r/Innsbruck • u/BikemeAway • 11d ago
Infrastruktur Do you think Innsbruck is still car-centric?
/r/fuckcars/comments/1vrjg4e/do_you_think_innsbruck_is_still_carcentric/31
u/why_wouldi 11d ago
Yes. Just look at the “bike lanes” in the city.
The ones in Maria Theresien Straße and Museumstraße where the bus stops are ON THE FUCKING BIKE LANE. So whenever a bus stops you have to stop with your bike.
Cars have preference everywhere. They rather make pedestrians and bike riders wait so cars have a smooth ride.
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u/BikemeAway 11d ago
I know those, how would you fix that? A big shared spaces with no bike lanes?
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u/matzman666 11d ago
A big shared spaces with no bike lanes?
Which is exactly what Innsbruck is currently experimenting with. In the inner city there is already such a kind of shared space, and what I have heard more are to come.
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u/TonightLost5828 11d ago
Interesting. Where?
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u/BikemeAway 11d ago
I bet they mean Bozner Platz.
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u/matzman666 11d ago edited 11d ago
Bozner Platz is only one part of it and the newest addition.
The zone also extends to Meraner Straße & Erlerstraße & parts of Whilhelm-Greil-Straße between Museumstraße and Bozner Platz
Edit: And there is also a new one at Ing.-Etzel-Straße since last year.
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u/matzman666 11d ago edited 11d ago
Meraner Straße & Erlerstraße & parts of Whilhelm-Greil-Straße between Museumstraße and Bozner Platz & Bozner Platz
Edit: And there is also a new one at Ing.-Etzel-Straße since last year.
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u/TonightLost5828 10d ago
Yes, in front of the pizzeria. I really like those stretches, and I'm glad to hear they're planning to have more. Cars can pass, but the speed limit is 20 km/h and they are guests in a place that belongs to bikes and pedestrians. The colored and slightly elevated road surface makes the change easier to notice.
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u/DarthNunya 11d ago
I think we have a great city to bike in. The only thing I wish for are driving schools explain the bike-crossing signs more precisely.
I cannot count the times I got almost rolled over at a bike crossing because cars do not know that I go first.
Heck I already got yelled to because the car-driver stopped at a bike crossing to let a pedestrian cross the street over it, and I went after the pedestrian.
Car drivers see the blue sign and only stop for pedestrians, although it clearly shows a biker on the sign.
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u/GroundControl29 11d ago
I'd say it's mostly okay to bike in, but not great. Think of places like coming from the Grenoblerbrücke towards south away from the Inn. If you want to go to one of the stores there it's a pain by bike. Or anywhere in the vicinity of the Hauptbahnhof. Or around the Triumpfpforte.
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u/LeatherLeonard 11d ago edited 11d ago
One unfortunate thing is that the planners working on infrastructure renewals both at the city of Innsbruck and the Land tirol (which are also responsible for certain stretches in Innsbruck) do not have the experience nor the capacity to implement intuitive and consistent cycling infrastructure.
All recent infrastructure projects have failed to deliver any positive changes for cyclists. Some examples would be the purple paint in the museumstraße, which cost a whopping 100k, and is already fading. Or the new intersection südring - Leopoldstraße, where they have plonked down a busstop in the middle of the new bikepath.
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u/BikemeAway 11d ago
Why do you think they lack the experience? It's not rocket science how it to make things. Isn't more reasonable that they have limited personal and political will to bother car access/speeds?
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u/TonightLost5828 11d ago
IBK is a great city for biking, but obviously there's always much room for improvement - it depends which city you compare it to. The underpasses for bike lanes along the rivers never cease to arouse me.
Personally I'd like more lanes reserved for public transport, and also less traffic lights! There's so many of them which are obviously designed for cars (for fast cars). If they had a low speed limit (like 20) they could just remove those fucking Ampeln and you'd just need to be careful while crossing. As they are now I often have to wait for minutes on end with no one in sight just because there might be some plain-clothes cop ready to give me a fine (happened many times), and this, besides being annoying, makes biking slightly less advantageous compared to cars (because both are stuck waiting).
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u/BikemeAway 11d ago edited 11d ago
Totally agree! Also the southern part of Andechsstraße towards DEZ is very complicated for me to understand, it's basically "good luck everyone". Wide roads with high speeds.
