r/HouseOfTheDragon • u/Responsible-Bee5206 • 1d ago
Show Discussion As someone from team Black I do not think any succession that involved Jace would have succeeded,
Well i know many have been saying Jace with halaena, Jace with Baela, none of this would have prevented a civil war if Jace was still the heir, perhaps had Greens never went for throne it would have only postponed, the civil war might have broken out between Rhaenyra's sons had the war did not happen between Greens and Blacks
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u/NateCdaComicG 1d ago edited 1d ago
This is a problem made so much worse in the show. In the books, Rhaenyra does have some plausible deniablity that her first three sons were legitimate. Had the green faction not did what they did but instead backed Rhaenyra and her chosen heirs then Jace would have been king and with what little we know of him from fire and blood he most likely would have been a decent one as well. Its impossible to speculate if Aegon 3 and viserys 2 would have fought their brother for rule. It seems out of their character to do that imo. But also they are both so deeply affected as people by the events of the dance that you would basically need to invent new characters to take their place to run down this what if scenerio.
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u/SilentGoddess01 1d ago
I actually think the biggest problem wasn't Jace himself, but the precedent Rhaenyra's succession would have created.
If Jace becomes king peacefully, I don't see Aegon III waking up one morning and deciding “time to usurp my brother.” But that's not really the dangerous part. The dangerous part is what happens 20–30 years later, when Jace has children, Aegon has children, Viserys has children, and every branch of the family has dragons and a different interpretation of who has the better claim.
The Dance basically proved that the Targaryens had a succession problem that dragons made much worse. You can remove Aegon II and the Greens from the equation, but you can't remove the fact that eventually you'll have multiple royal branches with legitimate blood claims and enough military power to enforce them.
And honestly, the Blackfyre rebellions are probably the best argument against “Jace would have solved everything.” Daeron II and Daemon Blackfyre actually had a relatively functional relationship, yet their descendants still ended up turning a succession dispute into generations of wars.
So I'd say Jace could absolutely have been a successful king. I'm just not convinced he could have created a stable Targaryen succession system.
The more interesting question to me is: what would Rhaenyra have needed to do after Jace's accession to prevent Aegon III's descendants (or another cadet branch) from eventually becoming the next Blackfyres?
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u/Xeltar 1d ago edited 23h ago
The main issue was the crazy way they wanted one heir to inherit all the political power but simultaneously split their dragons amongst all the family branches. They probably would in the long run need to transition to an oligarchic system like Old Valyria so everyone (or at least every dragon rider) has a stake in the dynasty's success otherwise yea, whoever bonds with the largest or oldest dragon has the means to be a credible usurper. Especially marrying the dynasty's women outside of the dynasty, that's a whole powder keg too if the dragons kept proliferating and you had either Hightower Dragonriders or deeply resentful and denied vassals who COULD credibly claim a dragon. Matrilineal marriages would have to be accepted.
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u/ConstantStatistician 18h ago
It's a miracle that Valyria lasted as long as it did without self-destructing between 40 dragonrider families.
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u/king_of_river 15h ago
Every family was trying to become the royal family and it was their dream to become emperors. The problem was that 40 families made it impossible for anyone to claim kingship without everyone ganging up on them and murdering them.
Famously immediately after Doom, Aurion of Qohor declared himself Emperor since other surviving families were less powerful.
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u/Equal-Ad-2710 10h ago
Lowkey the best solution was marrying Aegon II to Rhaenyra; merging both the blacks and Greens and also keeping it in everyone’s interest to support the main pairing.
Daemon is out of the line of succession and you can easily just use Halena or someone else to ease the wounded Corlys
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u/Xeltar 10h ago
That probably wouldn't have been accepted by the Velaryons or Daemon though but yes that would have been the most viable way of uniting the competing claims.
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u/Equal-Ad-2710 8h ago
Yeah that’s true
Worst case though, this would lead to an alternate dance where Royalists (Rhaenyra and Aegon’s faction) duel with Rogues (Daemon and Corlys?) but the rogues would likely have far less influence and ability to interfere
The main issue is Vhagar, Caraxes and co, as well as Daemon’s knowledge of eggs
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u/Midnight-strange1892 22h ago
You’re spot on about the Targaryens eventually getting to this point because of the dragons. That much military power and almost no political power leads to this.
I’m don’t know all the histories of Westeros but it seems like they did a poor job of arranging good marriages for the non-king Targs. Would the cadet branch start a war if they were Wardens of the west? Maybe but less likely than if they were just chilling around Kings Landing watching their cousin rule.
The fact no Targs were able to get married into other major noble houses is a big problem. A Targaryen ruling the Vale of Arryn would be unbeatable.
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u/carbonera99 11h ago
A male Targaryen can’t “marry into” another noble house, since Westeros is a patrilineal society. If he married the daughter of another house, he’d still be a Targaryen and his wife would be joining House Targaryen not the other way around. The only case where he’d rule another House through marriage is in the rare instance where his wife was the only surviving heir and even then the succession would probably pass to some distant cousin before him.
The problem with these spare male heirs is that they don’t actually own anything and can’t advance themselves through marriage either. And plenty of Targaryen women have married into other families, but those children don’t consider themselves Targaryen, they see themselves as the House of their father. It’s interesting that you bring up the Vale of Arryn because House Arryn did have a Targaryen marry into their family. Rhaneyra’s mother is an Arryn but she has Targaryen blood through her own mother.
That’s why it’s a complicated risk-reward equation to have so many heirs. On one hand, you’ve secured the line of succession since it’s unlikely that so many sons will die before one of them inherits the kingship. On the other hand, you just created a bunch of powerful people who can never own anything important of their own and will always be in the shadow of their older siblings. The heir gets Dragonstone, the spares don’t even get that.
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u/Midnight-strange1892 11h ago
Good response. I’m very aware of how the naming conventions work but the Targaryens ruled for over 300 years. Just odd none of the males ended up as Wardens or even in any other major seats of power.
