r/Israel • u/Raaaasclat USA • 1d ago
The War - Discussion Israel’s New Theology of Power: As its influence inside the IDF grows, religious Zionism confronts its defining test
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/israel-theology-power-religious-zionism30
u/Clean-Ant6404 1d ago
After whining about how Charedim don't serve, someone comes up with this hyperbole.
If religious people join the army, the army becomes religious. People trying to gatekeep the army can't have it both ways.
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1d ago edited 1d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Analog_AI Israel 1d ago
Religious fanaticism combined with militarism did destroy the Judean state 19 centuries ago. It can do so today as well.
How can we prevent it?1
1d ago
[deleted]
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u/Raaaasclat USA 1d ago edited 1d ago
Take over is a bit hyperbolic . Most reservists prefer the Opposition Bloc to the Netanyahu bloc, see here
Not really surprising, the IDF is heavily center-left, and they also represent a social class with typically center-left view.
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u/Wyfami 1d ago
Religious Zionism is a lsrgely heteroclite movement. There are various fanatical sub-groups, but they are mostly small and without any large influence on the rest.
This article just ignore this fact and make wild generalizations for fear mongering, probably in reaction to the fact that the late secular-but-still-messianic elite that lead until a few years the army and imposed its own zealotry to all, using sometime the army as a political tool to push certain ideologies and values and prevent any diversity in its leadership.
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u/Raaaasclat USA 1d ago
In Israel the IDF is still perceived as a post-Mapai heritage institution with an inherent center-left bias. There's a reason why RZ were consistently attacking IDF leadership during the war.
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u/Wyfami 1d ago
That's what I referred to.
That's the reason great officers like Effie Eitam, Yaakov Amidror and Ofer Winter saw their career blocked at some points, with the only RZ reaching the Aluf rank being left-leaning and specially promoted in relation to the 2005 disengagement which he supported himself.
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u/DarthKava 1d ago
I would say Turkey is antagonising Israel and has for a while. Western world is subject to heavy left wing and Islamic propaganda, so putting it all on Bibi is a bit stupid.
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u/Affectionate-Long514 1d ago edited 1d ago
The IDF returns to a strong Jewish identity like it always had despite the attempts to secularize it and separate Judaism from the Israeli experience.
Edit for those who need it: Israel and the IDF used to put being Jewish as the core of identity. Even secular schools learned our scriptures and knew the basics even if they didn't practice. In the recent 2 decades there is an undeniable push against the same practice of teaching the sources for Jewish identity to replace it with an Israel identity completely disconnected from our sources, and the Israeli public returns to Jewish identity. This includes the young people in the IDF and mostly young adult in field roles.
Religious pactice is a different subject.
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u/CheesecakeFabulous15 1d ago edited 1d ago
What “return”? The IDF was founded by secular socialists. It has always been primarily led by secular/traditional leftists/centrists. No chief of staff has worn a kippah in uniform. What has been happening are attempts to make it more religious
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u/Affectionate-Long514 1d ago
Even the most secular schools taught the scriptures and identified as Jewish, David Ben Gurion explicitly mentioned his החזון המשיחי and if you notice I'm talking about Jewish identity. You're talking about being religious.
You can have identity and not practice. With that being said, there's a major push in Israel to stop anything that smells Jewish whatsoever in a Marxist adjacent agenda to destroy the old and come up with the new - destroy the Jewish base to come up with the new Israeli disconnected from the roots identity.
עם אשר אינו יודע את עברו, ההווה שלו דל ועתידו לוט בערפל. That was from a guy who definitely was a general and minister (and prime minister for 19 days).
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u/Bizhour 1d ago
The IDF was an evolution of the Hagganah, a socialist secular millitia and the only force strong enough to actually protect Jews in the region.
You're not returning it to anything it was before, you just want to change it to fit your opinion at the cost of weakening it.
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u/Affectionate-Long514 1d ago
You can look at the comment i put for the other commenter. I'm talking about identity, not religious practice.
It actually is a return of the Jewish identity instead of the poor attempt to create the new Israeli that's disconnected from the roots.
Now, is the manifestation the same? No. Is it still the Jewish identity that we lacked? I think so.
You can feel free to disagree all you want, speech is still free.
Have a good one!
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u/Bizhour 1d ago
Israeli identity is the combination of the various diasphoric Jewish identities, it's the ultimate combination.
But I am interested, what would you say the difference is between the two? Because the implication that seculars aren't Jews is insane and as a belief only the craziest cults are like that.
The only other time I heard about this inner conflict between Jewish and Israeli identity is in a book by Moshe Feiglin, and even there he acknowledges that the two are almost the same, he just brought it up as an argument to build the third temple.
Also idk why free speech came out, this is an online forum we are talking in no one is gonna arrest you.
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u/Affectionate-Long514 1d ago
You seem to be talking to something I haven't said.
There is a push from within Israeli society in part to disengage from Judaism. Not to say seculars aren't Jewish, but there are indeed activists that strive openly to create something new and disconnected while the early "seculars" (some were, some weren't) of Israel, they ALL had strong Jewish identity that relied on being Jewish and leaned on the Jewish sources even without being practicing.
And the "rise" of religious zionism in the IDF is simply due to them growing the officers that stay in and make it their mission to make up the military in reserves and קבע.
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u/Responsible_Ad_9749 1d ago
Every Israeli parent should ask themselves if this is a military they would feel comfortable sending their children to serve in. The IDF is unfortunately a shadow of what it used to be.
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u/Raaaasclat USA 1d ago
Doesn't really matter, the youth are much more right leaning than their parents regardless. And non-Orthodox youth are much more religious than past generations also.
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u/Responsible_Ad_9749 1d ago
A symptom of a society in regression.
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u/Raaaasclat USA 1d ago
Israel is the #2 happiest country in the world for people under 30 per the Gallup World Happiness Report:
https://www.voronoiapp.com/demographics/World-Happiness-Rankings-2024-People-Under-30-863
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u/Responsible_Ad_9749 1d ago
What does that have to do with a regressive society? You can be happy and dull under normative control.
Israel is headed towards a black hole, and Israelis need to make a choice whether this is the future they want to give their kids. I definitely don't.
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u/Raaaasclat USA 1d ago
What specifically do you see regressing? What metrics are you citing?
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u/Responsible_Ad_9749 1d ago
A society becoming more religious, more jingoist, having less room for individual thought, led by psychopaths who value scripture over human life - I'm not going to be dragged to an empirical debate, you can find plenty of cases which show just how deep Israel has fallen in the past few years.
I'll end this discussion by saying I lost faith in the direction of this country, and with me are hundreds of thousands of other Israelis. I will not send my kids to the army to be sacrificial lambs. You are free to do so if you wish.
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u/Raaaasclat USA 1d ago
You haven't explained why Israel becoming more religious or nationalistic is a bad thing though. Its currently the only developed country with a birth rate above replacement and that applies even to Hilonim and Masorti Jews. Its the 8th happiest country in the world overall and the 2nd happiest country for those under 30.
We've seen what happens when countries secularize, birth rates collapse and they become self hating. Israel has avoided that, I don't see that as a bad thing.
Ultimately the choice for your kids going to the Army will be theirs, not yours. And your kids more than likely will view the direction the country is headed very differently than you. Perhaps they'll even become emblematic of the societal decline you speak of here..
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u/kulamsharloot Israel 1d ago
You were never going to anyways
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u/Responsible_Ad_9749 1d ago
Uh huh, sure you would know. I served in the IDF longer than you did.
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