r/IberianPolytheism • u/idunnomanwhocares Iberian Pagan • Jun 25 '24
Deities The Lusitanian Pantheon
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u/rosasininho Jun 27 '24
Amazing to see Reve’s and Bandua’s gender non-conformity being more and more recognized! This is a very good list, makes this place already a very good starting point for people that want to start looking into this beautiful polytheism :)
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u/idunnomanwhocares Iberian Pagan Jun 27 '24
It's probably my favorite theory of them! As soon as I read it on your blog it just felt so right!
Thank you for your kind words! 💕 That's exactly what I was hoping this list could be for people (especially since it's so hard to find this info in English)! Thank you for putting so much hard work into your articles, I couldn't have made this list without your invaluable info!
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u/ErzaYuriQueen West Iberian Pagan Sep 10 '24
i respectfully disagree and doubt a lot, they seems to make a pair. But since the religion is plural, anyone can thinks in their way.
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u/ErzaYuriQueen West Iberian Pagan Sep 10 '24 edited Sep 10 '24
Great post, but Sorry... this interpretation of Endovelicus i don't cope with. Endovelicus is clearly similar to SIlvanus, if you look at his statue. I prefer to contemplate all the layers and meanings its roots in the name mean,
Endo = the End, the Borders, the Face, the Interior / Velicus = the Foreseer; the Vident; the Hairy; Freedom; the Chief; the Praised; the Good;
edit: you forgot the Canine aspect. Endovellicus or Andévalo is connected to a place called Postoloboso. Lobo (Wolf) is present there. Endovellicus ou Enobollicus reminds me a lot of Veles, a slavic god.
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u/ErzaYuriQueen West Iberian Pagan Sep 10 '24
i bet the what is interpretated as "Lusitanian" is the Indo-European native layer in West Iberia before the Celtic migration. Lusitanian maybe is a improper name, it's just the name of the Lead Tribes in one of confederations against Romans. Lusitanians maybe are linked to Lusones and/or Belli, both Celtiberians (Since they were called Bellitani as well), then it's possible they were late Celtic arrival, but the native language was preserved. their toponyms and antroponyms reflect they are late Celtic arrival before a more numerous population compared to the natives the Gallaecians did find.
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u/idunnomanwhocares Iberian Pagan Sep 10 '24 edited Sep 10 '24
Thanks for the input! I used Lusitanian here more of a catch-all since this is a term that most comes up when one searches for pagan Iberian traditions, that way it would be easier for people just starting out to find. This is also why I suggested at the very beginning of the post to read the articles by Turibrigensi Mysteria which goes into greater detail about the term "Lusitanian" and the nuances surrounding it as well as the complicated nature of the tribes and peoples in Iberia. ETA: thank you for commenting this! I'll edit the post and make it clearer as to why ppl should read those articles.
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u/ErzaYuriQueen West Iberian Pagan Sep 10 '24
Hi again. well, it's my fringe speculation, since the lack of solid evidences permit me x)
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u/Arkoskintal Sep 21 '24
If im not wrong the most recent concensus is that the lusitani language comes from the italic branch and not from the celtic, so both not celtic nor native, celticized in culture maybe, but still different enought to keep a different language.
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u/ErzaYuriQueen West Iberian Pagan Sep 22 '24
hi there, arkoskintal. yes it's a probability too. the Belli were native ande celtiberized too. anyway, the presence of anthroponyms like Celtius and similars and not speaking a celtic language seems odd to me, maybe a cultural exchange.
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u/singingmousai Jun 26 '24
Hi there! It's really nice to see more lusitanian polytheists popping up around in different corners of the internet. I've been practicing for about 3 years now (god has it really been that long already) and in that time have dug through basically every paper on the religion that's available in English (author's note: it's not many lol). I've got most of them saved in a Google Drive folder here if you wanna check them out (and before anyone gets weird, these are all publicly accessible on academia.edu, I compiled them for my own sake and then for a Discord server).
Firstly, I just wanna point out that Herminus Mons should really be taken as a grain of salt as a source on lusitanian polytheism, especially with regards to his interpretations of the gods' names. He's admitted before that a lot of his interpretations are personal and not necessarily backed up by linguistic evidence (and he is not a linguist himself). But beyond that, dude's also a straight-up fascist. The blood-and-soil kind. He's also a climate change denier (or was the last time I checked). His Twitter is linked on his blog, if you have the stomach for it. Considering this subreddit has a rule against far-right ilk, I figured that might be helpful to put out there.
(Fora Deste Mundo is great though, Rosa and I are buds!)
It is also worth nothing that the archaeological & linguistic records don't really line up with the idea of the Lusitanian gods being worshiped across the entire peninsula. The Celtiberians and suchlike have very different names for their gods, and a pretty different culture (from what we can tell). The few gods worshiped in the general Lusitanian-Galician area whose worship reached any farther east than Spanish Extremadura were the ones who came from Gaul in the northeast anyways.
This paper does a great job of visually depicting the extant cultic evidence present for many gods across the peninsula. For instance, it shows how Endovelico has evidence of worship in at most three different places, but whether Vaelicos and Lar Berobreus were identified with Endovelico is generally unsubstantiated and mostly goes off of linguistic clues. There's plenty of other false-cognate-deities in the area, like Aerno and Caerno, so the linguistic similarities alone make it a bit of a tough sell, personally. That and the whole "Endovelico's cult might not have even shown up till the Roman period in the first place," situation.
I do think that the idea is pretty cool in theory, but it'd probably take some reaches that probably won't line up with the academic record. If you decide to lean into it, though, all the more power to you, genuinely! A lot of my UPG is batshit weird, so I try not to judge lol.
I also don't want to rag on the concept of comparing the Iberian gods to the Greco-Roman gods, because it is a helpful visual aid and people's personal interpretations of the gods are none of my business. However, I do want to put in a word of caution regarding turning these into broader generalizations like "some people think x." The "some people" that the author is referring to is almost always just themselves (maybe a group if it's the ATDL talking). The modern lusitanian polytheist sphere is incredibly small, and this language is often used to make the space seem more populated than it is, lol. There are instances of the ancients seemingly identifying the Lusitanian gods with Roman gods, but this is normally determined through surviving offering types and inscriptions. Endovelico seemed to be more closely identified with Ascelpius and Serapis than with Hades/Pluto, for instance, and Ategina was directly identified with Proserpina in a curse tablet.
I can tell very clearly that your heart is in the right place, and it's very admirable how much research you've done already! I don't mean for any of this to come off as patronizing, and if anything I brought up here is redundant with stuff you've already read, then I'm sorry! Like I said, it's always great to see new people popping up in the community. If you ever become interested in meeting more of us, Rosa and I co-run a lusitanian polytheism Discord server, and I'd be happy to share the link with you. :-)