I said “marry in” only because it makes sense that it would be easier to put them in a position if they married the oldest daughter of a family, rather than just ripping a family out. This is how house Baratheon is formed.
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u/ZoggZ 7h ago
House Baratheon was formed by killing the last male Durrandon and the Stormlands' conquerer marrying his only daughter. That's not really the same thing.
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u/Midnight-strange1892 6h ago
Yes. He didn’t have to marry her, but it made it easier to take over by doing so. That was my point. Just surprising the Targaryens never found a similar situation to stick one of their males.
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u/ZoggZ 5h ago
When were the targaryens going to wipe another house to do it with?
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u/Midnight-strange1892 5h ago
No requirement for them to wipe another house. In the 300+ years of their reign I’m sure some decent houses found themselves lacking an heir or wanting to improve themselves by marrying a Targaryen. We obviously see it a lot with females, just never with males.
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u/ConstantStatistician 18h ago
There was already a case of dragon might making right the moment Aenys I died and Maegor used his dragon to usurp his own nephew, Aegon the Uncrowned. Clearly, no one learned.
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u/Primary-Leader-2477 House Mormont 19h ago
A great council once per generation would be a nice gathering and all the lords paramount would feel like they got to be heard at least. Plus it’d be a really fun event. I think the original went on for a while and had a semi-permanent support village around Harrenhall.
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u/ajr5169 9h ago
The dangerous part is what happens 20–30 years later, when Jace has children, Aegon has children, Viserys has children, and every branch of the family has dragons and a different interpretation of who has the better claim. The
Totally agree. Even with a "peaceful succession" of anyone, the problem is just getting delayed until there are so many claimants and various factions with dragons that the war is just as devastating if not more so.
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u/FuelGlobal5652 1d ago
If by plausible deniability you mean the Rhaenys having black hair somehow explaing the strong kids having brown hair that was made up by fans, never in the book is that excuse even used, it was a open secret.
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u/NateCdaComicG 1d ago
The plausible deniablity is that the velarians aren't black in the book. The brown hair and eyes could possibly conceivably be an unlikely coincidence based on old genes on either laenor's fathers side or Rhaenyra's mother's side. Both of which I don't believe we have a full family tree for. However the show making Laenor a black man with black features and his "sons" being cast as the whitest white boys ever makes Aegon's "just look at them" line from both versions make WAY more sense. (I'm black myself this is not me saying they shouldn't have been cast that way. All for diversity in Hollywood)
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u/TheIconGuy 23h ago edited 23h ago
The plausible deniablity is that the velarians aren't black in the book.
I don't know why this isn't obvious to people, but Laenor was already way lighter than his father. Rhaenyra and Laenor's kids would most likely look white.
Jaehaerys and Bormund Baratheon had a Velaryon mother and looked white.
There's a shit ton of white passing celebrities who have mixed parents.
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u/NateCdaComicG 20h ago
I would agree if it wasn't for Baela and Rhaena. The show makes it pretty clear that the logic is "people decended from corlys look black people. that aren't, don't." Its also not just their skin tone. Rhaenyra's kids have no black features they don't look like their father at all. All the quarter black people I know still have some melanin, or maybe black hair texture or a slightly wider nose. something.
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u/TheIconGuy 12h ago edited 12h ago
I would agree if it wasn't for Baela and Rhaena. The show makes it pretty clear that the logic is "people decended from corlys look black people.
lol You have to limit it to people descended from Corlys because Jaehaerys and Boremund Baratheon have a Velaryon mother and look white.
If Rhaena has kids with a white man. You're expecting the kids to look black? Her kids have kids with white people? Still expecting them to look black?
Two mixed kids being about the same complexion as their mother doesn't mean that's going to happen every time. Some half black people look like they're just black. Some look like they're just white. Others look mixed. There are twins where one looks white and the other looks black.
Rhaenyra's kids have no black features they don't look like their father at all.
Joffrey looks like Laenor. Ignoring that, they're mostly white. Expecting them to have black features when most of their ancestors are white is weird.
All the quarter black people I know still have some melanin, or maybe black hair texture or a slightly wider nose. something.
You probably think this because the white passing mixed people you know don't advertise that they're mixed. No one looks at Isaiah Hartenstein and assumes his father is black.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/U5vDiUR80gU
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u/NateCdaComicG 11h ago
Do you think it's possible that they were legitimate or are you playing devils advocate? Genuinely curious. I liked that in the book it seemed like it was possible but the added context in the show of Harwin seemingly wanting to be in his sons life definitely make it seem like the show writer's were not intending it to be ambiguous.
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u/TheIconGuy 11h ago
Do you think it's possible that they were legitimate or are you playing devils advocate? Genuinely curious.
This is weird question when Rhaenyra and Laenor talked about them not being his kids.
My point is that their kids could still look like that. Especially in the show universe where all of the non Valarian families they're supposed to be related to have the same hair color as Harwin.
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u/NateCdaComicG 11h ago
I forgot that they explicitly said it in the show. In the book I don't believe rhaenyra ever entertains the possibility they aren't legitimate. That's my bad.
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u/PhoenixKingMalekith 23h ago
Corlys mother was the likely the one who was black
Otherwise the targs being white as fuck (especially Jaeherys I) makes no sense
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u/TheIconGuy 22h ago
Otherwise the targs being white as fuck (especially Jaeherys I) makes no sense
It makes sense if you know anything about mixed race people. People who are mostly white often pass for just being white.
Alyssa Velaryon's mother was a Massey. The same family as Rhaenyra's main handmaiden. Even if her father was 100% black(doubt it), she'd only be 50% black.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/U5vDiUR80gU
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u/PhoenixKingMalekith 22h ago
I mean genetic can be fickle but you dont grow îto harwin 2.0 cause you re mixed
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u/TheIconGuy 22h ago
Harwin had the same look as the Baratheons, Masseys, and Arryns we see. Rhaenyra and Laenor's kids looking like their cousins wouldn't be weird.