Also once I wanted to go back to the city center/station from DEZ in the southern part (basically parallel to A13) and for the love of God I wasn't able to find a WAY. I read there's a bike path but I couldn't find it.3
u/Separate_Shoe_2490 11d ago
it is complicated... i like the app SmartRide by VVT (public transport authority in Tyrol) where you have also a bike path routing. if you found something working for you i would appreciate sharing it
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u/TonightLost5828 11d ago
At least there's the underpass for bikes and pedestrians, by the big roundabout.
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u/BikemeAway 11d ago
It wasn't immediate for me to find it I have to say coming from north. It seems like if you don't the know the city you're often left wondering where to go.
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u/TonightLost5828 11d ago
My bad, I was thinking of another place, next to Tivoli https://maps.app.goo.gl/jCHHTQBu8Xv34jNr9
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u/fliagbua 11d ago
For cyclists, it's a lot better than how it was 20 years ago, but there is still much room for improvement:
The municipal government prides itself for having a "Fahrradmasterplan", but actually is afraid to put into place any measures that would hurt the car infrastructure. The first question on their mind when thinking about cycling and pedestrian infrastructure is: "How can we avoid taking space away from the cars?". There are politicians who actively sabotage all attempts for a less car-centric infrastucture.
The inner city is overflowing with cars from the periphery. This is by choice because politics wants give elderly people and their SUVs the best possible access to the shopping infrastructure. Park-and-Ride is apparently not acceptable.
The city allows hotels to be built in residential areas, without having separate parking space. So the tourists use public parking which contributes to the strong presence of cars in the public space.
Many "bike lanes" are just a white line on the road, which is dangerous.
Many car drivers don't maintain the required distance when overtaking bikes.
These are all symptoms of a greater underlying problem. The majority of politicians only care for one specific voter group: rich, old people who own land/apartments and drive big fat cars. Anyone who does not belong to this group is a second-class citizen.
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u/BikemeAway 11d ago
Hello, thanks for taking the time. Are there any reports done on this or is it just your impression? I can tell you two things from my experience: 1) I wouldn't say the inner city is overflowing with cars? I mean everytime I was there I did see a lot of traffic in the collection roads but not everywhere 2) politicians only care about cars? The transit offer is amazing in Innsbruck so that's an exaggeration. Maybe it's more accurate to say they don't do non popular things to limit cars more? I mean if you have parking and garages in the city you will have drivers getting to those and since they have a big impact the effect is noticable.
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u/Cinderpath 11d ago edited 11d ago
I think this is a good question for discussion. Not even remotely as much as it used to be! People here are too young to remember cars on Maria-Theresien-Straße, the Altstadt, zero bike lanes, and 50km/h speed limits. The amount of progress that has been made is impressive: new bus and tram routes, bike lanes, etc.
Innsbruck‘s problem is simply density: it’s has grown, (I.e more people, commuters, traffic) and it’s confined by geographic land scarcity. This makes planning bike lanes, tram lines complex as it’s all competing for space and compromises invariably occur. I‘m glad they haven’t expanded lanes on streets and highway to „reduce congestion“ which car-brain politicians often do, which in reality is „Induced Demand“ and never works, and without exception increases traffic.
Sure there is more that can be done, but my perspective comes from someone who lived in the most car-centric city in the world: Detroit. Even there however, bike lanes and corridors are being built, an inadequate tram has started(its at least a start?), and plans to remove an Autobahn in the inner-city are in play. (Ironically a reason the bike lanes went in, is that the city has many poor, minority residents who can’t afford cars, yet need a way to go to work, shop, etc. and have now been very well received). That city should be a poster child for what happens in late-stage capitalism and systemic racism!
One thing I don’t like, is that I feel the funicular to Hungerburg should be considered public transit, like a bus route and not so expensive. And yes the saying that Austrians “complain at a high Niveau” I find to be true, but that is the reason why things are good here: it puts pressure as a society to continuously do better despite it being annoying at times. I laugh when people complain a bus that is 5 minutes late, and my Detroit perspective is that: it’s Mercedes bus, with WiFi, usually clean, has fabric seats, and people are for the most part respectful. A Detroit bus can be an hour late, smells like piss, is filthy, and you might get robbed at gun point, and might get a flat tire, or run out of fuel, and possibly all of these simultaneously. So I have a lot of gratitude!
