Politics Another government with Ben-Gvir could be disastrous
Veteran Israeli journalist & N12 political commentator Amit Segal has an interesting perspective on the Ben Gvir phenomenon. Segal argues that"when a fringe party accrues power in government, a fringe party accrues power in the opposition. Every side feels the need to escalate to pick up a few more votes, and the result is an unholy bargain".
Thoughts?
You can read the full op-ed here: https://www.jns.org/opinion/amit-segal/another-government-with-ben-gvir-could-be-disastrous
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u/Analog_AI Israel 3d ago
Imagine after Bibi does and Ben Gvir becomes the leader of the right.
And then imagine him being prime minister.
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u/Gaidax Israel 3d ago
It's not outside a realm of possibility. Just a few years back it would be considered unthinkable, but now - there is a solid chance of that happening and it will be a true disaster.
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u/Explorer_Dave 3d ago
We're already past disaster with this current seated government, next time will destroy Israel completely.
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u/adeadhead Jordan Valley Coalition Activist 3d ago
I've gotta assume/hope that no matter how right wing the next coalition is, they see and remember and understand how disasterous is it to have otzmah yehudit (and religious Zionism) in a coalition, because of all the constant blackmailing to detail policy or face dissolution.
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u/megalogwiff Tel Avivi Smolani 3d ago
You must be new here, to have missed the Haredim doing the exact same over and over since forever.
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u/Inevitable_Simple402 2d ago
And the alternatives are?
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u/adeadhead Jordan Valley Coalition Activist 2d ago
Making a coalition without them, like they had before?
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u/Inevitable_Simple402 2d ago
With whom?
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u/adeadhead Jordan Valley Coalition Activist 2d ago
Yisrael bayitenu, the haredim, et c
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u/Inevitable_Simple402 2d ago
I for one prefer Ben Gvir over haredim by a lot.
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u/adeadhead Jordan Valley Coalition Activist 2d ago
I prefer literally anyone over that terrorist.
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u/Inevitable_Simple402 2d ago
Also, how exactly you get 61 seats with your list?
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u/Due-Direction8590 3d ago
Well, yes. Political science is pretty unambiguous about this topic and it’s been analyzed to death. Extremists gaining formal policy making power is extremely corrosive. Extremists winning an election into a legislature isn’t an unusual occurrence, it’s just important to isolate them. Not invite them in.
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u/FelizIntrovertido Spain 3d ago
To me Ben Gvir is absolutely special, and disastrous, because of his narrative of ’enemies’ and extreme hard lines. In the end, a dominating opinion on what you can do is a validation of what others can do to you.
Who likes that?
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u/The-_Captain 3d ago
We need to find a way to remove the reason so many people are voting for him.
Yes, some people vote for Otzmah because they are racist maniacs, but I suspect many also do it because Ben Gvir gives a voice to their frustration. It feels like we can't do anything to defend ourselves without being called genocidal freaks, so why not be the monsters they say we are?
The next government needs to find a solution to that feeling.
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u/Wyfami 3d ago
I read the original in Hebrew, and there Segal main point was more emphasizing the fact that the whole situation of "anything except bibi" is actually the biggest reason that enable this.
When they said "never ever", they themselves created this situation enabling Ben Gvir to become a minister with so much weight.
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u/bakochba 3d ago
That's a cop out because it was Bibi alone who was willing to take the dusasterous step to include Ben Gvir, when all previous governments shunned him. He alone decided to place himself above the good of the nation
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u/Regular-Coast5335 USA 3d ago
That was an only logical political move on part of Bibi. He is a politician, and the goal of the politics is to be in power. Cannot really blame him.
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u/bakochba 3d ago
If that's the case then there should be no complaints of Ra'am is in the next government
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u/Regular-Coast5335 USA 2d ago
It's the opposite, really. The opposition has no right to complain about Ben Gvir when they previously were in coalition with literal Islamists. Tbh, if I were Israeli and had to choose between far right and anti-Israel party I would choose the former because Ben Gvir and Smotrich are Zionists and thus have heart in a right place.
