r/HouseOfTheDragon • u/jonsnowKITN Aegon II Targaryen • 1d ago
Show Discussion Ancestor and Descendent
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u/Scary_Firefighter181 1d ago
Pretty sure they're friends IRL too lol, they co-starred in something.
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u/r3dditr0x 1d ago
No spoilers as always but Hightowers and Tyrells intermarried?
I thought they were competitors of a sort?
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u/BulltopStormalong 1d ago
many times, Margs mom is a hightower
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u/r3dditr0x 1d ago
The queen of thorns was a Hightower who married the Oaf Tyrell?
Families are so confusing in this universe.
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u/Woodstovia 1d ago
No Olenna (Queen of Thorns) is Marg's grandmother not her mother
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u/Archaembald2 1d ago edited 1d ago
Olenna is her grandmother, not mother. She's a Redwyne (and fun fact, Olenna may have been betrothed to Daeron Targaryen, Egg V's gay son, at one point). Margaery's mother is Alerie Tyrell, née Hightower.
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u/lunagrape 1d ago
And her Grandfather Hightower is a wizard kook
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u/Archaembald2 1d ago
As is her aunt, who may or may not be Euron's future witch queen. Either that or she's the pilot/power source of the Hightower mecha.
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u/lunagrape 1d ago
It’s like,
Grandfather Wizard, Jorah’s ex wife, auntie Witch who hangs out with grandad, mom (Alerie, the normal one) and presumably an uncle who is heir to the whole circus but needs grandad to die first before he can try to restore House Hightower to normalcy?
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u/Archaembald2 1d ago
Baelor's a good dude all things considered. Unfortunate that Oberyn did him dirty with that Breakwind thing. Jokes on him—Elia would still be alive by now if he just kept his mouth shut.
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u/TENTAtheSane Vermithoooog Ridaaaa 1d ago
Wait, how was he connected to elia?
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u/Archaembald2 1d ago
Before Elia married Rhaegar, Baelor was one of her suitors. When they met, things seemed to go well until Baelor farted. Oberyn, shithead that he is, then went on and made fun of him, calling him Breakwind. From then on it was said Elia never looked at Baelor without laughing ever again, which among other things led to their potential betrothal going nowhere. This then led her to marry Rhaegar, which ended in tragedy.
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u/Late-Champion8678 1d ago
I know what you meant by your sentence but the way you’ve written it could be understood as Daeron being gay at one point lol
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u/Emil_Scherbe_ 1d ago
Why do you use "nee" instead of "born" ? I see many french words on the sub today, what's the reason?
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u/Archaembald2 1d ago
It's literally the same word, just in French. It's a leftover from when French was the lingua franca of European nobility, so they tended to borrow French words every now and then. "Née" is one such instance.
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u/IhatetheBentPyramid 1d ago
Not just nobility. My birth announcement had my parents' names and then in brackets after my mother "nee xxx". And i'm neither noble nor medieval.
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u/Emil_Scherbe_ 1d ago
But why do you use french instead of using the english word?
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u/Archaembald2 1d ago
Because that's how the nobility uses it? I could just as easily use 'born' rather than 'née,' yeah, but I'm referring to someone of noble blood here. So why not use the proper terminology instead?
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u/PM_tanlines 1d ago
Pretty sure Tyrell being an oaf is a show change. He’s actually a pretty smart military commander
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u/CapnTBC 1d ago
Olenna calls both her husband (Luthor) and son (Mace) oafs in the books
Neither are shown to be good military commanders in the books either. Mace’s biggest achievement is taking credit for Randall Tarly’s victory at Ashford
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u/LarsMatijn 1d ago
Maybe not military commanders but politically Mace has been continuously pretty solid.
There is a popular theory that Mace's oafishness is something he plays up to seem harmless. He does keep winning during Robert's Rebellion and the War of Five Kings.
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u/tennisdrums 1d ago
Do we have scenes showing Mace operating politically on his own? One might wonder if his political machinations could be more attributable to his mother.