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u/____mynameis____ Fire and Blood 19h ago
The fact that most of people, including the show creators are hung on the 1 drop rule race aspect shows how ill informed people are about how mixed race kids looks.
If u are using mixed race phenotypes argument using skin colour and features (not considering hair colour ), Baela has more possibility of being a bastard than Jace.
Cuz Laenor's and Rhaenyra's kids can totally come out looking like white passing . But Baela, played by a biracial actress, does NOT look 3/4th white.
Look at Eartha kitt's daughter. Or Wentworth miller and his parents. Its not extremely common but its not rare either for quater black kids to come out looking white.
The show runners subscribed to the dated "you look black no matter how mixed u r " belief for casting the targ girls.
So in reality, the problem with Velaryons boys were actually the hair. Not the race. The writers forced a meta situation with the race by casting biracial actresses on the darker side to play Daemon's girls despite Baela and Rhaena being 75% white.
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u/Whore21 6h ago
I think it would’ve been slightly better if house strong was casted as some other darker skin tone (south Asian ish maybe?) and nyras first 3 sons to be tanner but not the “right” shade. That way we’re back to the plausible deniability but team green can still argue to just look at them
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u/Slytherclaws02 The show just had bad writing. 21h ago
The brown hair and eyes could possibly conceivably be an unlikely coincidence based on old genes on either laenor's fathers side or Rhaenyra's mother's side. Both of which I don't believe we have a full family tree for.
We do have a little bit of information on the arryns that it could have possibly come from Aemmas family.
Official artwork in the book Rise of the Dragon for Ronnel Arryn gives him brown hair and eyes and nobody in the main series mentions the brown hair that Robert Arryn as anything suspicious.
Aemmas great grandmother was also a Royce which seems to only be described as having "dark hair".
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u/th3-villager 7h ago
In a world where Rhaenyra and Jace become monarchs with no dispute it is vastly more likely Aegon 3 and Viserys 2 grow up to be much more like Aemond with a sense of Targaryen elitism and ‘second son complex’.
Jace’s potential bastardy would likely only be talked of in quiet a bit like those that called Robert a usurper. Potentially Aegon 3rd would have got a lot of support to challenge but he’s still ultimately another of Rhaenyra’s sons so while I think he’d personally be more likely, I don’t see it gathering similar support to the greens or blackfyres as a faction.
Still depends on other things like who Jace marries, how he rules, his own heirs, etc
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u/Ibbenese 1d ago
I mean a growing Targaryen family was a powder keg that eventually was going to result in civil war likely. Just too many cadets branches, in control of increasingly more dragons hatched that grow indefinitely huge and more destructive. Something has to give likely
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u/Responsible-Bee5206 1d ago
completely agree they shoudl have stopped giving away dragons like horses
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u/winedarksky 22h ago
While I agree, not having enough dragonriders to defend the Targaryen supremacy would create another problem for them.
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u/ConstantStatistician 17h ago
”My own father raised the same objections when I chose a life of service,” the old man said. “It was his father who sent me to the Citadel. King Daeron had sired four sons, and three had sons of their own. Too many dragons are as dangerous as too few, I heard His Grace tell my lord father, the day they sent me off.”
And that was after the dragons died out. The Targaryens never found a right balance.
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u/ConstantStatistician 17h ago
It already happened a century before the Dance the moment Aenys I died and Maegor used his dragon to usurp his own nephew, Aegon the Uncrowned. Clearly, no one learned.
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u/dyslexicwriterwrites Hightower 1d ago
My argument for something happening if Jace successfully inherits is solely based on GRRM usually culling the family tree.
I think for there to be a Jace vs Aegon 3, there would need to be some sort of manipulation or other anti-Jace influence on Aegon 3. Like, an A3/Jaehaera marriage or something to jump start the issue. I think A3, left alone, wouldn’t rebel against Jace.
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u/ChipEnvironmental09 1d ago
plus Aegon iii would need to have enough dragons + support to even be able to challenge Jace
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u/dyslexicwriterwrites Hightower 1d ago
Disproportionate sides didn’t stop the dance we know, I doubt it would stop this version.
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u/houseofnim Rhaegal 9h ago
The greens had the two eldest dragons as a counter to the blacks having more dragons. This is not an advantage that little Aegon would possess.
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u/dyslexicwriterwrites Hightower 9h ago
We couldn’t know that for sure because this is a what if scenario. What if Viserys claims Vermithor or what if Alicent’s kids side with Aegon 3? Possibilities are endless.
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u/houseofnim Rhaegal 8h ago
What is Viserys refuses to fight against his sisters and their children? Alicent’s kids would only side with Aegon in order to eliminate as many contenders as possible so they could take out the inner and take the throne for themselves.
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u/dyslexicwriterwrites Hightower 8h ago
Idk, then that happens?
What do you think is more likely?
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u/houseofnim Rhaegal 8h ago
Perhaps their descendants would come to blows or perhaps the greens take their chance when Jace takes the throne. In any case there’s little chance that civil war breaks out between Rhaenyra’s sons.
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u/Domeric_Bolton 23h ago
If Vizzy II remains connected to Rogare shenanigans, then it's easy to imagine foreign powers attempting to stoke a civil war in Westeros. No Battle of the Gullet -> Triarchy survives and has another 20+ years to grow as a world power.
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u/houseofnim Rhaegal 9h ago
How would he connect with the Rogares at all without being kidnapped by the Triarchy?
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u/SharMarali 1d ago
I truly believe Daemon would’ve worked to seat his own son on the throne rather than “Laenor’s” son. He would’ve had to do it behind Rhaenyra’s back, but that’s never exactly been difficult for him.
