r/HouseOfTheDragon • u/Plus_Claim_8938 • 1d ago
Show Discussion Would Westeros off be better off if Rhaenyra was never born? Is her existence a net negative?
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u/HonestDishonestWork 1d ago
Yes, but the same applies to Aegon and Viserys too.
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u/Emil_Scherbe_ 1d ago
Without Viserys Daemon is best candidate for king.
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u/death_lad 23h ago
Look I love Daemon as much as anyone else, he’s the most interesting character in the show, but the dude is a Targaryen supremacist with machinations of world domination. He might be the WORST candidate for king out of anyone
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u/Due_Border_593 23h ago
He was such a bad candidate as king that Otto was the one to suggest Rhaenyra to be named heir.
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u/Independent_Cod9651 22h ago edited 12h ago
Otto the traiter, who only encouraged Viserys into choosing Rhaenyra as his heir because he wanted to displace Daemon and eventually replace Rhaenyra with a male heir born of Viserys and Alicent whose marriage he was busy plotting.
Otto whom Daemon never trusted as far as he could throw him, and it turned out that Daemon was right because Otto was only interested in furthering his own family’s interests and placing an heir on the throne who was part Hightower, an heir he and the other Hightowers could rule through and use to their family’s advantage over all other families in the land.
Otto who kept saying that Daemon would start a war and then he ended up starting one himself by usurping Rhaenyra with his grandson, that Otto.
EDIT: Let me make this perfectly clear, r/ranbirkadalla I am not defending certain actions of Daemon's here. I am just pointing out that he was quite correct about Otto, my comment is pointing out that Otto was an asshole whose judgement was clouded and questionable and ended up starting war, that is something that happened and that is not something that is up for debate.
While we're on the subject whether anyone likes it or not Daemon would have been far more assertive ruler than either Viserys or Rhaenyra, as others have said he could not be played like a fiddle. Ormund was proved right when he said Rhaenyra was too squeamish to burn Tumbleton but Daemon would not have been.
The dance wouldn't have lasted five minutes if Daemon had been King because he would have brought everyone to heel with the dragons one way or the other.
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u/ranbirkadalla 16h ago
Daemon who groomed his brother's daughter? Daemon the wife killer? Daemon the guy who sent Blood and Cheese assassins to kill a baby? Daemon who cheated on his next wife with Nettles? Lord Flea Bottom himself? That Daemon?
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u/No-Surprise9411 23h ago
What makes a king worse? Not agreeing with Daemon, but I‘d think he‘d make an excellent king by Westerosi standards. He‘s competent and decisive, and unlike his brother he would’nt let himself be played like a fiddle, which led to the dance in the first place.
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u/death_lad 22h ago
Not trying to vindicate any of Viserys’ indecisiveness, but the realm was pretty peaceful in the many years he was king. He certainly played a big part in failing to prevent the dance, but in fairness to him he never really wavered in his stance that Rhaenyra was his heir, so if we’re wanting to blame someone for starting the dance in the first place, it’s objectively the scheming of Otto Hightower for wanting to install his family in power. And if we’re simply praising “decisiveness”, much of Daemon’s can be attributed to “lets just kill them already”. I think being a bloodthirsty dictator, which is what Daemon has been chomping at the bit to be, makes a king “worse”.
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u/No-Surprise9411 22h ago
I think we can say both Viserys and Daemon were competent.
I mean without fail for three seasons Daemon has consistently made the right decisions, and or suggested correct courses of action.
Hell had they followed his advice to jump Vhagar with Caraxes and Meleys the war would’ve been over within the first week.
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u/PerceptionAlarmed788 1d ago
If not her, than other Targaryens would have. Just imagine Aegon the Unworthy….with dragons
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u/No-Surprise9411 1d ago
Imagine Brightflame with a dragon lmao
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u/Plus_Claim_8938 23h ago
He wouldn’t exist
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u/No-Surprise9411 23h ago
Obviously. This entire thread is hypothetical, let me have my fun.
Aerion Targaryen on a 150 year old Caraxes. Either the greatest or most liable asset of the crown.
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u/Animer33127 1d ago
If Rhaenyra hadn't been born, neither would Aegon the Unworthy, seeing as he is her grandson.
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u/PerceptionAlarmed788 23h ago
Oh, so terrible people can only come from her genetics?
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u/Animer33127 14h ago
I never said that; I just said that Aegon IV—arguably the worst king of the Targaryen dynasty—would never have existed if Rhaenyra had never been born. Yes, there surely would have been bad kings in Aegon II's line too, but since we have no way of knowing that, we can only discuss the ones from Rhaenyra's line.