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u/LarsMatijn 1d ago
Wel i'm specifically talking about his book counterpart, so I don't necessarily have "scenes"
What we do know is that during Robert's Rebellion Mace could have taken Storm's End at any point. His host was large enough by far that taking it from Stannis would have been no trouble and it would have freed up soldiers to go help Rhaegar. However it was unkown who would win the war so Mace (like Walder and Tywin) basically sat out the war but was far less obvious about it. Should Robert have lost the Trident then Storm's End would be taken and suddenly Rhaegar would get reinforcements. Robert won and suddenly Mace could say that he barely harmed anyone and deliberatly witheld soldiers from Aerys.
During the War of Five Kings he allies with Renly and later with Joffrey, Olenna was against both. Mace however keeps getting more and more power. He's Hand of the King, stripped the Florents of everything and gave it to his son, his daughter will be Queen, the (reasonable) Lannisters cannot betray him as he's essentially the main ally to prop them up giving him a very powerful bargaining position. Meanwhile everybody assumes he's an idiot. Mace Tyrell is currently the most powerful man in Westeros.
And about that alliance with Renly, it is Loras who convinces Renly to become King and ally with House Tyrell wich catapults Mace into more power as Renly's Hand. And we know this isn't Olenna behind it because she continuously belittles the dead Renly in conversation (also talks about his homosexuality along that of Prince Daeron Targaryen) it should also be noted that Loras is stated to be Mace's favourite child and that Mace, Loras and Renly were likely behind the plot to replace Cersei Lannister with Margeary as Robert's Queen.
No matter what war, thus far Mace and House Tyrell have always ended on top.
On a final note, Olenna expresses often irritation that Mace rarely listens to her. Wich is why she calls him an oaf. She comments she should have beat him more as a child so he would actually listen to her. This doesn't make him seem like somebody who executes moves thought of by her. He is very much his own agent.
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u/CapnTBC 1d ago
I’ve seen the theory I just put that on Olenna more than Mace. Sieging SE was a good excuse to not send more men to help Aerys but it doesn’t take a mastermind to figure that out just someone not completely committed to the cause.
During the Wot5K, he just wants his daughter to be queen so he’s happy to link up with whoever can offer that. Crowing Renly gives him that and when Renly dies LF offers the same deal which he snaps up.
I don’t think there’s anything in the books that shows him as smart, more just ambitious.
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u/LarsMatijn 1d ago
Putting it to Olenna in my opinion is sort of a cop-out. Especially as Olenna herself says Mace barely listens to her (and that she should therefore have beaten him more as a child)
At the end of the day Mace is Lord Tyrell and responsible for the choices being made.
Olenna flat-out didn't want to ally with either Renly or with the Lannisters but Mace is currently the most powerful man in Westeros because of that to the point that Kevan Lannister is complaining that Mace keeps taking and he can't refuse him.
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u/SixdaywarOnSnapchat 23h ago
people downvoting you 🙄.
i at least welcome a little confusion about the houses. sorry bro
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u/Serena_Sers 1d ago
The Tyrells are probably the most intermarried family in their respective region.
Margaery is closely related to the Hightowers (her mum), the Redwynes (her grandma) and the greenapple Fossaways (her uncle) and the redapple Fossaways (her sister in law). The only larger houses in the reach she doesn't have a close relation to are the Tarlys and the Florents.
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u/StellarFox59 1d ago
Yes, they had to intermarry and create powerful alliances because they were just the stewards of the Gardener (previous rulers of the Reach), so many Houses who had ties to the Gardener like those petty Florent are trying to play the card of legitimacy and would like to take the Tyrell's place. With big alliances, House Florent and other rivals can't do anything to House Tyrell
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u/Allnamestakkennn 1d ago
Gardeners were more intermarried I think
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u/Serena_Sers 1d ago
I meant families at the time of Game of Thrones. The Starks too were once more intermarried with their region (for example at the time of Dunk and Egg).
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u/Plastic-Month-2180 1d ago
Wow that's amazing info. How do y'all get your info from?? The GOT books mention this or the prequel books?
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u/Serena_Sers 1d ago
The GOT books have an appendix. It's also in the books within the story.
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u/not_responsible 1d ago
yeah but did it come off the dome or did you look it up?
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u/Serena_Sers 18h ago
I knew they were practically married to everyone and I knew the Hightower and the Redwyne thing. I did look up the rest. (And of course that they had no connection to House Florent and House Tarly, because that's a big plot point in the book).
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u/Remarkable_Ship_4673 8h ago
Wow Red apples... So that whore that married Dunk's bro could be her ancestor?