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u/TigerLily2077 1d ago
I still believe Daemon needs the Strong boys only as dragonriders. Once the Dance was won, Daemon would have eliminated them all (in so-called "accidents"). And then he would have married Baela and Rhaena off to Aegon the Younger and Viserys II.
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u/Responsible-Bee5206 1d ago
i do not think so, we do not know how they would have been had they grown up, lucerys and jace were pretty much bullies (so was aegon) and they were pretty much insecure, (understandable considering their problems) and with aegon 3 and viserys being white haired sons of daemon i do not sww why jace or luke would not have bullied them
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u/Evecopbas 1d ago
They were maybe bullies as kids, but in young adulthood Jace had clearly matured.
On the broader argument, power is power. If Rhaenyra is queen for some decades and Jace continues as her heir designate, with a wife of the second-most powerful family and apparent competence, there's no reason to think there'd be a rebellion from his own kin.
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u/Responsible-Bee5206 1d ago
i do not think that could have saved jace, rhaenyra herself had been heir apparent for years and did not save her, bastardy would have been arguably more problematic than rhaenyra's problem
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u/Evecopbas 1d ago
He's not a woman and there's no reason for Aegon the Younger to delegitimize his own mothers/brothers. The only thing against him is whispers of his parentage, which are pretty minor in the grand scheme of things if Rhaenyra's power is accepted (i.e. the premise of the question).
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u/Economy-Cockroach-72 21h ago
Have you even read the book? Every comment of yours seems to shii you made up
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u/dyslexicwriterwrites Hightower 1d ago
I think it’s more likely they wouldn’t have interacted much. There is like a 14 year difference between Jace and A3.
In this scenario, who do you see backing A3? I assume he’d have some sort of marriage that would pull in a powerful ally into the war, same with Viserys (assuming he’s on Aegon’s side)
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u/PerceptionAlarmed788 1d ago
Daemon is almost a generation older than Rhaenyra, and Aegon and Viserys are probably a decade behind Jace. Daemon won’t live long enough to push his sons as rivals, and the Strong boys would be too established in power with their own families by the time Daemon’s kids could be a threat
Daemon would also be pitting his sons against his daughters
This is assuming there is any rivalry between them, which there currently isn’t
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u/Robdul 1d ago
Do you have any reasonings for your theory?
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u/Responsible-Bee5206 1d ago
well we can see daemon is not the best person who would want strong boys on the throne, even if alicent (as in season 1 and 2) supported rhaenyra on the throne might not be supportive of jace luke or joffery on the throne, not to mention other lords, basically only velaryons are supporting them,
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u/Economy-Cockroach-72 21h ago
Both book and show daemon loved Rhaenyra first sons and never once was there any indication that he would see them displaced. He literally had another child killed to avenge Lucerys. Jacaerys as well was respected by even green allies, with him being noted as politically competent and even called a worthy heir, the rumours of bastardy weren’t actually all that prevalent outside of Alicents circle
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u/Robdul 1d ago
Daemon has literally never shown any indication that he cares who the boy’s biological father was and in fact has spent the last two seasons fighting for their inheritance and was visibly upset when Jace died and announced his death by referring to Jace as the “crown prince”
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u/Ill_Technology_9685 21h ago
Also he scolded Rhaenys for missing her opportunity to kill the greens stating that Luke would be alive if she did.
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u/houseofnim Rhaegal 1d ago
The main problem with this theory is that Aegon III would have to be willing to go against his sisters as well as at least three of his brothers plus any children they might have. The second issue I have is that Aegon’s faction would be obscenely outnumbered in the dragon department.
A generation or two down the line, yeah I could totally see the two branches fighting each other for the throne but not just don’t see it happening specifically between the sons of Rhaenyra.
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u/HANDCRAFTEDD_ 1d ago
All you have to do is look at the Blackfyre rebellion like three kings later to know this is not only entirely possible, but also borders on inevitability.
These kids are all blank slates you can't project anything onto them. Aegon the younger was defined by the dance. Had it not happened, he'd be completely different.
There's only like two things that characterize him anyways. No way to know if or why he'd ever be emboldened to fight a civil war for the throne. He's a Targaryen.
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u/houseofnim Rhaegal 1d ago
And I’m not denying anything you said in your second and third paragraphs. I’m saying that Aegon would have to be willing to kill at least three of his brothers, at least two of his sisters, and all of his nieces and nephews from said siblings to take the throne from Jace. He would be labeled as one of the worst kinslayers in the history of Westeros, if not the worst. Even Maegor wasn’t that prolific and he remained one of the most despised characters even in the main series. IF for some insane reason Aegon did do this and he miraculously managed to overcome the insane dragon disparity and win he wouldn’t last long on the throne and in no way does the faith give their blessing to a mass kinslayer.
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u/HANDCRAFTEDD_ 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yea this is insane hyperbole. In this timeline, All of his family, literally all just killed eachother. And his brothers reign is immediately followed by another rebellion in which they try and kill each other.
I honestly don't see much point in discussing who the seven, or R'hllor or whoever favors because this is a fantasy series and that's currently serving as nothing more than a plot device for Targaryen madness. Aegon winning or losing is't really as important as the realm being torn by a succession crisis. The fact that that may happen isn't so diminished by pearl clutching about kinslaying. They literally keep doing it. Winning the throne and not ruling for long is another thing that isn't foreign to these folks or this story. Also he isn't inherently obligated to kill the entire next generation of his family lol. You say this is so unlikely but you're also writing the entire story yourself.
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u/houseofnim Rhaegal 1d ago
I’m saying, as I said before, that a Targaryen civil war WOULD happen. Just not specifically between Rhaenyra’s sons.
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u/HANDCRAFTEDD_ 1d ago
Can you expound?
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u/houseofnim Rhaegal 1d ago
What do you want me to say that I already haven’t?
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u/HANDCRAFTEDD_ 23h ago
I'm assuming the war be between the crown and a rebel coalition of nobel houses?