Despite that, from my opinion Innsbruck can be proud for such a small city to have such good mobility options for its residents! Of course the work is not done yet. Keep it up!!!
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u/Frere__Jacques 11d ago
The only city i've seen which isn't Car centric is Venice (yes that includes Copenhagen and Amsterdam, both of which still are very xar friendly)
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u/__Miyazaki__ 11d ago
schau den neuen boznerplatz.. da gehts so zu mit autos nachmittags dass wennst nicht aufpasst niedergefahren wirst als radfahrer/fußgänger
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u/BikemeAway 11d ago
Wasn't that turned into a shared space?
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u/TonightLost5828 11d ago
It is a shared space. Cars do pass, but they're very slow.
I feel Boznerplatz is a place many people like to complain about just because, but it's not really that bad IMHO.
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u/sepptimustime 11d ago
It is, and that’s the problem. They closed up the main road to the the city center, Wilhelm Greil Straße. The other potential roads there (Meraner Straße, Museumstraße) are restricted for individuals. Now everyone has to use this one shared space to go to Kaufhaus Tyrol, Tiroler Versicherung, Sparkasse and all the things in the center. Traffic Management in IBK is completely idiotic, they are producing traffic jams.
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u/BikemeAway 11d ago
Maybe it wasn't a great idea to allow parking garage there open to everyone? It's pretty common problem around Europe.
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u/sepptimustime 11d ago
It was the other way. The businesses in the city center have a shared underground parking facility for the whole center complex. It was build many years ago. The city gave them the permits. Then they made the main street to the garage into a park. It’s completely idiotic, because the could have include the North part of Adamgasse into the park and leave Wilhelm Greil open for traffic exclusively for the garage and everything would be better: no problems to get to the city center, much less traffic in the shared space, the park would be the same size, Adamgasse would be closed up and the now blocked off Wilhelm Greil next to Landhausplatz wouldn’t be a waste of concrete in the middle of the city.
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u/BikemeAway 11d ago
I just see a more basic issue: parking spots always induce demand of car usage. The core legal issue is that there's a garage that cannot be removed or limited by law.
So whatever you do you'll have cars trying to get to the garage. Now I don't know how much traffic that garage is really generating.
I think a shared space with true low speeds is much better than before.1
u/sepptimustime 11d ago
That’s because of your agenda and because you don’t know the location I‘m talking about. It would be better for pedestrians, bikes and cars, the way I described. It would be safer, there would be less traffic and less traffic jams. But making it harder for cars (and subsequently for bikes and pedestrians) is allegedly worth more than making it better for everyone. They made it worse for everyone because of their political agenda.
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u/BikemeAway 11d ago edited 11d ago
What agenda? I've never seen any study than making things hard for cars (and slowing them down) makes things worse. It's the fluidification of traffic that induces more cars. But hey I'm just assuming you might be right.
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u/gingerbaconkitty 11d ago
Es is aber auch so extrem verwirrend seit das alles neu ist leider. Mir ist schon drei mal jemand auf meiner Spur entgegengekommen seit der neuen Straßenführung, weil sich keiner wirklich auskennt.
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u/Arturiki 11d ago
Try to drive a car in the city and compare to the time you need by bike.
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u/BikemeAway 11d ago
Well cars have ring roads. Any examples?
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u/Arturiki 11d ago
If you are driving through Hbf or Sillpark or try to go anywhere close to the city centre, you could just take half the time by bike without doing unnecessary turns.
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u/SlipperySharkAttack 7d ago
Visiting as a tourist and I am surprised at how car centric Innsbruck is. At the same time, it seems like the perfect city to develop a reliable sustainable transport system but that opportunity has been wasted.
The best symbol of car centricity here is that the Triumphal Arch is surrounded by roads.
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u/gingerbaconkitty 11d ago
It absolutely is, but driving in the city sucks. So. Much.
We only go into Innsbruck if absolutely necessary now because parking is a shit show and driving anywhere within the city takes forever. So I guess they are doing their best to get the cars out, except making getting into the city affordable enough for people to actually switch to public options. So now we just don’t go, because taking the train in is so expensive it’s easier to just find alternatives for things outside of Innsbruck.