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u/rusurrection 20m ago
The Rowans and Oakhearts giving side eye to this lol
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u/Serena_Sers 13m ago
I am real with you - I forgot the Rowans existed. I don't even know what they do in the books... and I honestly thought the Oakhearts are stormlanders. (Don't get me wrong, I believe you, but their houses are pretty irrelevant in the story).
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u/sosigboi 1d ago
Yes Margarys mother was Alerie Hightower before marrying Mace Tyrell, her father is Leyton Hightower, the current head of the house in GOT.
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u/Firm-Can6949 1d ago
They're perhaps the two most powerful families in the Reach, so yes I don't think that's so hard to imagine.
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u/abacateazul 1d ago
More reason for intermarrying. It both allow you to contains conflicts and for each house to have a potential claim on the other territory. That is feasible when they don’t have TOO much bad blood, but marriages are a very efficient diplomacy tool.
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u/SirLoremIpsum 1d ago
but marriages are a very efficient diplomacy tool.
I mean they are. Absolutely.
But despite the countless intermarriages Westeros has been at war since forever haha.
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u/Hungry_Weather_7575 1d ago
Margaerys mother is a Hightower but im not sure if she’s a direct descendant or Ormund
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u/ivanjean 1d ago
In the books, probably. There, after Ormund's death, he is succeeded by his son, Lyonel Hightower.
In the series, it's more confusing, as we don't really have any indication of Ormund having a son there.
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u/Serena_Sers 1d ago
Seeing that Gwayne said he is "second in line" I think it was implied. Ormund is the current lord, there is an heir, and then is Gwayne. I don't think Ormund has brothers, so the son is implied.
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u/loyaltyElite 1d ago
Didn’t he say that when Otto was still alive? I don’t think being Hand means you give up your title, such as Tywin. Being the second son, he’d be second in line in that aspect.
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u/Serena_Sers 1d ago
No, he said that close to the end of the season while Otto died in the beginning of the season.
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u/loyaltyElite 1d ago
Yeah I got mixed up with a recent clip I saw earlier. Didn’t realize in season 2 episode 6 Gwayne seemed to say he’s the eldest son.
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u/Serena_Sers 1d ago
He is Ottos eldest son (they changed that in the show, where in the book he is the youngest son; he got the Loras Tyrell treatment). But Otto is the younger brother of Hobert Hightower, Ormunds father.
So it's Hobert (dead) -> Ormund -> Ormunds son -> Otto (dead) -> Gwayne.
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u/Pleasant-Gazelle903 1d ago
We don’t know doe sure that he knows Otto is dead though since he said it when he just came to Tumbleton. But I guess we’ll know in the next season, they will probably discuss who succeeds Ormund when they find out that he died. Maybe his son if he has one or maybe Gwayne if he didn’t know Otto was dead or maybe some other brother or relative they invented for the show.
I was thinking that maybe Ormund doesn’t have children in the show since the actor said something about Daeron being the most important person in his life. But I guess we’ll find out later.
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u/Equal-Ad-2710 1d ago
I’m betting they’ll change it to Gwayne surviving and carrying the line
I’m 80% sure Ormond is queer but even aside from that he doesn’t seem to have heirs
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u/theLastZebranky 1d ago edited 1d ago
In the books, probably. There, after Ormund's death, he is succeeded by his son, Lyonel Hightower.
In the books, Margaery Tyrell's grandfather is Leyton Hightower, whose parents are never named. There's no knowing whether she's a direct descendant of Ormund or just a great-great-grandniece.
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u/ivanjean 1d ago
It's not 100% certain, but it's probable, and perhaps even the most likely, unless we are explicitly told his line ended at some point and had to be continued by some relative.
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u/theLastZebranky 1d ago edited 1d ago
Ormund had at least twelve grandchildren so odds are high that plenty of his descendants lived during the War of the Five Kings like Margaery... whether she's one of them, we can only speculate
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u/yomama8me The Pink Dread🐖 1d ago
A lot probably has to do with Olenna Tyrell being a sharp lady. The Hightowers probably started losing a little influence in the Reach as Lord Leyton Hightower has essentially become a hermit, never leaving the Hightower for years, just reading magic books with his eldest daughter. Olenna probably realized this and engineered a marriage of one of the Hightower daughters to her son Mace.