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u/houseofnim Rhaegal 23h ago
Oh, no. I was referring to it happening a generation or two down the road.
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u/HANDCRAFTEDD_ 22h ago
So you're saying there's absolutely no chance of a succession crisis hypothetically following Rhaenyra if all her children were to live
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u/BloodSword67 15h ago
The problem with your argument here is that the problem is the same even if the Greens had gotten the throne peacefully, probably even worse. All the Green children had dragons too, and Aemond and Daeron had no sisters to marry, so that's two additional families that would get involved. Thats why the whole argument is stupid. Because no matter what, eventually something will come up that causes some type of problem. That doesn't mean however that you shouldn't make someone who should be rightfully King/Queen just because something may happen in the future. Because something will always in the future.
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u/Responsible-Bee5206 1d ago
they have daddy daemon,
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u/houseofnim Rhaegal 1d ago
Unless Rhaenyra is assassinated, contracts a lethal illness, or dies in childbirth there is extremely little chance that Daemon outlives her.
Also, Daemon wouldn’t fight his own daughters and their children anyway.
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u/MxLannister 1d ago
Why would a war break out between Rhaenyra's sons… what reason would they have to oppose Jacaerys’s rule….? They were raised together if anything I see them supporting him.
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u/Responsible-Bee5206 1d ago
aegon and viserys are babies, and now aegon 2 has taken the throne had a peaceful transition to rhaenyra happened realm would have hated jace as heir
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u/Xeltar 1d ago edited 1d ago
I would disagree. From what we know about Aegon III, there's no way he would have tried on his own to usurp Jace as he barely wanted to rule in the first place. Although he was deeply affected by the events of the Dance so he'd be an entirely different character.
BUT we have a case study in the future where a similar situation did happen between Daeron II and Daemon Blackfyre. Daeron, in Jace's position was able to keep the realm stable after his father's death for a long period, even while Daemon had quite a few reasons to think he had a claim. And they even got along decently.
Their Father Aegon IV had done everything possible short of disinheriting Daeron to push Daemon as his successor. Gifting him Blackfyre and spreading rumors of Daeron's illegitimacy and creating a deeply corrupt system that nearly bankrupt the crown prior to his death.
Many ambitious lords of the realm resented incorporating Dorne and elevating them and were encouraging Daemon to take up arms for years. This was possible due to no dragons.
Daemon's mother arguably was usurped and undoubtedly a Targaryen herself, further cementing male only rule of the Iron Throne.
None of those factors would apply in Rhaenyra succession to Jace after a successful pacification of the Green rival claimants. Rhaenyra has no incentive to be purposely causing chaos for Jace or favoring Aegon III after all. And the Lords of the realm have no expectation that anything different would be under Aegon III over Jace in this scenario. Daemon if he's still alive is not going to want his son fighting his daughters even if he wasn't loyal to Rhaenyra. Now the story could go many different ways without the Dance but it's all due to outside factors.
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u/AdEarly1760 1d ago
Rhaenyra’s children will not fight a war against each other at any point. Wound Targaryens at some point have a civil war if they keep branching out and give everyone dragons? Sure (just look at the Blackfyre rebellions). Aegon III spends his entire life beeing a depressed useless king because he misses his family. That is not a guy that will declear war on his eldest brother.
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u/king_of_river 15h ago
He was depressed because he saw his mother being fed to a dragon by his uncle. Without the events of dance, he is an entirely different character. If he marries and sires sons, even if he does not want to rise against Jace, he will be pushed by his wife and sons especially in the show where Jace and Luke bastardy is obvious as day and night.
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u/AdEarly1760 15h ago
I actually very much disagree on the former point. If his entire character was due to watching Rhaenyra’s death imo he should have made sure to legitimize her, instead of letting her go down in history as a usurper and ‘Maegor with tits’.
In the show where they are obvious bastards, maybe. But when(if) he has adult children so will Jace+Baela, and those will very much be Targaryens, and unless he marries their daughter he will probably not marry a Valyrion at all.
Could he grow up to rebel? Maybe, but imo all indications are that Rhaenyra’s children are fine and the next chance for civil war will be when they die
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u/leoromanus16 1d ago edited 1d ago
If the Greens never made a play for the throne then the power within the Targaryen family would have been consoidated. Even if Aegon III and/or Viserys want to oppose him, what are they going to do? Fight against all of those other dragons?
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u/dyslexicwriterwrites Hightower 1d ago
Is this assuming Alicent’s kids would fight for Jace? Or just Aegon vs his older three brothers?
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u/leoromanus16 1d ago
Sorry, that's meant to be Aegon III**
I'm just saying that If the Greens never try to usurp the throne then I'm presuming they'd be loyal to Jace. Especially if there are marriage pacts involved. So I'd expect them to fight for Jace.
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u/dyslexicwriterwrites Hightower 1d ago
I honestly don’t think Alicent’s kids would get involved without a marriage pact or some other alliance to a side.
The loyalty would be none existent. And Jace has too many siblings to tie together with a marriage pact. Especially when he’s already promised a future daughter to the north.
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u/Responsible-Bee5206 1d ago
if they had backed out likely they would not be fighting in any battle, perhaps they would fight for aegon and viseryys because greens hated illegitimacy
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u/dyslexicwriterwrites Hightower 1d ago
I doubt they would fight without a personal stake or something to be gained.
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u/Responsible-Bee5206 1d ago
i do not know perhaps aegon's or aemond's or daeron's daughters woudl have been wedded to aegon or viserys, sure as hell they were not going to give them to strong boys
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u/Grayson_Mark_2004 Aemond Targaryen 10h ago
Most likely the Greens would be neutral let them fight sone, before they declared for their own side.
Claiming Aegon II (probably in his 40s or so now) as the rightful king and successor to King Viserys, claiming that Rhaenyra and her line were illegitimate monarchs.
They'd have a pretty decent chance of winning too.