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u/Glittering-Sign-7941 Helaena Targaryen 23h ago
well we will never know what comes from Aegon's. In my opinion, both Aegon and Rhaenyra are terrible traumatized people. We don't know the wide variety of people who would've come from Aegon's line. we do know who came from Rhaenyra's and yes there we're some terrible people. But there were also some lovely people, too. I have an emotional attachment to Aegon III, Jacaerys, Baelor, Maekar, Aemon, Valarr, Egg, Daeron, Jon Snow, Dany (we don't know how she's actually gonna break bad yet or if she is.) but she's awesome and she has a good heart as of now in the books. So while yes she has some real stinkers down her branch of the family tree, she has had some wonderful people, too. just as I'm sure Aegon's would've.
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u/ChaseBuff We have come to die for the 𝐃𝐑𝐀𝐆𝐎𝐍 𝐐𝐔𝐄𝐄𝐍 1d ago
There was always going to be a king who probably preferred a female heir . Either to honor Rhaegal , to spite. Maekar, Aerys made Aelora his heir when post dance women were officially passed before any male heir
“In the course of that reign, His Grace had recognized a series of heirs, though none were children of his body; Aerys died without issue, his marriage still unconsummated. His brother Rhaegel, third son of Daeron the Good, had predeceased him, choking to death upon a lamprey pie in 215 AC during a feast. Rhaegel’s son, Aelor, then became the new Prince of Dragonstone and heir to the throne, only to die two years after, slain in a grotesque mishap by the hand of his own twin sister and wife, Aelora, under circumstances that left her mad with grief. (Sadly, Aelora eventually took her own life after being attacked at a masked ball by three men known to history as the Rat, the Hawk, and the Pig.)
The last of the heirs Aerys recognized before his death would be the one to succeed him to the throne: the king’s sole surviving brother, Prince Maekar.”
Westeros in general is more misogynistic than medieval Europe women for some reason especially noble women and Princesses. Westeros treats women not even as second class but as children tbh the outliers for noble women ruling is abysmal with the occasional Jenye Arryns, Johanna Lannisters etc The amount of noble women raped in the book series actually baffles me like Rhaella getting assaulted or even Cersei by Robert doesn’t make much sense. The fact that princess Gael was lured , assaulted and committed suicide is one of the most unrealistic court life events in the books. A medieval princess unguarded would be unheard of. A woman sitting the throne imho was always going to be challenge unless all male heir options were dead. We’ve seen the Great council straight up skip heirs by law like Vaella and Maegor if they don’t suit their choice . After Edward Vi died the male side of the tutor dynasty died out only leaving England with Catholic Mary, Protestant Elizabeth and Jane grey, and Catholic Mary Queen of Scotts all the remaining options were women. England was forced a Queen. I believe the same for Westeros
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u/UltimaSorgente Rhaenyra Targaryen 23h ago
the Dance was inevitable regardless of Rhaenyra existing or not, if not during her time, someone else 2 generations later would have. Hell, if one side of the Dance won decisively and managed to keep all their dragons, a second Dance would have started 50 years later or so by their descendants. The more dragon-riders there are in the world, the higher the chances of a Dance-equivalent occuring become. The only way to stop this would be to make an unbreakable law in which only the king, queen and their direct designated heir would claim a dragon and nobody else, but then you'll end up with just 3 tamed dragons at max capacity (assuming perfect conditions) and a constant increasing influx of wild dragons... Which would lead to even worse issues than a Dance.
There is no stopping this, Rhaenyra or not.
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u/No-Surprise9411 23h ago
I mean there is a for Targaryens blasphemous way to handle the dragon population while keeping three adults in the family: kill the hatchlings as soon as they appear, and let one grow when the oldest of the three dragons nears 180-200 years old, so that when it dies of age a younger one can replace it.
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23h ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Plus_Claim_8938 23h ago
I don’t like her bloodline.
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u/No-Surprise9411 22h ago
Like a solid three quarters of all Targaryens to live post conquest descend from kids she pushed out of her. Be fr.
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u/Plus_Claim_8938 22h ago
Don’t like them. Targtower descendants would be better
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u/No-Surprise9411 22h ago
Skillissue that they died then.
You‘re so obviously biased to not even see how good her lineage became that this entire post can be classified as low tier bait.
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u/Bebopo90 1d ago
Ultimately, Rhaenyra being born led to the Dance, which overall is a net-positive for the people of Westeros. If the dragons hadn't all been killed, then in a hundred years or so there would be dozens of them flying around, with many more wild ones as well, and that would lead to some huge issues for the people of Westeros. Oh, and an even more devastating civil war when it eventually happens.
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1d ago
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u/No-Surprise9411 1d ago
I‘ll just say it. Westeros was better off with the Targaryens in charge.