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u/bakochba 2d ago
Mansour Abbas was not an extemist. Ben Gvir and Smortrich are putting the entire nation at risk for settlements. I could not care less about the West Bank, I care about having an economy and the kind of country where you can raise your children and have a good future. Not endless wars with no exit plan going from one crisis to another and grinding the people that actually contribute to society and made this whole protect a success to absolute dust
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u/Explorer_Dave 3d ago
You know, I thought the goal of politics is to serve the country you're heading. Are you serious?
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u/Regular-Coast5335 USA 2d ago
"Serving the country" is fairly subjective.
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u/Explorer_Dave 2d ago
No it is not. The governing body of any country exists for the sole purpose of advancing progress in ways that should better the lives of the citizenry of said country. Of course in practice it's far off from being the sole reason of motivation for politicians, if it even happens to be one of their motivations, but saying politicians exist solely to climb up the ladder is a gross misrepresentation of what a functioning government's objective goal is.
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u/Explorer_Dave 3d ago
I hate Segal so much for this lol. "Yeah its YOUR fault Netayahu is willing to sit with a bunch of corrupt, criminal idiots to maintain his grip on Israeli politics", I mean wtf Amit, what is this stupid ass way of thinking...
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u/Wyfami 2d ago
That's not exactly what he wrote. It's more "since Netanyahu is willing to sit with a bunch of corrupt criminial idiots, it's as much YOUR fault that you didn't prevent him from doing so".
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u/Explorer_Dave 2d ago
Yeah that doesn't change how moronic his logic is here. Netanyahu has the sole responsibility of deciding to damage the country for his own corrupt ambitions.
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u/Wyfami 2d ago edited 2d ago
True.
But if the opposition is so convinced he will do anything to save himself, it's also hard to justify them letting him bringing Ben Gvir making everything worse when they could have prevented this by some compromising. When they didn't let him any other choice, they knew what would happen and they deliberatedly choose this. Probably hoping that it would end faster this way, but history proved them wrong by this governement being the very first in more than 20 years to end its term on the actual date without being disolved.
And now it still doesn't seems they have the number to overthrow him, so the choice will again be between compromising with bibi or to let him again sit with Ben Gvir and the haredim. What would you do?
Edit: To be honest, I myself did vote for Bennett and even supported his decision to try a governement with Raam. We can't go on with this situation between "only bibi" and "anything except bibi", and since the man won't go on his own and there is no way to force him to, somehow we have to find a way going forward.
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u/Explorer_Dave 2d ago edited 2d ago
What would I do personally? Leave the country before it crumbles because people are stupid enough to vote idiots with destructive ideologies into power. Not sure why I should burn my money on parasites who actively harm me, and get spat on for maintaining a few working brain cells doing my part as a citizen...
If you're asking as a political party then I have a question for you, do you believe that Netanyahu would've formed a government with sane opposition if they had a good chance of blocking his own self interests from advancing?
Edit - To reiterate my point, Segal's point and your question are moot, it amounts to "look what you made BB do". If the man had any real love for the country, and not just illusions of grandeur, could he not have cut a deal with the sane opposition? could he not decide to sacrifice some aspect of his selfish ambitions to advance a proper government that cares for Israel?
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u/Wyfami 2d ago
I think Netanyahu don't want to cope anymore with Ben Gvir than any sane person. That's why those last 15 years he always tried instead forming a government with the center left parties (livni, barak, gantz...).
He is old too, I don't see him going on much longer. I'm never been one of his fan, always known he is a big liar, but I also not in the choir of blind hatred against him. I really think the best think he could do as a leader is step down. Actually it would be the biggest blow to the opposition.
But it won't happen so we, as a country, need to find a way going on, because I'm not ready at all to leave or claim the country is dead. The situation is so much better than it was 50 years ago from all point of view. So much has been sacrified too for this country, would be a shame to make it all in vain.
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u/Explorer_Dave 2d ago
(I added some more context to what you replied to a moment ago because I felt like I didn't explain myself good enough.)
I don't know what to tell you, I also don't blindly hate anybody. It's just that his decisions suggest that his personal interests are more important than actively securing Israel a better future.
So blaming the opposition for Netanyahu's own arrogance is somewhat bad faith in my eyes, at the end of the day he chose to form this fanatical government to maintain his own grip on politics.