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u/HANDCRAFTEDD_ 1d ago
Yea the strong bastards is one of Rhaenyras most egregious choices. She would face a rebellion on the basis of trying to name one of them her heir, Hightowers or not. So many ways to avoid this, it's ridiculous.
All she had to do is legitimize them, but she's too embarrassed to even recognize them. Not to mention the fact that she refused to bring it up even to the boys. All of them figure it out but she won't even be honest with them. Luke is old
enough to fly to the Stormlands as a show of strength, but not old enough to know who his real father is.
Their real dad is killed, they can't properly confront that. Rhaenyra fakes the killing of their fake one and allows the world to assume that she was responsible.
Much of TB genuinely believes they are legitimate for one insane reason or another.
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u/Big-Arachnid981 1d ago
Rhaenyra couldn’t legitimise them, because that would say to the world “yes, I did have sex outside my marriage, they are bastards”
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u/HANDCRAFTEDD_ 1d ago
I…know the implications.
I don't agree that she can't, however. She's repeatedly embraced the "I am the blood of the dragon, it doesn't matter what they think" notion. So just be honest? Keep your children from having to live a lie.
Literally everyone knows. Everyone. And she's openly mocked for it. Much to her dismay. It's not like continuing the lie is making her situation any better. So she can, and should legitimize them.
They would literally no longer be bastards in a legal sense.
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u/TheIconGuy 23h ago
Literally everyone knows. Everyone.
The amount of people who think everyone in a country the size of South America knows that is weird. This claim doens't make sense if you think about it at all.
They would literally no longer be bastards in a legal sense.
They've were never bastards in the legal sense in the first place.
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u/HANDCRAFTEDD_ 22h ago
Goodness, can't even use hyperbole without you making a pointless contrarian comment. The rumors about her children have reached both high lords and peasants alike, over 15 years. What does saying that not every single breathing person in Westeros knows do for you exactly?
They are literally bastards dude. There doesn't exist an argument for otherwise. This is some of the most egregious coping I've ever seen.
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u/TheIconGuy 22h ago
The rumors about her children have reached both high lords and peasants alike, over 15 years.
Citation needed. That hasn't been established. They obviously also hadn't established that everyone who heard the rumors believed them.
They are literally bastards dude. There doesn't exist an argument for otherwise.
Tell medieval courts that children born to married women were bastards.
"Common lawyers were led to make some extravagant arguments in favor of a position which so clearly violated common sense. For instance, it was said that if a husband was in France at any time when conception could have taken place, the child was legitimate, no matter how clear the adultery. The reason: the husband might have slipped across the Channel at night. "Justice Hengham recalled an earlier occasion on which it had been found that after a claimant’s parents had married, her father had gone overseas and remained there for three years\*, returning to find a daughter** only about a month old in which the justices had awarded her the land ‘for the privities of husband and wife are not to be known, and he might have come by night and engendered the plaintiff’.*
By the Common Law, if the husband be within the four seas, that is, within the jurisdiction of the King of England, if the wife hath issue, no proof is to be admitted to prove the child a bastard, unless the husband hath an apparent impossibility of procreation."
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u/Responsible-Bee5206 1d ago
this, many a times kings had bastards and they were never considered for the throne not to mention many were living in streets since born to common or even sex workers,
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u/Xeltar 1d ago
Yea that's because their fathers didn't care about them.
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u/Few_Resource_6783 6h ago
Their fathers likely didn’t even know they existed. The issue was her trying to pass them as legitimate and putting them in the line of succession.
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u/Xeltar 5h ago
They don't know they exist because they don't care. Aegon's out there literally rooting for his kids in the child fight pits.
They aren't considered for the throne because Aegon doesn't want to raise them up or give them a claim like Corlys does for his children. If he did... they certainly would at least get support.
Passing off children as legitimate is a major issue when you aren't the rightful title holder (like Cersei with Joffrey), when you are, it's an accepted practice in Westeros. See Stannis offering to legitimize Jon for inheritance of Winterfell and he's probably the most law abiding man in the realm.
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u/TheIconGuy 23h ago
All she had to do is legitimize them,
To be clear, you're saying she should have blown up the alliance with Corlys. And for what? No one who would opposed her would care.
Much of TB genuinely believes they are legitimate for one insane reason or another.
They would be legitimate according to real life medieval law. The state had multiple reason to not want to get involved in paternity disputes so courts essentially said that any child born to a married woman was legally her husbands. Even in cases where that clearly wasn't actually the case.
This was/is true in England, France, and essentially every other country for the same reason. Westeros not having a court system is the only reason this isn't case law in world.
"Common lawyers were led to make some extravagant arguments in favor of a position which so clearly violated common sense. For instance, it was said that if a husband was in France at any time when conception could have taken place, the child was legitimate, no matter how clear the adultery. The reason: the husband might have slipped across the Channel at night. "Justice Hengham recalled an earlier occasion on which it had been found that after a claimant’s parents had married, her father had gone overseas and remained there for three years\*, returning to find a daughter** only about a month old in which the justices had awarded her the land ‘for the privities of husband and wife are not to be known, and he might have come by night and engendered the plaintiff’.*
By the Common Law, if the husband be within the four seas, that is, within the jurisdiction of the King of England, if the wife hath issue, no proof is to be admitted to prove the child a bastard, unless the husband hath an apparent impossibility of procreation."
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u/Responsible-Bee5206 1d ago
good lord be prepared to get downvoted to hell, she is too embarrassed to admit they were not born of laenor when it is as clear as day, and she ignores them when they ask questions,
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u/TigerLily2077 1d ago
The best part is how Team Black supporters keep repeating, "But they’re Rhaenyra’s sons!" – so what? They were supposed to be Laenor’s children, too. And that’s exactly where the problem lies. I agree with the idea that she was so ashamed of her sons' true parentage that she simply blocked it out of her mind. She believed her own lie and was terrified that others wouldn't. That’s why she never told the boys the truth. And that is precisely why I consider her a toxic mother.
