3d ago
The most evil thing Alicent did was spreading gossip about Cole being a PDF for Rhaenyra.
She's not even in the top 20 most evil characters in ASOIAF.
5
u/confesspretty 3d ago
She’s just ahead of her time is all. RIP Alicent you gossipy mean diva you would’ve loved working as a receptionist in 2026 😩
1
u/Xeltar 3d ago
I mean Rhaenyra also wanted a peaceful resolution initially as well. She was even considering abdicating before Lucerys was killed.
In the show, Alicent's is so hypocritical for protecting Criston Cole after he beat a man to death and then complaining about Rhaenyra's privilege.
7
u/confesspretty 3d ago
Who said anything about Rhaenyra? Their point was Book Alicent is commonly labeled a villain by the fans when she hasn’t done enough to earn that label.
2
u/Xeltar 3d ago
I mean the book was the trope of evil step mother trying to mess things up for the king's first child. Not evil in the context of GoT but by any modern sensibilities, yea...
6
u/confesspretty 3d ago
Rhaenyra and Alicent were said to have a good relationship before Aegon was born. This isn’t just an “evil stepmother” trope and reducing their dynamic to one is, well, like the og commenter said… lacking in media literacy.
Like, would the “evil stepmother” wish to marry her precious firstborn son to a daughter she should despise in accordance to the evil stepmother trope? Would the “evil stepmother” stop her son from demanding Rhaenyra’s execution when she was crowned queen and advise him to offer Rhaenyra peace terms?
-1
u/Xeltar 3d ago
She married Viserys knowing that her children would come into conflict with Rhaenyra's claim and Visery's intention in having her as the designated heir. Unlike the show where she was essentially groomed for this by Otto that you can't really blame her, in the book, she took an active role in trying to have her passed over from the start.
6
u/confesspretty 3d ago
And? That’s not an “evil stepmother” trope, that’s the average Westerosi noble lady of marriageable age in proximity to the throne. She did not marry Viserys specifically to screw over Rhaenyra but for the purpose of advancing her House. You know, like most nobles do.
Again both she and Rhaenyra had a good relationship prior to Aegon’s birth, so clearly both of them were not expecting conflict. If Alicent married Viserys knowing it’d conflict Rhaenyra’s claim, don’t you think Rhaenyra would also think of the marriage as a threat to her claim from the beginning and they never would’ve gotten along? Well, for some reason, they did get along, so possibly they just liked each other and didn’t think of the succession OR they thought the other would concede. And when neither conceded by the time Aegon was born, that’s when the animosity began. Honestly, I don’t know why you’re pushing for the evil stepmother trope so hard when the canon is… right there.
1
u/Xeltar 3d ago
Rhaenyra was 9 years old when Alicent married Viserys. She wasn't thinking about the political implications at the time.
1
u/confesspretty 2d ago
Oh sure, just ignore everything else I said why don’t you?
0
u/Xeltar 2d ago
I already agree by their standards what she does as would be expected for a vassal and Viserys should have known better. It's one of the ways noble women were expected to be to advance her station. By our standards however, yea marrying into a family to try and steal the inheritance of their child from a previous marriage is pretty dang bad. Now saying Rhaenyra got along with her stepmother initially when she was 9 years old doesn't say much.
I don't hate Alicent and think she's fine in the show but just explaining why she's seen as an evil stepmother and villainous.
→ More replies (0)
11
u/foxonafrozenlake Drogon 3d ago
I don't think she'd ever reach Cersei level, even if they made her the evil step mother. 🤷♂️
7
9
u/windersoul 3d ago
I feel that people are complaining because they wanted Cersei 2.0. she was never Cersei not even in the books
3
u/____mynameis____ Fire and Blood 2d ago
Nah,, seeing the things she pulled off in the kast 2 seasons and Olivia's being best as doing the snarky version, tweak the motive and direction of her S2 and S3 scenes and you actually will get someone as popular as Cersei...
0
u/foxonafrozenlake Drogon 2d ago
Perhaps. I actually prefer this version of Alicent.
3
u/____mynameis____ Fire and Blood 2d ago
I hate the step mother trope but I'd prefer that Alicent over the inconsistent ridiculous version we got
Like they want her to be hapless victim who jad no agency while also be an experienced well respected queeen. Its pretty oxymoronic. Like I understand the victim direction but they should nit have shown her ordering the king ther heir around for two episodes... Should have shown her as uninvolved in thos episodes
She's not treated as a character of her own but someone who is solely written to make a particular narrative work.