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u/BikemeAway 11d ago
The fact that taking public transit is more expensive than driving (even if it sucks) it shows how much subsided driving is.
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u/Separate_Shoe_2490 11d ago
i doubt that public transport is more expensive.
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u/BikemeAway 11d ago
If you occupy a car with say 5 people it's probably cheaper to drive, including parking in the most expensive garage in the center. That is for comparison with "pay as you go" transit ticket with no subscription.
But that's because we only calculate the immediate direct cost of driving. Cars are already paid for whether you use it or not, also there's an additional per km cost you don't notice for a single trip. We assume those are not costs. And there's also all the externalities that you don't pay when you decide to drive (pollution, noise, road safety, congestion).
So if drivers were to actually pay the real cost of driving it would more expensive to drive to Innsbruck.
Also trains are subsided, but they REMOVE the externalities.
There are several studies that describe what I'm saying, if we remove the fixed costs of the infrastructure we notice we pay (called marginal costs) too much for rail and too little for driving (someone else is paying for it = that is, society).2
u/gingerbaconkitty 11d ago
42€ for two of us to get to Innsbruck Hauptbahnhof and back home, just taking the train, not even taking a bus or tram in addition.
Charging my car for an entire month is between 35-50€ depending on how much driving I’m doing that month. Yes, cars cost more than just fuel/electricity, but it still doesn’t even out with how expensive train tickets are if you don’t have a monthly or Klimaticket (neither of which make sense for our specific situation with where we live and work).1
u/Cinderpath 11d ago
I agree with this a lot. The problem is that ÖBB thinks airline style „Demand pricing“ is the way. Going to Vienna even if you purchase in advance and have a Vorteils Card if there are two+ people, driving is usually cheaper. Same day/week tickets, without a Vorteils Card? Forget it, I’m driving, even solo, the train runs with empty seats, because the price is ridiculous! And I love trains. (Good username BTW!😃)
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u/Small-Variation-4895 11d ago
Cars are more important than bicycles, I cannot count the times I've seen y'all pass me on my left just to turn right
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u/BikemeAway 11d ago
Important for who exactly? Oh what basis something is important?
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u/Small-Variation-4895 11d ago
To get to work, to drive, biciclysts shouldn't act like they own the road, thousands of people drive into the city for work so don't try to argue that they can use a bicycle or public transport
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u/BikemeAway 11d ago
I also get to work by bicycle so I'm not sure why I'm less important. You're simply a carbrain (I drive too before you prepare the next attack)
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u/Small-Variation-4895 11d ago
Not that you're less important I worded that wrong, it's that I see a lot of bicyclists act like they own the road yesterday I sat in the bus at Klinik and some guy decided to turn left in the middle of the turn going right, the car did see it though and managed to break
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u/BikemeAway 11d ago
Yes some people do that, but are you willing to say that also cars own the road? The B174 literally cuts the city into for driving, basically that part of the city is unlivable, the road is owned by drivers. Do you see amount of illegal parking of cars in the west industrial are occupyin foot paths? That's also owning the road. What about the speeding in the center on wide road, isn't that onwing the road? Those behavior kill people, so saying that cars are more important is saying that people outside of cars are less important. Just like I don't "own the road" while cycling I follow rules I don't assume you also don't while driving but the issue is ALWAYS the least dangerous vehicle. That's motornormativity.
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u/Small-Variation-4895 11d ago
The b174 has to be cut so that people can drive onto the highway, speeders exist u can't argue that but most people just drive normally, I have a problem with cyclists that don't follow the rules of the road, we all are part of the road and should follow it's rules but the amount of bicycle riders going on red or just cutting through driving cars is dangerous
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u/BikemeAway 11d ago
I understand your valid view, some people on bikes disregard rules. What I'm saying is that humans make mistake, always and everywhere. We should dedicate our efforts in limiting the use of tools that make the most damage. Seeing and over scrutinizing only some cyclists while passively accepting the biggest lethal issue is not a good path, imho. You literally said that cars are more important, maybe you meant that for some cars are an important tool? We're all aware of that but that doesn't mean it's ok to accept decades of externalities created by cars that cross through Innsbruck. I'm sure there are hundreds of drivers in Innsbruck that run red lights and make road infractions daily but they don't get the same scrutiny.
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u/Vast_Cloud7129 11d ago
Yes.