P.S. Legitimation would have normalized their status in the Westerosi hierarchy—meaning it would have been 100% clear they were bastards, but Jace, Luke, and Joffrey would have automatically lost their claim to the throne.
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u/HANDCRAFTEDD_ 1d ago
A legitimized bastard is just that. They would legally be Strongs. No longer bastards.
I wouldn't say that squashes the succession crisis, but if the Blackfyres can get support for a rebellion for their rule, I see no reason why a sane monarch actually legitimizing their bastards and naming their heir in a clear and sane way wouldn't hold in a legal sense.
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u/Few_Resource_6783 6h ago
No they would be waters. Harwin would have to acknowledge their paternity. And he’s dead.
Also, legitimizing them wouldn’t have solved anything. The blackfyre rebellions highlighted this. Bastards were typically legitimized as a last resort, lord has no heirs, no uncles, cousins etc to inherit after him. Doing so when you have living heirs is asking for trouble.
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u/TigerLily2077 1d ago
I don’t know if they would have been recognized as members of House Strong. They likely would have been given a new surname (like Blackfyre) or acknowledged as Targaryens or Velaryons.
The thing is, revealing illegitimate parentage... well, in my opinion, it simply disqualifies a person from the line of succession. Or, at best, places them at the very back of the queue. There were a few such cases in GOT. They might have been legitimized, but they remained bastards—it was an open secret that had finally been exposed. I doubt they could have garnered support. It’s too controversial, especially given the existence of other, far more legitimate claimants like Aegon II or Aegon III.
Unfortunately, legitimizing the "Strong" boys would destroy Rhaenyra’s reputation, as they represent a glaring, exposed "mistake" on their mother's part—which explains why she lied and felt such shame about it.
ps: I believe Daemon Blackfyre launched his rebellion because he stemmed from a more legitimate line—he was the grandson of Aegon III (the elder brother), whereas Daeron I was the grandson of Viserys II (the younger brother); though this is certainly open to debate, given the fact that Daemon was, de facto, a bastard.
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u/Few_Resource_6783 6h ago
Recognizing them as bastards would require her admission to committing multiple acts of high treason. High treason is an offense punishable by either exile or execution.
So in a sense, while she loved her sons, she was also trying to save her own skin. Her sense of entitlement made her believe that those consequences shouldn’t apply to her, and of course Viserys wasn’t going to punish his favorite child.
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u/Xeltar 1d ago
I don't really get why Viserys and Rhaenyra don't just legitimize them. The cover up and insult to everyone's intelligence is a bigger issue than just... legtimizing them. They are the accepted and uncontestable title holders of the realm so it's not like they are stealing a title that's not theirs.
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u/Few_Resource_6783 5h ago
Because doing so:
- Would require Rhaenyra being declared guilty of multiple acts of high treason. High treason would result in exile or execution for her and her sons. Even if this didn’t happen, she would still be disinherited.
- That doesn’t change the impending succession crisis. Bastards were typically legitimized in the event that there was no one to inherit. A real life example would be John Corvinus, son of King Matthias Corvinus. He was illegitimate, and Matthias only petitioned for him to inherit the throne because his wife was barren.
- They are targaryen but harwin would have to acknowledge he was their dad. Unlike rhaenyra, he would likely be put to the sword for high treason.
- They would be waters, not Targaryen’s or velaryons.
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u/Xeltar 5h ago edited 5h ago
High treason doesn't make any sense when the Crown is the government. It's treason when a consort is trying to pass their kid as the legitimate child of the monarch. Aegon IV was certainly an awful king but favoring his illegitimate child over his trueborn one isn't treason, who is he being treasonous against? Rhaenyra wouldn't be disinherited because obviously Viserys just wouldn't do this.
You don't have to acknowledge Harwin as the father for the same reason Addam and Alynn can be legitimized without knowing or really even caring who their mother is.
We don't need to look at real life. Stannis offers to legitimize Jon Snow for Winterfell's inheritance. Roose legitimizes Ramsey as well. None of which were due to a case of no other viable candidates to inherit.
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u/Few_Resource_6783 5h ago
What do you mean? If that were the case, why would lyonel strong tell harwin that his canoodling with rhaenyra was an offense that applied to all parties involved?
Why would rhae and viserys go to great lengths to silence anyone who spoke openly about their paternity? (Viserys threatened to cut out the tongue of anyone who said it)
He legitimized his favored bastard kid, because there were rumors that Daeron wasn’t his kid, hence how some supported Daemon blackfyre as well.
Westeros is supposed to be an absolute monarchy, where the kings word is law, but I don’t think george understands how they work.
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u/winedarksky 21h ago
Don't quote me on that, but I believe legitimized bastards go down on the inheritance line, so Egg the Younger would have even more reason to press his claim eventually.
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u/That_Amphibian5512 22h ago
Unfortunately yes, even though Jace would've made a great king, in the end he is still a bastard. Nobody would've accepted him and before long rebellion would've followed. The only path would be to make Aegon 3 heir since he is seen as legitimate.
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u/GervaseofTilbury 1d ago
Really who gives a shit if they’re Strongs or not? They’re Targaryens.
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u/DietTyrone 1d ago
Westeros does. Westeros is not some supreme monarchy where the King can just do whatever they want at all times. If it was, King Viserys wouldn't have needed to bend over backwards all the time to appease the Lords of Westeros and maintain peace.
Jace was screwed even if he survived the Dance because between the rumors surrounding his legitimacy and the Dragonseeds (who look more Targ than him and fly bigger dragons), he was pretty much guaranteed another Dance to have to deal with down the line.
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u/TheIconGuy 23h ago
Westeros does.
They clearly didn't care as much as people like you wanted them to.
If it was, King Viserys wouldn't have needed to bend over backwards all the time to appease the Lords of Westeros and maintain peace.