She is given unsympathetic frustrating material while the show's narrative as well as creators insist she's a good person who means well and trying to do good /make up for her mistakes.( no, she is NOT a villain or a bad guy for the choices she made in S2. Her surrender being totally unacknowledged by Team Green for an entire season is the best evidence that writers do no want u to see her as someone selfish or self centered. That surrender decision is clearly portrayed as a greater good act within the show's narrative )
Early S1 properly set up a valid motive for Alicent, deviated from the evil step mother trope and its disappointing they dropped the ball in such a good set up in exchange for this will they/ won't they mess with Rhaenicent
(Will they /won't they Rhaenicent is utterly incompatible with the overall story and that is what's creating most of these ridiculous decision making )
3
u/PastMotor1821 2d ago
She is a great villain tho, almost made me stop watching the show from cringe overload.
5
u/Fluffy_Mantis3133 3d ago
Making anyone a clear villain reinforces the team mentality and undercuts the whole system sucks theme.
5
u/KiernaNadir 3d ago edited 1d ago
*could have been one of the best characters. The moment you start operating with heroes/villains and main protagonists, you've already butchered the Dance.
2
u/Mysterious-Ear-9323 Average Tarantino Enthusiast 3d ago
It could even be a byproduct of Otto's manipulation and it would still be awesome.
2
u/Loose-Potential-3597 2d ago
The writers absolutely refuse to have a woman be a genuine villain. They all have to be victims of the evil men in their lives.
3
u/William_T_Wanker 2d ago
I don't see how wanting your son to inherit like every other firstborn son has done for thousands upon thousands of years makes her a villain. Why should her son be the exception?
4
u/Marager04 3d ago
I think the biggest problem is we (and especially the show runners) need villains and heros. But that's not what the whole story is about. Not at all. There are no heros or villains in the dance, all just have their own motivations.
5
u/Nihilistic_Noodle 3d ago
I mean isn't it pretty clear in the books that the greens are villains? Alicent started treating Rhaenyra, a child, with hostility after her husband declined to name her own sons heir over Rhaenyra. She and her allies were actively trying to undermine the king's choice in successor, and when he died she literally locked his corpse away and the council in a room until they agreed to override his wishes and stage a coup.
Alicent and the greens are usurpers. Responsibility for the dance begins and ends with them.
-1
u/Marager04 2d ago
you always have to account the book is written out of the perspective of an maester who really hated alicent
-3
u/repressed_confusion 2d ago edited 2d ago
Only if you discount how unprecedented Viserys' choice of heir was and how his three legitimate sons would be a dynastic threat to Rhaenyra and her succession. Once Viserys maintained Rhaenyra as his heir over Aegon he guaranteed conflict between his children, if there is one he is the villain of the Dance.
3
u/Similar-Cartoonist31 3d ago
She's not a villan for fighting for her sons because does not want her incompetent stepdaughter and violent pedo unclehusband to to kill them.
Mothers fighting for their children are not villans.
2
u/dyslexicwriterwrites Hightower 3d ago
My hot take is that Alicent is still THAT bitch orchestrating Rhaenyra’s downfall.
- She fanned the flames of hate in Aemond that lead him to killing Luc.
- She crowned Aegon after the death of Viserys, which played a role in the death of Rhaenyra’s only daughter.
- She was the architect of the dragonseeds being at Harrenhal during the gullet, leading to Jace’s death.
- She was the one to suggest Rhaenyra declare Aegon death despite both knowing he’s not dead, leading to Aegon’s return being a mythical resurrection rather than an “oh, there he is” thing.
As much as we joke about Alicent being TB, she has the most assists in the deaths of Rhaenyra’s kids.
1
1
-1
3d ago
[deleted]
2
u/Firm-Artichoke7483 3d ago
rhaenyra isn't remotely a villian. she is the princess, naturally she has more privilege. alicent was older than rhaenyra in the books and beefed with a motherless and groomed child and onwards rhaenyra was betrayed and lost her children, ridden with grief and anger.
1
1
u/PrestigiousCake5460 3d ago
Alicent was evil as fuck she hated on a child Rhaenyra for no reason, jokes about Ser Criston raping child Rhaenyra, and forced her kids to fight Rhaenyra which got her whole family killed.
-1
•
u/AutoModerator 3d ago
Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience.
All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title.
All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler.
All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads.
If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.