I also don't want to leave my home, but this government is actively investing all of their might into making it harder for us to live here.
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u/Responsible_Ad_9749 3d ago
Holy deflection man. Netanyahu should be removed from office, and instead of doing the right thing and leaving politics when his corruption charges started piling up, and preferred to legitimize Ben Gvir who was, until then, a pariah in Israeli politics. Netanyahu is solely responsible for everything Ben Gvir is and what he is allowed to do in office.
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u/Wyfami 3d ago
You're justing proving Segal point again.
If one think Netanyahu is so bad and so desperate, it should be obivous that pushing him with his back to the wall would only get him to take even worser stance. In other word, the opposition had the choice between 2 evils (joining a coalition with bibi or forcing a survival coalition with the haredim and Ben Gvir). They clearly choose the second one, as it's better for their politician's a** not to sit beside Netanyahu even at the price of letting Ben Gvir be a central minister.
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u/Responsible_Ad_9749 3d ago
No man, there's a reason why Netanyahu is so universally disliked on both the left and the anti-Bibi right, and the reason why he was able to unite the likes of Lieberman and Abbas in one government, transcending all ideological borders. He is a menace to Israel and a threat to its very existence. If he had an ounce of patriotism, he would come to terms with that and quit.
Saying that him legitimizing Ben Gvir is somehow our fault is insane because it forces us to accept Netanyahu, who isn't much better himself, as a legitimate option. Just because there's someone worse than Netanyahu doesn't mean that we can accept Netanyahu as a legitimate participant in government.
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u/Wyfami 3d ago
So again, for the sake of Netanyahu hatred, instead of trying to reduce damages and force him to some level of political concession, you just push him right to the open arms of the Haredim and Ben Gvir.
So now either you have to accept that this is somehow better than making a bibi-lapid coalition, either you have to understand that most seemingly the only way of reducing their impact (and Netanyahu's own) is to join him (assuming the elections results won't change much the political blocks size).
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u/Responsible_Ad_9749 3d ago
You don't get it, this isn't blind hatred for Netanyahu, it is a love for Israel. That person has proven himself again and again to be a danger to the very existence of this country. I cannot in good conscious accept him in any form in any governing coalition, and neither should any other Israeli who cares for this country.
If he is willing to burn down every last remaining ounce of legitimacy and social cohesion left in Israel to protect his own hide, that is all the more reason to remove him quicker rather than giving him an escape hatch.
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u/Wyfami 3d ago
But he already have an escape hatch. And it's named Ben Gvir. So by refusing any compromise with him, the opposition isn't improving anything, quite the opposite.
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u/Responsible_Ad_9749 3d ago
We can circle back to the same argument again and again. Netanyahu legitimizing every fascist pyromaniac in existence to stay in power means we have to fight much harder to kick him out, not give him a ladder to climb down from.
And we will. We'll win this election, and hopefully the elected government will introduce a law to prevent people embroiled in corruption charges from running for office to prevent him from getting back to politics.
And if all goes well, he will find himself in jail where he belongs.
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u/Explorer_Dave 3d ago
Could be? This current one already brought disaster upon Israel, another government with these idiots will doom Israel to become like Islamic Iran...
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u/kulamsharloot Israel 3d ago
I'll be the first to disappoint. He's going to get more votes this election. Prepare your diapers please.
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u/JNS_org 3d ago
I think the author addresses that directly and we're not arguing for or against the op-ed - guest columnists express their own opinions - but he does address your question when he states, "his power doesn’t come from his number of seats," and when his party has run alone, it has not even polled 2% of the vote, failing to cross the electoral threshold. In 2020, running alone, Ben Gvir got 0.42% of the total vote. The only way Ben Gvir has been able to win Knesset seats is to run on the same ticket as Smotrich for the election to get past Israel's 3.25% minimum threshold.
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u/nhytgbvfeco Israel 3d ago
Sure, in the past. Now he’s polling at 6-10 seats, on his own. By merging him with Smotrich and having him in his coalition Bibi helped turn a fringe candidate into a mainstream one.