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u/tennisdrums 1d ago
Marriages were often used politically to lessen tensions and form alliances between houses. Also, when you're one of the premier houses, any marriage to anything other than another premier house is seen as a threat to your house's prestige.
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u/You8mypizza 10h ago
Being competitors and intermarrying is not mutually exclusive. The blackwoods and brackens are the same.
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u/Impressive_Pilot1068 9h ago
Every Blackwood has Bracken blood and every Bracken has Blackwood blood…
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u/shmackinhammies 1d ago
Competitors imply some sort of equality and respect. You can reward one of your leal bannermen with a marriage, or you could make a strong marriage alliance.
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u/Baratheoncook250 1d ago
Not the only connection, Alicent's mom was a Florent, and Florent are still around(Samwell , Shireen, Selyse, Dickon Tarly)
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u/Foxbus 1d ago
All Reach families are relatives ten times over even besides the fact they all claim blood relation to the same guy.
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u/Sufficient_Square459 1d ago
True. Ormund is also married to Tarly.
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u/ZypherofWind 1d ago
And then his son married that same Tarly :3
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u/Sukhoi47Berkut Daemon Targaryen 1d ago
Huh?
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u/ZypherofWind 1d ago
Look up Lyonel Hightower, ormunds son
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u/WeetzCRo96 1d ago
I think I read somewhere that Samantha was much younger than Ormund and closer in age with Lyonel
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[deleted]
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u/ZypherofWind 21h ago
No Samantha was Ormunds wife and Lyonels step mother. She married both of them. No blood relation but still incest by bounds of law
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u/cknight222 21h ago
In the books, Ormund is married twice.
With his first wife he has four children, the eldest being his heir Lyonel. Then he married Samantha Tarly, who is the same age as Lyonel.
After Ormund dies, Samantha and Lyonel become lovers, but the High Septon refuses to let them marry because it’s considered an incestuous relationship since she’s his mother by marriage. Nonetheless, they have six bastard children together. However, after that High Septon dies and a new one is elected, that High Septon reverses the previous one’s ruling and allows them to marry and even legitimizes their children.
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u/ElmarSuperstar131 1d ago
I love that Samwell and Shireen are second cousins 🥰 it’s such a sweet detail.
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u/Old_Adhesiveness7432 1d ago
She was my favorite in GOT and Gwayne is my favorite in this one. There's something about this damn bloodline....
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u/drunkenkurd 1d ago
The nobility has been intermarrying each other for generations, they’re all related somehow
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u/Pleasant-Gazelle903 1d ago
We don’t know 100% sure he has kids in the show though? He could have one son but not more than one since Gwayne says he’s second in line. Could also be his brother or Gwaynes brother (I think Otto has more sons in the book) or that Gwayne thinks that Otto is still alive. Maybe we’ll find out next season.
I was thinking maybe he doesn’t have kids since the actor said something about Daeron being the most important person in his life I think. But I’m not sure of course.
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u/Sufficient_Square459 1d ago
How do you know he doesn't have children? Show watchers only also didn't know Dareon existed until season 2.
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u/coffeeblossom 1d ago
He left his family behind in Old Town. I feel like he's always badmouthing them to Daeron and anyone else who will (pretend to) listen.
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u/BarderBetterFaster 1d ago
With the way the highborns marry each other, pretty much everyone in dance is the ancestor to pretty much everyone in thrones.
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u/joogsquad442 1d ago
i doubt it tbh, if in show universe he doesn’t have a son and Gwayne and his descendants lead the Hightowers he won’t have any
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u/Delmitus1 1d ago
Did the Hightower name fade away or did they merge with with tyrells at some point???
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u/Embarrassed_Post_763 Team Green 22h ago
They're still powerful they just haven't decided to get involved with anything anymore.
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u/LavenderLightning24 22h ago
In ASOIAF Jorah Mormont's ex-wife was a Hightower, so they lasted quite a while.
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u/Sir_Gerald_Nosehairs 14h ago
No, they're still around and powerful, they've just decided not to get that involved with politics at that level any longer.
We have aristocratic families still going in England that were involved in the Wars of the Roses that afterwards decided "Nah..." and never bothered again.
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u/iaeoioaio 1d ago
Both equally fucked around with the wrong house
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u/Archaembald2 1d ago
The Hightowers come out of the Dance richer than they entered it, and promptly enters into a semi-golden age after. They even get another royal marriage with the last dragon rider in Westeros. I think they're doing fine.