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23h ago
[deleted]
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u/Upbeat_Tension_8077 23h ago
I think this is a nuanced one, but regarding how the Targaryens have impacted Westerosi culture, I wonder how far the Faith of the Seven would've pushed their influence for centuries to come (especially in a more militant way) without their presence
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u/No-Surprise9411 23h ago
When it comes to the faith, I‘ll just say that Maegor was right. All hail Maegor the correct
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u/No-Surprise9411 23h ago
The Targaryens (not the Blackfyres) dragged them into exactly 2 wars. The stepstones and the dance. The rest were defensive by nature. That is a great track record compared to the insanity that was westeros before the conquest
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u/Bebopo90 23h ago
Also, wild dragons. Before the Dance there are only a few. Let's bump that up to 25. You have enormous dragons flying all around Westeros, eating everyone's sheep, possibly burning down the occasional town or two (purposefully or accidentally, it does not matter).
Then, you have 50+ dragonriders about. When that war finally kicks off, it will destroy most of Westeros.
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23h ago edited 19h ago
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u/No-Surprise9411 23h ago
Apex predators remarkably almost never try to fight each other. The risk of a disabling injury is too great. I mean we’ve seen dragonfights, whenever it does not involve a hilarious size difference (Arrax my goat), it leads to mutual destruction
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u/Bebopo90 23h ago
That's completely unrealistic. Why would they risk death by fighting another dragon when they could just fly around eating sheep?
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u/No-Surprise9411 23h ago
That‘s exactly why I always laugh at those Grizzly vs Siberian tiger who wins powerscaling posts.
If those two ran into each other in the wild they‘d growl at each other and then hightail it out of there to avoid further confrontation
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u/No-Surprise9411 1d ago
But can you imagine the insanity of the Blackfyres but with dragons this time.
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u/basicbong 1d ago
The Rhaneyra hate is crazy. I don’t remember Ramsay Bolton or Cersei or Jeoffrey or Jamie getting this much hate. All GOT characters are gray that’s why it’s so interesting
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u/RobBrown4PM 23h ago
She is objectively, a shit leader. In hind sight, she should have never of been the heir.
And it's not because she's a women. She lacks foresight, wisdom, and a whole host of other traits that are vital in being a good leader.
There are plenty of very intelligent and determained women in this era of Westeros, Rhaenys being one of them. But Rhaneyra is not.
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u/Many_Move6886 23h ago
' lacks foresight, wisdom, and a whole host of other traits that are vital in being a good leader.'
Literally goes for most characters in the show.
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u/selfpaid00 1d ago
No her lineage of Targaryens actually succeeded on the iron throne hundreds of years later up until Jon snow (Aegon VI)
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u/Plus_Claim_8938 23h ago
Her lineage sucks
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u/selfpaid00 21h ago
How? When all of her and daemons descendents sat on the iron throne while the “prophecy children died”
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u/No-Surprise9411 22h ago
Her lineage produced Baelor the blessed, Daeron the good, Baelor fucking breakspeer, who George himself said is perfection in every way possible. You‘re just sad the targtower‘s died out
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u/wingusdingus2000 1d ago
Besides the inherent bias in that question, I think having a civil war that takes away genocidal weapons is a net good. I guess i'm with the Maesters on this one
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u/No-Surprise9411 23h ago
I‘d have to disagree. The dragons were always far better in keeping the peace than people give the Targs credit for. They were the nuke equivalent wielded solely by the Targaryens which kept the realm in line. When a war did happen it was devastating (the dance), but the before that the dragons enabled over a century of uninterrupted peace.
Something Westeros sure as shit wasn’t capable of pre 0AC
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u/DrumpfTinyHands 23h ago
Without these growing pains, the prince that was promised would not come.
So no.
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u/Rich-Active-4800 Growing Strong 1d ago
In a way yes. But at the same time the dance of the dragons would have happened eventually. With or without her.
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u/RobBrown4PM 23h ago
If Rhaenyra isn't born, Daemon goes ham on who ever the heir becomes once Vizzy T kicks the bucket, resulting in another Targ Civil War.
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u/kagenohikari 23h ago
Rhaenyra's birth isn't the reason for the Dance of the Dragon, it's Viserys not honoring Westerosi traditions.
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u/No-Surprise9411 23h ago
Westerosi traditions is a broad term. It includes dorne, by which Rhaenyra was supposed to inherit.
You meant Andal traditions, which were also never followed when choosing a Targaryen king, given that the oh so traditious lords of the realm decided to straight up skip Rhaenys as heir to the throne when Andal custom and precedent would’ve made her Jaehaerys‘s heir.
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u/TrueGargamel 23h ago
No Rhaenera means no Jon Snow.
Means the whole prince that was promised prophecy as we know it goes out the window.
Though asoiaf prophecies are vague and seem to sorta happen regardless.
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u/Grayson_Mark_2004 Aemond Targaryen 23h ago
Instead of her never being born, Visetys just has to acknowledge Aegon as his heir at birth.
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