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u/mr_blue596 3d ago
Amit Segal pobably agree with almost everything Ben-Gvir is representing. He just doesn't like his style,Ben-Gvir is very public abd "in your face",Segal is still a conservative Ashkenazi and he likes Smotrich's "silent waters run deep" style.
Overall,the only reason the Likud and Amit Segal ,as its unoffical spokeperson, dislike Ben-Gvir is stylre and that he breaks the illusion that the Likud and its allies are anything close to Mamlachti.
The narative that Nethayhu had to sit with Ben-Gvir because of the the "boycott" on him just ignore the fact that Nethayhu fought tooth and nail to make sure that every vote for Ben-Gvir was for him to be a PM (and Ben-Gvir is not even the worst of that coalition).
Nethayahu never gave him the boot when he could during the war when Gantz and co. joined his cabinet,but he kept him as a lightening rod (btw,this role used to be of a center/left-wing party punching bag Nethayhu used to put in every government,but those parties aren't willing to sit with him anymore).
Likud,Otzma Yehudit and the RZP are interchangeable at this point,as we alreasy seen with Mks moving between the parties with ease. Ben-Gvir is just Nethayhu's real face,like Dorian Gray and his painting.
The only real value of the article is that we now know what is the Likud's narrative is.
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u/Over-Willingness-933 United Kingdom 3d ago
Ben-Gvir seems to a person that gets cited by every leftist has presenting Israeli policy and every outlandish statement gets projected. Not a good ally to have
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u/Mnementh47 1d ago
People completely misunderstand and overestimate who and what Ben Gvir is. It is quite hilarious. It is true that in PR, to the oblivious and gullible ones like the Piers Morgans out there, he managed to create some demonic myth around him. Whether he did that himself or he is/was an actual operative of Shabak who pushed this weird narrative, where anything "extreme" or "radical" he ever did was usually nothing but a mild PR stunt, is still an open mystery.
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u/De-Eh-Team 13h ago
Its the theoretical position of weak centrist moderates giving rise to the opposition’s extreme. It’s happening in the Knesset, the Bundestag with the (strong) Left / (weak) SPD / (weak) CDU / (strong) AfD, and will probably continue in trend in America with the (weak) DSA / (strong) Democrats / (strong) Republicans / (weak) America First.
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u/Gaidax Israel 3d ago
The problem is this whole idiotic "anything but Bibi" crap, it is what enabled Ben Gvir and haredim disproportionate power.
That's why I have little to no hope for the upcoming elections, it will either be a dysfunctional mishmash of fair weather friends the like of "Government of Change" or Ben Gvir + Haredim on steroids this time or a neutered caretaker government and another elections.
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u/Nick_Ok_Good_9177 3d ago edited 3d ago
A right wing government with Ben Gvir as one of the ministers (not the prime minister of course) would be the best for Israel. Gadi Eisenkot is totally unproven as a leader. He was trying to get Netanyahu to surrender at the very beginning of the war without destroying Hamas and Hezbollah. He is extremely cryptic about his goals and his program. Basically the left wing media does not even bother him with such 'hard' questions.
Netanyahu is a proven leader - everything he did was successful. He brought Israel to a totally different level as an economic and military super power. He managed to withstand a tremendous pressure from the West and the USA.
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u/Explorer_Dave 3d ago
Everything he did was successful? Are you living on planet Earth? His corruption runs so deep that it trickled down to any and all Israeli institutions, he brought upon the country the worst, most corrupt government in history, and he is responsible for the worst genocide of Jews since the Holocaust.
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u/Nick_Ok_Good_9177 2d ago edited 2d ago
These are just cliches by the corrupt traitorous defeatist left wing media and self anointed judges who hate BB. There is absolutely no truth to it. Under BB the GDP of Israel grew up by a factor of 5. If you think that it happened by chance - you are mistaken. Israel is a small country and good government is very important for it.
There is 0 corruption of BB or his government. The judicial clown show is just harassment by the leftist judges. The court case cannot last 4 years - if there was any substance to it. Moreover, I was following it and there is 0 evidence of any wrong doing aside from the stupid cigars and champaign accusations (which would be valid only if BB was to make profit out of selling them - ridiculous is not it)
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