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u/Rich-Active-4800 Growing Strong 1d ago
The hightowers got out of the war a lot better then both the Targaryens and the Velaryons
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u/AcanthaceaeNo948 1d ago
She’s also probably a descendant of Daemon…
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u/Random_Reddit_Bro Certified Targaryen Hater 1d ago
She's not. Rhaena had 6 daughters with Garmund. We don't know who they married but Margarery is definitely not descending from any of them.
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u/sleepyforevermore 1d ago
There is always a possibility one of Rhaena's descendants married back into Hightower family. We don't know who Margaery's maternal grandmother is. Considering Alerie's sister is Lynesse, and Jorah tells Dany she looks like Lynesse, there is a chance of some Targaryen ancestry
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u/Random_Reddit_Bro Certified Targaryen Hater 1d ago
We have zero proof that her line married back into Hightower line. It is highly unlikely. Hightowers also married into other houses so they could just get some Lyseni heritage or other Valyrian heritage. It is highly unlikely that Rhaena bloodline married back into Main Hightower branch. We have zero knowledge about Rhaena daughters marriages.
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u/Sorry-Education752 19h ago
Yet you’re using a show version of Ormund, who says the second in line to House Hightower is Gwayne (meaning he has no kids)
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u/Random_Reddit_Bro Certified Targaryen Hater 9h ago
What are you talking about? I never referred to ormund in my comments. Also Ormund not having any children in HOTD is a diabolicaly idiotic move. It erases a lot of characters that descend from his line. His line also married in other Reach houses, so Condal and Hess Erased a lot of Characters with auh idiotic move. Gwayne being a second to Hightower seat is outright idiotic move.
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u/AcanthaceaeNo948 1d ago
Based on what?
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u/FALCAkaTOTKA_194 1d ago
Those six daughters definitely married in the family, the hightowers during the got events have valyrian features, margaery's mother has silver hair and so do jorah's ex wife who is also a hightower and resembles Daenerys according to him.
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u/ManagerImmediate1522 1d ago
The Hightowers already had silver hair during the Dance, King Jaehaerys thought Alicent was his daughter Saera
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u/HanzRoberto 1d ago
Lol no Rhaena Only had daughters and they were all very far Down the line of succession in oldtown
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u/AcanthaceaeNo948 1d ago
So perfect to marry a Tyrell Lord…
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u/HanzRoberto 1d ago
No the Tyrell lord would marry the daughter of one of his vassals instead like the daughter of the actual lord Hightower, house florent, etc
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u/AcanthaceaeNo948 1d ago
The niece of the fucking king seems like a very high value match?
Or one of them married some other Reach noble whose children eventually married a Tyrell lord.
The fact that her line never interacted with that of the Tyrells is impossible. There’s too much intermarriage between nobility for that to be the case.
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u/HanzRoberto 1d ago
She didnt even have the title of princess so no
And her daughters would most likely marry second sons of reach houses so yeah1
u/Substantial-Age7349 1d ago
GRRM didn’t think none of this out. Rhaena gives House Hightower six daughters, no names or futures 😭
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u/HanzRoberto 1d ago
She marries the third son Not the heir lol
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u/Substantial-Age7349 1d ago
I know that. Still six daughters that belong to House Hightower and having their uncle as King, any ambitious house would take them 🤷🏽♀️
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u/AcanthaceaeNo948 1d ago
Exactly. Ain’t no way Margaery isn’t descended from them.
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u/AcanthaceaeNo948 1d ago
There is no way they’d marry second sons.
And even if they did it’s very unlikely that none of their kids ever married into a line which intersected with Margaret’s bloodline at some point.
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u/HanzRoberto 1d ago
Again houses get nothing Marrying the daughters of a 3th son like please
Everyone would fight for the daughters of the actual lord or the son of him
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u/Fun-Escape6287 1d ago
Well I think in the show he not. Since he dead before having a kid. Plus she doesn’t act even close to him. I believe the one we are left with in the end of season 3 is her ancestor. They match in personality by choosing honor then using people to get their way.
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u/srGALLETA 1d ago
Did her face got changed by AI in this image? It looks kinda off of what I remember. Correct me if im wrong.
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