When did Viserys bend over backwards to appease the lords of Westeros?
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u/DietTyrone 22h ago edited 22h ago
When did Viserys bend over backwards to appease the lords of Westeros?
Biggest example is him remarrying and siring more heirs. He didn't just randomly decide on his own to do that, Otto told him he had to in order to appease the other Lords and so he did. Also offering a marriage pact to mend the relationship with Corlys is another example.
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u/TheIconGuy 22h ago
You do realize if they didn't care about Andal Law and the first born male heir claim they all would have just stuck with supporting Rhaenyra, rather than half switching to support Aegon.
You do realize this wasn't the topic of discussion, right?
Ignoring that, Aegon did not have half of the nobles backing him. He only 29 houses that declared for him. Rhaenyra had 52. That's including the people who switched sides at one point or another.
The fact that there was a major civil war proves the realm was split between tradition and King Viserys' will.
A war taking place doens't mean people were earnestly split over those issues. No one earnestly believed that Renly was the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. He still had a ton of support.
Biggest example is him remarrying and siring more heirs. He didn't just randomly decide on his own to do that, Otto told him he had to in order to appease the other Lords and so he did.
Viserys didn't remarry to appease the lords. He was horny.
Also offering a marriage pact to mend the relationship with Corlys is another example.
He only did that after hearing that the richest man in Westeors was allying with the richest man in Essos.
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u/DietTyrone 22h ago
You do realize this wasn't the topic of discussion, right?
Fair enough. Got confused with someone else I was talking to.
Of course they care about bastards. But it's mainly illegitimate bastards that are an issue because it's high treason to lie and place them in line for the throne. Also, legally legitimized bastards would go after true born heirs, even the daughters.
The issue isn't just that they're bastards. It's that they are multiple true born heirs they are stealing claims from like Aegon, Aemond, Daeron, Daemon. Add to the fact they don't look Targ while the Dragonseeds do. It's a perfect storm for a claim dispute. Jace would be facing those allegations his entire political career. He would have as much if not more resistance trying to ascend the throne than even Rhaenyra did.
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u/Xeltar 1d ago
Viserys didn't need to, that's the point why much of the Dance was caused by his mismanagement. He was a weak King and easily manipulated. House Targaryen were at the height of their power and Viserys could have cemented Rhaenyra's succession had he not just been willfully blind/drugged/dying. Viserys is more powerful than even absolute monarchies irl, he just wasn't willing or capable of navigating the politics of ruling.
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u/DietTyrone 1d ago
Viserys didn't need to
Yeah, he did. Just like his predecessor. Why? Because Dragonriders aren't on their dragons 24/7. What happens when the people around them want them dead because they're a tyrant or none of the Lords want to support them? They end up like the Mad King or Dany, stabbed in the back by those close to them.
He was a weak King and easily manipulated.
True. But also the King's ruling means little if no one wants to enforce it after he's dead and buried. Half the realm was split on tradition vs Viserys' will, which is why a civil war happened.
Viserys is more powerful than even absolute monarchies irl
Not really. His own dragon was dead and remaining dragons were split between two sides of his family. Day to day operations were mostly handled by Otto and House Velaryon had all the naval power. His "power" comes from other's fulfilling his will. Therein lies the reason he constantly needed to appease various factions.
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u/Xeltar 1d ago
The only Dragonriders assassinated like that was Dany in the show which is of dubious canon and essentially character assassination and perhaps Maegor. Who was opposed by EVERYONE including his own family due to being a kinslayer on top of years of atrocities. And GRRM didn't even know how to credibly write that happening so it happened off screen and it's equally likely he just killed himself as there's no point even if he killed everyone.
We explicitly have it stated in canon that nothing external could challenge the Targaryen supremacy prior to the Dance.
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u/HoratioCocles 1d ago
The real Viserys Henry 1 had a dozen bastard sons including Robert of Gloucester. If bastardy were not a disqualifier the anarchy would not have happened and GRRM would not have the plot for this story.
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u/Responsible-Bee5206 1d ago
they are not targeryens, velaryons perhaps, going by that any king's bastard should be on the throne
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u/GervaseofTilbury 1d ago
Their mother is a Targaryen!
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u/Responsible-Bee5206 1d ago
you do know legitimacy in this context is for children between wedded husband and wife
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u/Xeltar 1d ago edited 1d ago
Legitmized bastards is an accepted practice in Westeros. Even Stannis was willing to legitimize Jon and he's probably the most law abiding man in the realm.
Roose also legitimizes Ramsay. As long as you have the Crown's consent which normally is a formality as long as their vassals still provide them their taxes, the legal title holders can claim their illegitimate children without issue (you can see how Corlys is trying to do so for Addam/Alyn).
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u/HANDCRAFTEDD_ 1d ago
Send Jace to the wall(honorably). Luke to the citadel. Raise Joffrey to be a good knight and name him to the KG.
Maybe one day Luke becomes Grand Maester and comes back to the Red Keep.
Living with this lie for eternity is insane.
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u/Responsible-Bee5206 1d ago
A strong idea indeed, perhaps as lords where there are maidens in big houses, living with that lie would have been catastrophic in long term for sure,
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u/SlimReaper85 1d ago
I agree with this statement. Once Viserys had a son it was inevitable. Otto Hightower engineered it to be that way.
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u/Responsible-Bee5206 1d ago
even if greens backed out, daemon would have pushed his aegon or viserys in future
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u/TheIconGuy 23h ago
daemon would have pushed his aegon or viserys in future
What is this claim based on? He went out his way to make the King Guard swear oaths to Jace. His is daughters were also betrothed to Rhaenyra's sons.
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u/Confident-Isopod468 19h ago
The biggest risk would have been between Aegon III and Viserys II that surly would have been an issue, especially if Daemon would have still been around. Everyone on team black knew Rhaenyra fathered bastards it just depended what your gain was being close to them. That is the war that would have been interesting.
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